Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

Hi One Sheep,

It’s late here but I had a thought.

What happened to the other thief on the cross?
in Greek it’s actually “evil doer.”

To the “evil doer” that was repentant and asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came to His kingdom Jesus said,
“Today you will be with me in paradise.”

He didn’t say anything to the second one that not only didn’t repent but hurled insults at Him,
It would seem to me that Jesus did not forgive him and that he surely wasn’t going to paradise with Jesus that day.

Luke 23:29

What do you think??

Fran

Hi Fran!

This may come as a Big Surprise to you, but I think that the man on the cross you are referring to did not know what he was doing. We can try to come up with other possibilities.

O.S.,

You know I can’t get the book here, but I did read a little about it online. it’s the best I could do.

While we were yet sinner… Yes. God loved us while we were yet sinners. His grace falls on all or how would we ever get to Him? Let’s remember, though, that the letters in the N.T. were written to believers. So they are NOT sinners anymore.

We are all sinners, are we not?

I like the first concept in the book which is that God is not just waiting around trying to catch you in sin. This reminds me of Ben Carson. He keeps talking about the journalists having a “gotcha” attitude. So, yes. God is certainly not like this.

This is the “works” mentality. Which is wrong. It says that we have to work our way to heaven. We have to do everything just right. It’s like our salvation depends on US instead of depending on Jesus.
So I totally agree with this first concept.

Me too!

The idea of the sacrifice as love and a way to teach life instead of as payment. I have to think on that a bit. It’s a general idea now in the church and is not new. It does seem to me like some payment must be made. ** Why were there sacrifices in the O.T. otherwise?? Is God different in the N.T.? ** I feel very comforted that Jesus paid my debt and I can rest easy. I feel very free in knowing that He covers for my sins.

Did man owe a debt to God? Check this old thread out:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=921366

I know you have seen the Cardinal’s words before, but read it carefully. He turns the “debt” notion upside down.

I remember that thread, that was when it dawned on me that omniscience precludes sense of debt. That is, because God is omniscient, He knew that we would do really bad stuff before He created us, so if He thought Man owed Him anything then he would have wanted to collect the debt from the get-go.

One of my quotes:

In the no-debt view, one presumes that God’s love is unconditional and infinite. One presumes that God does not hold a debt, because he has forgiven “before always”, or that omniscience precludes wrath, precludes desire for punishment, precludes the sense of debt in terms of debt created by offense.

Is the O.T. God different? No way, He’s the same. What is different is that in the OT the Israelis have “conceived a distorted image of God” as explained in CCC 399. Jesus reveals to us who God really is, One who holds nothing against us, not needing a debt payment.

I’m having a really difficult time with the being saved after death idea. I just can’t see this anywhere in scripture. ** You have the book, does it have any proof verses? ** Everything I know from years of reading and studying and depending on my own rapport with God, tells me that I must make up my mind now while I am still alive. If not, then what is faith all about? Why would I need faith if I get a chance after death?

The CCC provided some proof, but I cannot remember what else the Linns said after they explained that Eastern Orthodox do not have the same “death limit”. They did quote several scripture scholars and theologians. I will be back home by Saturday, I can look then.

I’m being reminded of when the N.T. says that in the end days there will be false prophets. Mathew 24:11…

And what about 2 Peter 2:1 and then 2:20 and on to the end of the book.

I read part of Chapter 2. Eyes full of adultery? Expert in greed? You may be comforted talking to my wife, who complains about me trying to give everything away. My eyes are only for her.

Why does the bible keep talking about repenting and converting?

I do believe that once you repent, convert, get faith, are saved, or whatever - THEN you are protected by God’s love. Some of these threads make me a little worried about the posters. Worrying about sinning all the time, about being in mortal sin. That goes too far the other way.

Do you remember what I quoted from my Catholic Bible commentary? Jesus did not speak of salvation in terms of the afterlife, He spoke of salvation in terms of “living life to its fullest” and “being perfect, as God is perfect”. Repentance and conversion are their own reward, development of peace within, inner reconciliation, harmony with all creation, the meaningfulness of living a life of service, of course it is out of love that Jesus talks about repentance!

I gave you too much to respond to again, sorry. Just pick something!

In His love

 

[pocaracas]

I’m having a really difficult time with the being saved after death idea. I just can’t see this anywhere in scripture. ** You have the book, does it have any proof verses? ** Everything I know from years of reading and studying and depending on my own rapport with God, tells me that I must make up my mind now while I am still alive. If not, then what is faith all about? Why would I need faith if I get a chance after death?

Sorry to barge in, and feel free to ignore this slight off-topic of mine.

I think this here question is very important… “what is faith all about?”
God loves all, in his infinite wisdom and mercy and kindness and all that… right?
Why would God care if you have faith in Him?
What difference is a person’s faith supposed to make, to Him?

In my heathen view of things, faith is a human construct, meant to keep people in the fold, while not providing any verifiable reason for it. That’s why it’s, sometimes, so difficult to maintain…

As such, faith can be seen, by a godly world overseer, as a flaw… a human generated flaw, one which clearly leads to some trouble, such as strained inter-faith relationships, and to so much war and suffering… heck, this is even present in the OT!
But the absence of that overseer in human affairs has kept that flaw around…

 

[frangiuliano115]

Sorry to barge in, and feel free to ignore this slight off-topic of mine.

I think this here question is very important… “what is faith all about?”
God loves all, in his infinite wisdom and mercy and kindness and all that… right?
Why would God care if you have faith in Him?
What difference is a person’s faith supposed to make, to Him?

In my heathen view of things, faith is a human construct, meant to keep people in the fold, while not providing any verifiable reason for it. That’s why it’s, sometimes, so difficult to maintain…

As such, faith can be seen, by a godly world overseer, as a flaw… a human generated flaw, one which clearly leads to some trouble, such as strained inter-faith relationships, and to so much war and suffering… heck, this is even present in the OT!
But the absence of that overseer in human affairs has kept that flaw around…

Very interesting.

One Sheep knows me and knows my questions are rhetorical and that I know about faith.

A person’s faith makes a difference to both God and to man.

But more on this later. Doctor’s appt.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

Hey, Folks, we’re on the end-run here, does anyone else have an example to investigate of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God? We still have not been able to come up with a single scenario that holds up to scrutiny!

Since no one has been able to come up with an example, have my observations been confirmed, that no human ever knowingly and willingly rejects God?

 

[davidv]

Hi David,

You are mistaken by saying that the quote was taken out of context. The comment was a stand-alone tweet, it was not drawn from a longer text.

How can one sentence contain the whole of Church teaching on forgiveness?

So, it appears that you have made a false accusation. Do you repent? Well, probably not, because it is likely that you are thinking of the “context” of the Pope’s teachings as a whole. Well then, do you know the Pope’s teachings as a whole? Is he claiming that Jesus did not forgive the unrepentant from the cross? I think not. If you do not know, then your accusation remains unfounded.

Uncharitable judgement of me. Please stop.

It is a bit difficult to find Catholic teachings one way or another. I did run across the book, Good Goats: Healing our Image of God in which the authors support the same conclusion that I had, and their book received an imprimatur from their Bishop.

It is a matter of logic, David, and not deep logic at that. Jesus said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Is He referring to members of the crowd that are suddenly repentant? No, this does not make sense, if they were repentant then they had been enlightened that what they were doing was wrong, Indeed, if there were any repentant there, then the statement does not apply, because they suddenly realized what they were doing.

Is he referring to the bystanders who were simply watching without agreeing with what was going on, and He was forgiving them? If that was the case, then why do Bibles make reference to the same statement made from St. Stephen as the angry crowd was stoning him to death?

Now, I suppose you could say that both St. Stephen and Jesus were speaking to the bystanders. Are you forgetting that Jesus challenges us to go beyond our natural inclination? Any person can forgive the repentant and the bystander, it is the unrepentant that are the hardest to forgive! Yet, when we do not forgive an individual for any reason, that grudge, that resentment, takes away from our wholeness, our holiness.

Have you tried it, David?

That is between me and my confessor.

Have you tried to forgive an unrepentant person and failed? Or is it that you have fears that if God forgives the unrepentant, the whole of Christianity and the human race will turn to mayhem? What is your resistance to what Jesus did from the cross, which was to forgive the unrepentant?

Do you realize that you are promoting non-forgiveness, giving people a reason to hang onto grudges?

How am I doing this? Why are you failing to distinguish between human forgiveness and God’s forgiveness? Our forgiveness must be unconditional. “…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive…” God’s forgiveness is conditioned on the sinners’ repentance.

Indeed, would we want the people of ISIS to refrain from forgiving us because in their eyes we have not “repented”? Do you see the ramifications of attempts to stifle forgiveness? Forgiveness builds the Kingdom.

Do pray on this David. I will pray for you.

I see no Church document cited. Is there one?

If there is logic here, there are one or more missing steps that have not be identified.

 

[davidv]

Hey, Folks, we’re on the end-run here, does anyone else have an example to investigate of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God? We still have not been able to come up with a single scenario that holds up to scrutiny!

Since no one has been able to come up with an example, have my observations been confirmed, that no human ever knowingly and willingly rejects God?

Examples have been given which have been rejected based on the use of invalid logic. Your observations have been shown be incorrectly applied universally. In logic, this is a generic fallacy, and must be rejected as a valid argument.

 

[Aloysium]

Hey, Folks, we’re on the end-run here, does anyone else have an example to investigate of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God? We still have not been able to come up with a single scenario that holds up to scrutiny!

Since no one has been able to come up with an example, have my observations been confirmed, that no human ever knowingly and willingly rejects God?

This proves to me that there is no truth that a person who willfully closes his mind cannot distort.
You have heard what the Catholic Church teaches on this matter; you know it and you have repeatedly rejected it.
Nice job trolling if that is what you are up to.

 

[simpleas]

Hey, Folks, we’re on the end-run here, does anyone else have an example to investigate of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God? We still have not been able to come up with a single scenario that holds up to scrutiny!

Since no one has been able to come up with an example, have my observations been confirmed, that no human ever knowingly and willingly rejects God?

No I don’t think your observations have been confirmed, you may think this because of what you believe/have experienced about God/life, and that is your right

Everyone has their own thoughts on God.

And of course, as we all on this thread agree on, none of us can know if anyone K&WRG, deliberately.

 

[OneSheep]

How can one sentence contain the whole of Church teaching on forgiveness?

Hi David, you are referring to our Holy Father’s tweet:

Pope Francis Verified account
‏@Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

It cannot contain the whole of Church teaching, but it does a wonderful summary, such as “God is Love” is a wonderful summary.

Oh, and concerning charity, your claim that I took the Holy Fathers words out of context was unfounded, David, and that is not an uncharitable statement.

How am I doing this? Why are you failing to distinguish between human forgiveness and God’s forgiveness? Our forgiveness must be unconditional. “…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive…” God’s forgiveness is conditioned on the sinners’ repentance.

Problem is, David, that Jesus calls us to “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. If the Father’s conditional forgiveness is perfect, then that is what we are called to do, to forgive conditionally. You did not address what I said about Jesus forgiving the unrepentant from the cross.

And remember, as we see Jesus forgiving the unrepentant from the cross, we are seeing the Father who sent Him. Again, that is Gospel.

I see no Church document cited. Is there one?

I cited Pope Francis and a book that received an Imprimatur. You have cited the CCC, but your citation did not prove the point, it said nothing about Jesus’ unconditional forgiveness of the crowd.

If there is logic here, there are one or more missing steps that have not be identified.

Here is the logic I presented:

Jesus said, “Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”

Is He referring to members of the crowd that are suddenly repentant? No, this does not make sense, if they were repentant then they had been enlightened that what they were doing was wrong, Indeed, if there were any repentant there, then the statement does not apply, because they suddenly realized what they were doing.

Is he referring to the bystanders who were simply watching without agreeing with what was going on, and He was forgiving them? If that was the case, then why do Bibles make reference to the same statement made from St. Stephen as the angry crowd was stoning him to death?

Now, I suppose you could say that both St. Stephen and Jesus were speaking to the bystanders. Are you forgetting that Jesus challenges us to go beyond our natural inclination? Any person can forgive the repentant and the bystander, it is the unrepentant that are the hardest to forgive! Yet, when we do not forgive an individual for any reason, that grudge, that resentment, takes away from our wholeness, our holiness.

If you find part of this illogical, simply point out the “missing steps”. Please counter the argument with specific points. This is the way discussion works, David, rather than simply saying “it’s all wrong” and walking away. Can you specifically address the points I made about Jesus’ statement? Provide a different interpretation and back it up, please.

David, if you do not believe me about Jesus forgiving the unrepentant, go ask your priest or someone else you trust. Then, get back to me with what they said.

Examples have been given which have been rejected based on the use of invalid logic. Your observations have been shown be incorrectly applied universally. In logic, this is a generic fallacy, and must be rejected as a valid argument.

Again, David, you are making an unfounded statement. I have never rejected an example, I only discouraged examples that were very personal, and I tried unsuccessfully to stay away from the Adam example because of his “preternatural” nature. Actually, every example ended when people could no longer support their argument or simply stopped trying. It’s been a little disappointing, on another attempt at this endeavor two posters really stayed with the investigation until the scenarios were completely examined. In this thread, it really never happened, though we came close with Adam.

From now on, David, please back up your statements with the facts, cite examples! Show me the “invalid logic” rather than pointing and criticizing. Please!

Still praying for you…

 

[OneSheep]

No I don’t think your observations have been confirmed, you may think this because of what you believe/have experienced about God/life, and that is your right

Everyone has their own thoughts on God.

And of course, as we all on this thread agree on, none of us can know if anyone K&WRG, deliberately.

Thanks, Simpleas, for all of your participation.

So, for you, my observations have not been confirmed. If so, please come up with an example to investigate. You must have something in mind, right?

Yes, we can “know for certain” at least with a high degree of certainty, once we exhaust all of the examples, right? Give it one last think. Can you come up with the circumstances of when and how it could actually happen?

Ultimately, Simpleas, there is value in seeing that no one ever K&W rejects God. The value is in seeing human innocence and beauty. Although it may seem otherwise, blindness is an automatically triggered action that happens in the mind. Yes, it can be chosen, but only when the person is already blinded by resentment or desire. Can you see the beauty, Simpleas? Maybe I have asked before…

 

[guanophore]

The compliment is because the person knows I don’t spend a lot of time on threads and I made an effort! Not because it was so great…

Fran

It was both.

 

[guanophore]

Hey, Folks, we’re on the end-run here, does anyone else have an example to investigate of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God? We still have not been able to come up with a single scenario that holds up to scrutiny!

Since no one has been able to come up with an example, have my observations been confirmed, that no human ever knowingly and willingly rejects God?

I agree with David in post 979. You seem determined to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church on this point, prefering your own perceptions better.

So, for you, my observations have not been confirmed.

What I have confirmed is that you willingly and knowingly reject what God has divinely revealed.

Yes, we can “know for certain” at least with a high degree of certainty, once we exhaust all of the examples, right? Give it one last think. Can you come up with the circumstances of when and how it could actually happen?

Human reasoning and perception fall far short of what God has revealed.

Ultimately, Simpleas, there is value in seeing that no one ever K&W rejects God. The value is in seeing human innocence and beauty.

That’s just it, though, OS. Humanity is not innocent and beautiful. The image of God in which we were created has been marred by sin. All have now fallen short of His glory.

 Although it may seem otherwise, blindness is an automatically triggered action that happens in the mind.  Yes, it can be chosen, but only when the person is already blinded by resentment or desire.

You have reached a false conclusion based upon a false premise. Yes, blindness can be automotically truggered in the mind, but there is much more to rejecting God than what is triggered in the human mind. It is the HEART to which God calles and draws all unto Himself. Every soul is given sufficient grace to be saved, and yet, some reject the purpose of God for themselves.

I will pray for you, One Sheep, and all those who have replaced the divine revelation by humanism.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Sorry to barge in, and feel free to ignore this slight off-topic of mine.

I think this here question is very important… “what is faith all about?”
God loves all, in his infinite wisdom and mercy and kindness and all that… right?
Why would God care if you have faith in Him?
What difference is a person’s faith supposed to make, to Him?

In my heathen view of things, faith is a human construct, meant to keep people in the fold, while not providing any verifiable reason for it. That’s why it’s, sometimes, so difficult to maintain…

As such, faith can be seen, by a godly world overseer, as a flaw… a human generated flaw, one which clearly leads to some trouble, such as strained inter-faith relationships, and to so much war and suffering… heck, this is even present in the OT!
But the absence of that overseer in human affairs has kept that flaw around…

Hi Pocaracas,

Your post, in general, made me think of two things.

1. Imagine - John Lennon

People here love to play this song at Christmas time. They all think it’s about love and peace. Which it is - maybe. But how to achieve that love and peace? John wanted to exclude religion for the very reason you state above. All the wars caused in religion’s name, interfaith marriages, etc. Just a bunch of people living for today.

That sounds good. But it won’t ever work. Which brings me to my second thought:

1. If God didn’t exist, man would have created Him.

God is a good thing because He brings a common morality to all men who will accept Him. My biggest problem with atheism is authority. Not because I checked my brain at the door but because there MUST be an authority in ALL situations. Family, school, work, play, etc. You’re a smart guy I think I don’t need to get into detail. So who’s the authority for atheists (and agnostics too)? Are morals subjective? We each get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong? Think of the chaos! I know atheists could be very good and moral people - that’s not the point. If people who know God have a problem - think of those who don’t.

So how do you ever have peace by removing God? Only one way. A totalitarian govt. And who wants that?? (although we do seem headed that way).

Re faith. Faith is good for man. There’s some kind of void in man that makes him seek God. Have you read the first chapter of Romans? Kids need God. So atheists see Him as a crutch. Maybe we need that crutch because we’re limping along without Him? I’ve never understood how anyone could think that man could yearn for something that cannot exist. If we yearn for perfection, it must be because perfection exists (not on this earth!) somewhere. If we yearn for love it must be because love exists. If we yearn for a god it must be because in Him is found both perfection and love.

Faith is good for God because it lets man be a friend of His. He knew from the beginning what a mess we’d make. Why make us at all? The unanswerable question. I’m told it’s to know, love and serve Him. Sounds a bit selfish. There’s stuff going on we can’t know about. The bible is full of the idea that God seeks our love. So our faith is pleasing to Him. Because we believe in Him we could go to be with Him. You can’t go visit a person that you don’t even believe exists, so if you don’t believe I think you won’t be with Him. I don’t really understand it very well. Some things you just accept.

So you could think faith is to keep you in the fold. And which fold is that? I don’t care about folds. It’s nice to be with people who think and believe as you do. It could be reinforcing. I think faith is about acknowledging a higher power and yearning to be near it.

Fran

 

[davidv]

Thanks, Simpleas, for all of your participation.

So, for you, my observations have not been confirmed. If so, please come up with an example to investigate. You must have something in mind, right?

Yes, we can “know for certain” at least with a high degree of certainty, once we exhaust all of the examples, right? Give it one last think. Can you come up with the circumstances of when and how it could actually happen?

Ultimately, Simpleas, there is value in seeing that no one ever K&W rejects God. The value is in seeing human innocence and beauty. Although it may seem otherwise, blindness is an automatically triggered action that happens in the mind. Yes, it can be chosen, but only when the person is already blinded by resentment or desire. Can you see the beauty, Simpleas? Maybe I have asked before…

Beauty does not obscure the ugliness of sin. This denies neither goodness nor evil. Both coexist in our world.

 

[pocaracas]

Hi fran,

Your post, in general, made me think of two things.

I’m always glad to make people think!

1. Imagine - John Lennon
   …]That sounds good. But it won’t ever work. Which brings me to my second thought:

(I removed some of the quote to try to keep this post below the 6000character mark)
It’s about hippie worldwide communism - everyone getting along, sharing all the world.
At least, that’s how I interpret the song.
However, we know all too well that communism doesn’t work, in the long run… something to do with people needing some promise of a reward in order to try harder.
Heaven, can be seen as the ultimate reward, huh?
Doesn’t make it real… but the belief that it is real leads to motivation.

1. If God didn’t exist, man would have created Him.

…]

Most people can live decently with a standard secular authority. Their morals, as with all other social species, comes through empathy… this empathy is mainly intuitive, with some government rules to keep in check those who have faulty intuitions…
Empathy appears to be something that has evolved as social species evolve… think of wolf packs - one alpha male as base authority, but he’s not dealing out any judgement on the behavior of the others among themselves. The others act mostly in such a way as to keep the whole pack healthy and this they do intuitively. Trouble-making wolf behaviors lead to individuals who get kicked out of the pack and struggle to survive and breed. Behaviors that lead to pack survival are passed down the generations. Of course, some parasite bad behaviors do crop up once in a while, and the rest of the pack promptly attempt to minimize the effects.
With people, it must have happened in a similar way, since we were nothing but apes, we were already social… that was over 2 million years ago… 2 millions years of genetically enforcing empathetic behaviors, leading to the survival of the group, while discouraging negative behaviors. Millions of years of evolution of this intuition would have led to a shared set of behaviors towards our fellow humans. So shared and so precise they appear that, upon inspection, they must seem like they’ve been handed out to each of us while still in our mothers’ bellies.

So how do you ever have peace by removing God? Only one way. A totalitarian govt. And who wants that?? (although we do seem headed that way).

Well… perhaps… but that is never a long term thing…
As a transition form of reaching some worldwide cohesion, such a government may be a viable option… but, as all totalitarian governments, it would then decay from the inside and need to be replaced by something else… I don’t know what.

Re faith. Faith is good for man. There’s some kind of void in man that makes him seek God. Have you read the first chapter of Romans? Kids need God. …]

Kids need God?! Oh dear, I think not.
About the first chapter of Romans, I’m not sure I ever read it.
The void I find in man is curiosity… the yearning to answer some questions which don’t seem to have answers… why am I here? What is my worth, in the grand scheme of things? What happens to me and my loved ones when we die? This thing that is me, but is not my body… what happens to it when the body dies? Do other animals have this same inner awareness?
How did we all come to be in here? Why?

Gods (and some extra surrounding details) have been presented as possible solutions to these questions. Solutions which, while self-consistent, have little in terms of factual support.
It is thought that a little piece of more contemporary evolutionary behavior has led to the imbuing, in certain groups, of the God perspective. Those who believe as the rest of the group are kept in the group… those who don’t are outcast… Belief became encouraged, while disbelief was strongly discouraged. This would still be an early piece of evolution but we, in our ignorance, would mistake it as an inner need for God.

Faith is good for God because it lets man be a friend of His. …] Some things you just accept.

Well… I think I can visit someone I don’t believe exists, but I would be getting there unwittingly, unknowingly. Once face-to-face, it would be hard not to accept that the person does exist.
So… why make us? so we love Him and become His friends? Then why keep hidden from most of us?
Oh, he seeks our love? Then why can’t we know about it, except through some seemingly all-too-human institution?

So you could think faith is to keep you in the fold. And which fold is that? I don’t care about folds. It’s nice to be with people who think and believe as you do. It could be reinforcing. I think faith is about acknowledging a higher power and yearning to be near it.

So, you acknowledge that the higher power exists and you want to be with it… But why would that higher power care about it?
Better, why would that higher power value such faith?
I can understand why the “all-too-human institution” would value faith… I think you can understand it too. The fold!
But the higher power? The thing that would, honestly, have no need for such institution in the first place?

(just making you think some more… I hope! )

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Guanonphore,

Nice to have you back! Been busy? I was hoping you would respond to my post 877 with some kind of counterpoint. It seems that we agreed that the Pharisees had “falso notions of God”. What I am observing is that given that they had these false notions, they did not know what they were doing, they did not have in mind all of the information relevant to their actions.

So, do you agree that the Pharisees did not know what they were doing, or do you have a counterpoint?

I agree with David in post 979. You seem determined to reject the teaching of the Catholic Church on this point, prefering your own perceptions better.

Determined? Hmmm. Do you find a perception of mine that runs counter to the teaching of the Church? If so, please let me know.

What I have confirmed is that you willingly and knowingly reject what God has divinely revealed.

Hmmmm (again). Wow, “confirmed” is a pretty solid word there, guanophore. You must have some evidence to back it up! Now, if you would just put forward what you think is evidence of my rejection of Church teaching, you may be correct, but I think not. It is certainly not my intent. So, if you would be so kind as to point out what revelation I am rejecting? Brother, what are you reacting to?

Human reasoning and perception fall far short of what God has revealed.

Please clarify. You might have a point there, depending on what you are talking about.

That’s just it, though, OS. Humanity is not innocent and beautiful. The image of God in which we were created has been marred by sin. All have now fallen short of His glory.

Well, yes, people sin in terms of doing hurtful things to themselves and others, but I am still trying to find examples of people knowingly and willingly doing this. This is where the innocence lies, in that people do evil when they are blind or lacking in awareness. This “lack” is pretty much in line with teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas, right? Just as what happened with the crucifixion, people do not know what they are doing. God did not create us aware, but He created us with the capacity for awareness, and a conscience ready-and-waiting to be filled with parameters.

You have reached a false conclusion based upon a false premise. Yes, blindness can be automotically truggered in the mind, but there is much more to rejecting God than what is triggered in the human mind. It is the HEART to which God calles and draws all unto Himself. Every soul is given sufficient grace to be saved, and yet, some reject the purpose of God for themselves.

Yes, grace is a free gift, and many reject the gift, but again, can you give an example of a knowing and willing rejection? It would be really helpful to your argument if you could come up with an example. Please, go back to the Pharisees, or try to come up with a new example. It is very difficult, believe me. My premise is not based solely on “mind”, I am addressing the human as a whole, the heart included. I have repeatedly emphasized the aspect of “knowing” in “valuing”, such as valuing the unborn. Valuing comes from the heart.

I will pray for you, One Sheep, and all those who have replaced the divine revelation by humanism.

Well, friend, thanks for your prayers! And if you find something that I posted that rejects divine revelation, please put it forward, for I am not intending to reject any divine revelation.

And if you know a “humanist” who quotes Pope Francis, the CCC, scripture, and other Catholic writings as much as I do, and loves Jesus and the Church as I do, it would appear to me that divine revelation is “replacing” his secular ideas! Might as well baptize the fellow…

I look forward to your response!

 

[OneSheep]

Beauty does not obscure the ugliness of sin. This denies neither goodness nor evil. Both coexist in our world.

Hi David,

Were you going to respond to my post 982? Did you ask a priest yet?

Yes, sin is ugly, but people are beautiful (though lacking awareness).

Sin happens, it does not “exist” in the matter/energy sense.

I know, that last sentence was picky-language-stuff, but it is an important distinction.

 

[frangiuliano115]

HI Fran,

The Sacrament of Reconciliation (Which is the most appropriate name) is extremely important for the spirituality of the believer. The sacrament is not a vehicle for forgiveness from God, for God always forgives. The sacrament is a vehicle for the believer to realize God’s forgiveness, to make it real. The sacrament is a means by which the Christian reconnects with God. God is already connected to us, the disconnect is the person ashamed, and the Priest serves to bridge the gap between the individual and his or her own joyful walk with the Lord. Just as shame compelled Adam and Eve to hide from God, we do the same.

In this light, the “type of sin needing to be confessed” is a guide, but tends to make the sacrament more bureaucratic. If a person is extremely ashamed about not having sent a thank you card to someone last year, cannot forgive himself, then it is time to go to confess. Yes, if that happens often, then the person is probably scrupulous, and there is an underlying fear to deal with, i.e., the person fears a condemning God or is insecure in relationships.

Sorry that I am giving you so much to respond to! Just pick something, like you did.

And did you see? You were complimented on one of your latest posts spelling it all out for me. You are not “in the wrong” on these issues. There is room in the Church for other approaches, and I am explaining an approach that most Catholics are unfamiliar with.

Love and Peace

Hi One Sheep,
You know I’m not ignoring you or your thread. It’s always time that is a factor. Some threads are easier to answer - your is more complicated. You bring up so many different ideas.

Here’s something davidv says to you:

How am I doing this? Why are you failing to distinguish between human forgiveness and God’s forgiveness? Our forgiveness must be unconditional. “…forgive us our trespasses as we forgive…” God’s forgiveness is conditioned on the sinners’ repentance.

You well know that we had discussed this way back. I even had said that OUR forgiveness was conditional. You’ll remember my husband and how there are some situations which would not be forgivable. At least if they continued.

So maybe forgiveness and acceptance are two separate things. Maybe I’d forgive in my heart but be unable to accept.

Davidv says God’s forgiveness is conditional. This is important and I had brought it up at the beginning of this thread. I had said how there are different covenants, which you know about. Some were conditional and some were unconditional. The New Covenant is an unconditional covenant. God brought it about, whether we accept it or not. But what did He bring about? The kingship of His Son, the world-wide rule, the universality of His kingdom. David’s kingdom was limited to Israel, Jesus’ kingdom is universal and open to all.

So it’s unconditional.

BUT there is one, little condition. It has be be ACCEPTED by the individual person. If you don’t ACCEPT the covenant you cannot be a part of it. If you accept it, then it becomes unconditional.

What does accepting it mean? It means that you accept Jesus as The Christ, The Messiah, The Son of God, The Annointed One, The High Priest, The Mediator.

If you can accpet this, Jesus will cover for you. No problem. In that case, I agree with everything you’ve said. God will forgive us ANYTHING.

Except blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That is the unforgivable sin. No biblical postings since you know them only too well. Problem is, you have developed your own understanding of them. Which is fine. I have some understandings I get scolded for. No matter. My faith is between God and myself and the two of us will figure it out.

However, the understanding must, at least, be Christian in nature. We have people on these threads that would send everyone to hell because they’re not following one rule or another.

Then we have YOU. Who believes God will just forgive everyone because they don’t know what they are doing. How could we all be so stupid?? People who smoke read on the package: SMOKING CAUSES DEATH. Or whatever it says these days. So they KNOW it could cause their death - but they DECIDE to smoke anyway.

It’s the same O.S. Following God is a matter of the will.

Let me go one step further. I’m willing to forgive everyone. it’s obvious that some don’t know what they’re doing. A young girl getting an abortion because she’s been told the fetus is not human. Like I said, she and God will figure it out. She could REALLY be deceived.

But I’d say that some people I will never forgive. Know why? Because I believe some people are oppressed by satan and I’d say are doing the will of satan. They are so close to satan that I feel I would be forgiving satan.

How’s that for you?

I know you hate to discuss Adam. But it’s a big difference between you and me. You think everybody is good and are just misguided. I think everybody in infected with the sin nature and we must make an effort to bury the Old Man and follow Jesus. You know very well this concept is biblical and I have had trouble understanding why you don’t accept it.

Re the priest idea up there. He’s bridging a gap? That’s so Catholic of you. I say Jesus is bridging the gap. He’s the High Priest. How do you like that? (no posts please. I know the role of a catholic priest) And confession. I agree with you 100%. I’ve said that what may be a sin to me may not be to you. But many don’t understand this although it’s true.

Sorry if I don’t answer specific questions. You know I hate those quote thingies.

Fran

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanonphore,

Nice to have you back! Been busy?

No, I unsubscribed from the thread. I was too frustrated with the steep mountain of denial. I believe that we know about God because He has revealed Himself to humankind. Part of what He has revealed is that all humans are afforded sufficient grace to repent and be saved.

The denial of this basic principle, to me, is a rejection of what God has revealed.

I was hoping you would respond to my post 877 with some kind of counterpoint.

It seems that we agreed that the Pharisees had “falso notions of God”. What I am observing is that given that they had these false notions, they did not know what they were doing, they did not have in mind all of the information relevant to their actions.

Yes, we agreed that they had false notions about the coming of the Messiah. Perhaps they did not grasp all the implications of their decisisons at teh time, but the Scriptures reveal that they had sufficient revelation to make a knowing and willing choice. Unlike the Apostles, they were not willing to choose to trust Jesus without understanding everything. This is the root of human hubris.

So, do you agree that the Pharisees did not know what they were doing, or do you have a counterpoint?

How do you explain the fact that the people went to John for Baptism, and they did not? This choice is a matter of hardness of heart (arrogance). The anawim also knew that Jesus did not fulfill all the prophesies. Even the Apostles thought Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel during his lifetime. They did not let their preconceived notions of what the Messiah would do interfere with following the Truth when He revealed Himself, as the Pharisees did.

So, if you are following me on this, they had false notions about God.  They were certain that God truly meant for them to finally destroy all of their Earthly enemies, and the Messiah would lead them in this endeavor.  When the Pharisees heard "love your enemies", and saw Jesus embracing the "unclean" and "sinners" they were disgusted, this certainly was not God as they knew him.  (And their understanding of God was pretty well supported by the OT, right?)

Yes, the OT does contain these prophesies, but their refusal to accept the OT teachings on mercy and their attitude of disgust comes from a hardness of heart toward God and others. They failed in the first two commandments. When the people heard Jesus teach, their hearts were won over because they were hungry for God’s mercy. The Pharisees did not consider themselves in need of God’s mercy. Their arrogance prevented them from accepting him.

Therefore, a big part of what they were missing in terms of “relevant information” was that God is truly loving and merciful without limit, that His love is not limited to those the Pharisees saw as “chosen”, “clean”, “righteous”, etc. In addition, their enslavement to desire for power blinded them to openness to the truth.

No, they were not missing this information. It was all there with the other info. And Jesus pointed it out to them every chance He got. They had sufficient knowledge of the Scriptures, and sufficient exposure to the Truth Himself. They searched the Scriptures, but they refused to come to Him that they might have life. Choosing not to humble oneself does not come form a lack of knowledge.

Determined? Hmmm. Do you find a perception of mine that runs counter to the teaching of the Church? If so, please let me know.

Honestly, I don’t know what you think. For all I know you can just be playing a game on this thread. But it appears from your post that you reject the teaching of the church on this matter.

Hmmmm (again). Wow, “confirmed” is a pretty solid word there, guanophore. You must have some evidence to back it up! Now, if you would just put forward what you think is evidence of my rejection of Church teaching, you may be correct, but I think not. It is certainly not my intent. So, if you would be so kind as to point out what revelation I am rejecting? Brother, what are you reacting to?

Scripture states that the Pharisees rejected the purpose of God for themselves. You are trying to explain away their rejection by claiming that they did not knowingly or willingly reject God.

 

[guanophore]

Well, yes, people sin in terms of doing hurtful things to themselves and others, but I am still trying to find examples of people knowingly and willingly doing this. This is where the innocence lies, in that people do evil when they are blind or lacking in awareness.

Well, I commend you to your search, fruitless though I believe it is.

Perhaps you are invested in this personally, to excuse yourself.

Yes, grace is a free gift, and many reject the gift, but again, can you give an example of a knowing and willing rejection?

None that you will accept, apparently. If you reject the Scriptures, nothing else seems worth the effort.

It would be really helpful to your argument if you could come up with an example. Please, go back to the Pharisees, or try to come up with a new example. It is very difficult, believe me.

It is not difficult for me OS, because I believe what is written is the inspired and inerrant Word of God - His revelation of Himself to us.

Well, friend, thanks for your prayers! And if you find something that I posted that rejects divine revelation, please put it forward, for I am not intending to reject any divine revelation.

It seems you have twisted it in your mind to make it mean what you want it to mean, so that what has been divinely revealed becomes lost in your pursuit to prove your hypothesis.

I look forward to your response!

I will try to stifle myself again.