Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God?

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, simpleas!

Hi, sorry, just had a busy day, and I hope what I reply with makes some sense!

Here as I read it, you start off speaking of people who say others K&WRG but can not answer why, and then you are speaking of an individual answering why they do evil.
No one thinks they are evil until someone says they are evil IMO.

They cannot answer why because their answer has no depth of understanding. Their answers hit a circle of negativity, and the negativity is the only answer they have.

I have never heard O.S described as a person being part evil.

OS is described as a “stain”, and after the fall, man had “concupiscence”; these are looked upon negatively. One does not have to use the word “evil” to express resentment, one says it with tone and description of consequence.

Apparently satan only tricked the woman, the man knew exactly what he did…
The whole prideful, god wanting example isn’t that easy to understand.

Yes, it is all circular, it is “answers” that only continue to express more negativity:

“The answer is, I (he, they, etc.) deserve blame, blame, blame, and punishment!”

“I don’t care about understanding!, I just think they deserve punishment, and that is that!”

We subconsciously hang onto negativity so that it will continue to motivate us to avoid doing what we condemn. It’s a good thing, but there comes a time to let go.

Like now, for example. I must admit that it came across my mind (a couple days ago) to advocate nuking ISIS. But then, would I not be advocating doing exactly what they did, the killing of innocents? No, such an action is wrong, and my thought in the first place of nuking them indicates that I have not yet forgiven, that I am still blinded by resentment. I am slowly letting go and forgiving. I am praying for understanding.

The Paris attacks were an act of war. Surely many innocent people in Syria have been killed and injured because of airstrikes from France and other nations. The attackers in Paris sought justice, taking the war out of their land and into France gave their enemy a taste of what it is like to have a war in your own land. I can see it. I don’t like it, but I can see it and understand. Lots of anger and resentment involved.

Yes I think you are right,people like to judge, we are al guilty of this, either directly or indirectly, it’s easier not to have to think to much about the who why and what situation, we could just think, certain people are K&WRG because they do not do as we do, they aren’t really part of the church or whatever religion.

It is “easier”, yes, I suppose. I’m not too sure that anyone “likes” to judge, though. It is more like judgment is a triggered emotion like anger. We don’t have much choice in the triggering. We do have a choice to forgive what we judge, though.

We are all innocent to begin with, like no one is born a racist, they are taught to be one.

Maybe this wasn’t how you expected me to reply, but it’s some of what I think.

Thanks

People are taught by others, but people are also taught by experiences. If a person gets hurt enough by a green person, they will learn to stay away from, and resent, green people. It’s very natural and understandable.

Do you understand what I mean by “circular thinking” or “circular reasoning”? You can look it up for more clarification.

Thanks for replying!

 

[simpleas]

Good Morning, simpleas!

They cannot answer why because their answer has no depth of understanding. Their answers hit a circle of negativity, and the negativity is the only answer they have.

OS is described as a “stain”, and after the fall, man had “concupiscence”; these are looked upon negatively. One does not have to use the word “evil” to express resentment, one says it with tone and description of consequence.

Yes, it is all circular, it is “answers” that only continue to express more negativity:

“The answer is, I (he, they, etc.) deserve blame, blame, blame, and punishment!”

“I don’t care about understanding!, I just think they deserve punishment, and that is that!”

We subconsciously hang onto negativity so that it will continue to motivate us to avoid doing what we condemn. It’s a good thing, but there comes a time to let go.

Like now, for example. I must admit that it came across my mind (a couple days ago) to advocate nuking ISIS. But then, would I not be advocating doing exactly what they did, the killing of innocents? No, such an action is wrong, and my thought in the first place of nuking them indicates that I have not yet forgiven, that I am still blinded by resentment. I am slowly letting go and forgiving. I am praying for understanding.

The Paris attacks were an act of war. Surely many innocent people in Syria have been killed and injured because of airstrikes from France and other nations. The attackers in Paris sought justice, taking the war out of their land and into France gave their enemy a taste of what it is like to have a war in your own land. I can see it. I don’t like it, but I can see it and understand. Lots of anger and resentment involved.

It is “easier”, yes, I suppose. I’m not too sure that anyone “likes” to judge, though. It is more like judgment is a triggered emotion like anger. We don’t have much choice in the triggering. We do have a choice to forgive what we judge, though.

People are taught by others, but people are also taught by experiences. If a person gets hurt enough by a green person, they will learn to stay away from, and resent, green people. It’s very natural and understandable.

Do you understand what I mean by “circular thinking” or “circular reasoning”? You can look it up for more clarification.

Thanks for replying!

Hi
Yes I understand circular reasoning.

I think people who say others K&WRG say it because they are doing what they believe is Gods will and the people that do not do Gods will are obviously K&WRG.

They follow the rules, the others do not…simple.

Others have given up on this thread, maybe because they feel like no one listens to what they say, I don’t believe the question titled in this thread can be or will be answered, but going that little bit deeper into why we would think people K&WRG was/is worthwhile, some may think not, as you say, blame and punishment is all that is needed as an answer.When I heard France had bombarded Syria after the attacks I know that this isn’t the way to try and reconcile, I have no idea how they can achieve this, I’m sure that they could though. To think more innocent people will die, causing more resentment, it will only get worse.

Have you seen the charlie chaplin video going around the net/facebook?

 

[OneSheep]

Hi
Yes I understand circular reasoning.

I think people who say others K&WRG say it because they are doing what they believe is Gods will and the people that do not do Gods will are obviously K&WRG.

They follow the rules, the others do not…simple.

Yes, it seems so simple until one looks at the whole situation carefully.

Others have given up on this thread, maybe because they feel like no one listens to what they say,

Do you really think that is the case? I have never just said “you are wrong” I have said, “let’s investigate” or “my experience is different”. But most people do not want to investigate, they just want to make their assertion and go away. A couple of them just seem to come and make insults and general criticism without explaining their insults/criticism. Isn’t that essentially “trolling”?

I don’t believe the question titled in this thread can be or will be answered, but going that little bit deeper into why we would think people K&WRG was/is worthwhile, some may think not, as you say, blame and punishment is all that is needed as an answer.When I heard France had bombarded Syria after the attacks I know that this isn’t the way to try and reconcile, I have no idea how they can achieve this, I’m sure that they could though. To think more innocent people will die, causing more resentment, it will only get worse.

What we can all answer is this, with some careful self-reflection:

Have I ever knowingly and willingly rejected God? I came to a point in my life and looked back. At all times, the answer was no. When I did evil, I did not know what I was doing.

Have you seen the charlie chaplin video going around the net/facebook?

No, want to send me a link?

Have a great day!

 

[simpleas]

Yes, it seems so simple until one looks at the whole situation carefully.

Do you really think that is the case? I have never just said “you are wrong” I have said, “let’s investigate” or “my experience is different”. But most people do not want to investigate, they just want to make their assertion and go away. A couple of them just seem to come and make insults and general criticism without explaining their insults/criticism. Isn’t that essentially “trolling”?

What we can all answer is this, with some careful self-reflection:

Have I ever knowingly and willingly rejected God? I came to a point in my life and looked back. At all times, the answer was no. When I did evil, I did not know what I was doing.

No, want to send me a link?

Have a great day!

Thanks,

Yes and all our experiences are different IMO.

What we can all answer is this, with some careful self-reflection:

Have I ever knowingly and willingly rejected God? I came to a point in my life and looked back. At all times, the answer was no. When I did evil, I did not know what I was doing.

Yes but you can not answer this for the other person. Someone prays and reflects about a situation in their past and comes to the conclusion that they did K&WRG, they did know what they were doing when they did whatever is seen as evil.
You have experienced it differently.
I can see both sides, and if both sides lead a person to freedom, then both are true for the person.

I think it’s ok to post F.B links, so here it is :

facebook.com/capablemen/videos/1086624504704201/?pnref=story

Powerful speech, you may have heard it before, I only heard it a few days ago.
Let me know what you think, and anyone else out there if you wish

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks,

Yes and all our experiences are different IMO.

Yes but you can not answer this for the other person. Someone prays and reflects about a situation in their past and comes to the conclusion that they did K&WRG, they did know what they were doing when they did whatever is seen as evil.

Yes, they may think so, but it is an illusion. I have never found a case yet that holds to any scrutiny: Did you know this? Did you know that? Did you consider this? Were you not blind? etc. If they continue to insist they knew everything and were not subject to blindness, they are simply trying to hang onto self-blame. The fact is that there is a human reason as to why every human does what he does; humans want life, freedom, justice, and many other things. These drives conflict, and that is when problems occur. Humans do not want death, unless death is an escape, a freedom.

“If you have any negativity toward anyone, you are living in an illusion.” - Fr. Anthony De Mello

I agree with him.

You have experienced it differently.
I can see both sides, and if both sides lead a person to freedom, then both are true for the person.

I spent a good part of my life on one side, now I see it differently. I can see both sides too, but both cannot be true for an individual at any one moment. It is a yes/no question. Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God? Both answers are acceptable, but I do not see how they can both simultaneously be held as “true”.

I think it’s ok to post F.B links, so here it is :

facebook.com/capablemen/videos/1086624504704201/?pnref=story

Powerful speech, you may have heard it before, I only heard it a few days ago.

Let me know what you think, and anyone else out there if you wish

Yes, powerful. And very poignant for 1940… and today.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, they may think so, but it is an illusion. I have never found a case yet that holds to any scrutiny: Did you know this? Did you know that? Did you consider this? Were you not blind? etc. If they continue to insist they knew everything and were not subject to blindness, they are simply trying to hang onto self-blame. The fact is that there is a human reason as to why every human does what he does; humans want life, freedom, justice, and many other things. These drives conflict, and that is when problems occur. Humans do not want death, unless death is an escape, a freedom.

“If you have any negativity toward anyone, you are living in an illusion.” - Fr. Anthony De Mello

I agree with him.

I spent a good part of my life on one side, now I see it differently. I can see both sides too, but both cannot be true for an individual at any one moment. It is a yes/no question. Does any human ever knowingly and willingly reject God? Both answers are acceptable, but I do not see how they can both simultaneously be held as “true”.

Yes, powerful. And very poignant for 1940… and today.

True enough…Yes I believe there is a reason for everything, I don’t believe people go out of their way to sin in most all life situations.

I didn’t mean both true at the same time, I meant one holds true for each individual. Sorry that’s my error, not explaining myself well enough!

When a person acknowledges that they have been sinning, thus rejecting the will of God, aren’t they admitting it then? If one doesn’t change their way of thinking/doing they don’t admit/realise anything, when they do it’s an admittance to knowing that what they did was wrong.
But it’s not an admittance to rejecting God, because they don’t believe they were purposely rejecting God because they were “trapped” in said sin.

I found it strange when I landed on CAF that posters told others that they reject God when they don’t keep all the Churches rules on x, y and z.
There is so much that comes with people’s life situations to just be told you reject God, what is written on paper is very different to real life, if you understand what I mean…

Thanks.

 

[frangiuliano115]

True enough…Yes I believe there is a reason for everything, I don’t believe people go out of their way to sin in most all life situations.

I didn’t mean both true at the same time, I meant one holds true for each individual. Sorry that’s my error, not explaining myself well enough!

When a person acknowledges that they have been sinning, thus rejecting the will of God, aren’t they admitting it then? If one doesn’t change their way of thinking/doing they don’t admit/realise anything, when they do it’s an admittance to knowing that what they did was wrong.
But it’s not an admittance to rejecting God, because they don’t believe they were purposely rejecting God because they were “trapped” in said sin.

**I found it strange when I landed on CAF that posters told others that they reject God when they don’t keep all the Churches rules on x, y and z.
There is so much that comes with people’s life situations to just be told you reject God, what is written on paper is very different to real life, if you understand what I mean…
**
Thanks.

Hello Simpleas,

I’ve been on some serious threads and need a break. Not that this one isn’t - it’s just like I feel like it’s an old friend.

Just wanted to say how much I agree with what you wrote up there. Haven’t been following along so I’m not sure what you and One Sheep were talking about - but just to put my two cents in.

It’s like this: The difference between the Letter of the Law and the Spirit of the Law. I guess we each have to come around to understanding it ourselves. I mean, some of these OP questions could get pretty darn silly when I think of Almighty God - the CREATOR and sustainer of the universe and everything in it.

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?”
Job 38: 4-and on.

SO - are we following Christ or are we following rules?? Is there a difference?

Did you hear what the Pope said yesterday down in Rome? He spoke about the door. Jesus knocking at the door of our heart. He said the church is the DOORMAN, NOT the building. Interesting. Who or what do you think the bldg is? The church is just the doorman leading to the building. Think about it.

I’m liking this Pope more and more.

Sorry if I changed the flow of conversation a bit.

No answer is necessary.

Fran

 

[OneSheep]

True enough…Yes I believe there is a reason for everything, I don’t believe people go out of their way to sin in most all life situations.

Just keeping you “on your toes” here! Now, do people ever go “out of their way” to sin, or is it more like people sin when something “gets in the way” of what they want? (with the added blindness or ignorace, of course).

I didn’t mean both true at the same time, I meant one holds true for each individual. Sorry that’s my error, not explaining myself well enough!

Are you on your toes now? Yes, one holds true for each individual, and we can respect that. It doesn’t hurt to challenge the mindset though…

When a person acknowledges that they have been sinning, thus rejecting the will of God, aren’t they admitting it then? If one doesn’t change their way of thinking/doing they don’t admit/realise anything, when they do it’s an admittance to knowing that what they did was wrong.
But it’s not an admittance to rejecting God, because they don’t believe they were purposely rejecting God because they were “trapped” in said sin.

Well, they can truthfully say, with no illusion involved, “I did wrong, I knew it was wrong, and I know it was against God’s will”. However, “knowingly” means did they know, and were they at the moment considering, the gravity of the situation? If a person does something, and later regrets it, what has happened? What has happened is a change of mind about doing the act. That “change of mind” in itself means that there was something missing before in terms of awareness that has changed after the fact of the harmful act. The aware person says “If I had thought of that (i.e. consequence), I wouldn’t have done the act.”

“trapped” is a tricky concept. I remember hearing a psychologist talking on the radio about kleptomaniacs not being able to refrain from stealing. This is truly “pop psychology”. He may be “trapped” in terms of wanting to steal stuff; his mind is compromised. However, it does not excuse his act, which is what the psychologist was implying. Kleptomaniacs have the choice not to steal, they rarely steal in front of police officers or store security.

I found it strange when I landed on CAF that posters told others that they reject God when they don’t keep all the Churches rules on x, y and z.
There is so much that comes with people’s life situations to just be told you reject God, what is written on paper is very different to real life, if you understand what I mean…

Thanks.

Yes, I do know what you mean. There is no basis for saying that a person who rejects/breaks a rule rejects God Himself. To me, that seems to be an assertion made to add consequence to an acts that already has natural consequence. It would be presumptive on my part to think that a person who rejects one of my rules is rejecting me personally. As you pointed out, Adam did not intend to reject God, he seemed appreciative of God both before and after he made his poor choice. Indeed, like I said before, they made the choice to eat the fruit into no big deal, an error on God’s part, “Look at how good it looks! God must be joshing.”

Awareness would have sounded more like, “Something really, really bad is going to happen if we eat this, and it will happen to our children too.” If they ate the fruit after thinking that, then they would have been insane.

Thanks!

 

[OneSheep]

Another call for anyone to present an example of someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God!

Please be ready to support your answer, we will investigate your example.

Thank You!

 

[davidv]

Another call for anyone to present an example of someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God!

Please be ready to support your answer, we will investigate your example.

Thank You!

This poster will be supplying no more examples.

 

[guanophore]

SO - are we following Christ or are we following rules??

Phrasing the question this way seems to indicate that you see these as diametrically opposed to each other, as if you do not believe it is possible to follow Christ AND follow rules.

Is there a difference?

There is especially a difference if you believe that the rules do not come from God, and that “man slipped in there” and created a lot of man-made rules that are just legalistic/Pharasaic and interfere with a relationship with Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Another call for anyone to present an example of someone knowingly and willingly rejecting God!

Please be ready to support your answer, we will investigate your example.

Thank You!

Luke 7:29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John

 

[frangiuliano115]

Phrasing the question this way seems to indicate that you see these as diametrically opposed to each other, as if you do not believe it is possible to follow Christ AND follow rules.

There is especially a difference if you believe that the rules do not come from God, and that “man slipped in there” and created a lot of man-made rules that are just legalistic/Pharasaic and interfere with a relationship with Christ.

First of all, you’re on One Sheep’s thread and should not be disrupting in this way.
Second, i refuse to discuss this ad infinitum.
What do you care what I think? I can think what I will without you having to understand it.

I was replying to a statement Simpleas made:

I found it strange when I landed on CAF that posters told others that they reject God when they don’t keep all the Churches rules on x, y and z.
There is so much that comes with people’s life situations to just be told you reject God, what is written on paper is very different to real life, if you understand what I mean…

Yes. I do see a difference between following Jesus and following rules.
You speak of pharisees:

There is especially a difference if you believe that the rules do not come from God, and that “man slipped in there” and created a lot of man-made rules that are just legalistic/Pharasaic and interfere with a relationship with Christ

And you even quote Luke 7:29:

Luke 7:29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John

So you’ve answered your own question.

Worry about YOUR soul guanophore. People on these threads are adults and can handle themselves what I believe or do not believe.

Also, try to read up on what Pope Francis has been saying.

 

[guanophore]

First of all, you’re on One Sheep’s thread and should not be disrupting in this way.
Second, i refuse to discuss this ad infinitum.
What do you care what I think? I can think what I will without you having to understand it.

The whole point of the threads is to have a discussion, Fran. This thread is in the philosophy section, and you have posed a philosophical question, to which I have responded. One has to wonder, if you are not interested in having the discussion, why are you posting philosophical questions on the thread?

I was replying to a statement Simpleas made:

I found it strange when I landed on CAF that posters told others that they reject God when they don’t keep all the Churches rules on x, y and z.
There is so much that comes with people’s life situations to just be told you reject God, what is written on paper is very different to real life, if you understand what I mean…

Yes, it is a good question for discussion.

It is true that people can reject God by rejecting His commandments. People have been doing this since shortly after humans were created.

Defiance of the disciplines of the Church can also be a rebellion against the authority that has been appointed over us by Christ.

None of us can really determine or judge whether another person is rejecting God. All we can go on is what is posted here in the threads, and none of us know the heart of another.

Yes. I do see a difference between following Jesus and following rules.
You speak of pharisees:

There is especially a difference if you believe that the rules do not come from God, and that “man slipped in there” and created a lot of man-made rules that are just legalistic/Pharasaic and interfere with a relationship with Christ

And you even quote Luke 7:29:

Luke 7:29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John

So you’ve answered your own question.

Worry about YOUR soul guanophore. People on these threads are adults and can handle themselves what I believe or do not believe.

I did not ask any question, Fran. I answered the thread question, and I pointed out to you that you have created a false dichotomy. Jesus created human beings with a need for structure and authority. He meets that need in us by providing boundaries for us and in us. Refusal to accept this structure is a form of rebellion.

The problem, Fran, is not what you think or believe, but what you POST.

 

[OneSheep]

Luke 7:29When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John

Welcome, guanophore!

A new example to investigate! Thank you so much, I really appreciate you bringing this one forward, for I am sure to learn a few things from this.

First of all, if you don’t mind, can we determine what was actually happening there? For example, what were the Pharisees and lawyers rejecting, in their minds? And then, how did “not having been baptized by John” specifically effect their rejection?

Please do not see the tone of those questions as challenging anything, as they are meant to simply clarify what happened.

God Bless you, and thank you so much!

Note: please be patient with my lateness, I have a lot of work lately.

 

[HelenRose]

Hi Folks,

So far, there have been many examples put forth of a person knowingly and willingly rejecting God, but none of them hold up when scrutinized. Note: some examples were put forth where the contributor was not interested in investigating the case.

Given the lack of such example, it is therefore reasonable to conclude that humans do not knowingly and willingly reject God. People lack awareness or are blinded by their resentment or desire, then behave in ways that are hurtful to themselves and/or others.

Actually, I was looking forward to someone coming up with a solid counterexample.

Anyone else want to give it a try?

Thanks for reading!

I don’t think that a person can come up with an example because: We can not know the intent of another person. Only God and the person can know.

The Church, in Her wisdom, and given us a list of what is objectively sinful - both mortal and venial. Our culpability in refusing to accept this knowledge can only be known by God.

 

[simpleas]

Just keeping you “on your toes” here! Now, do people ever go “out of their way” to sin, or is it more like people sin when something “gets in the way” of what they want? (with the added blindness or ignorace, of course).

Are you on your toes now? Yes, one holds true for each individual, and we can respect that. It doesn’t hurt to challenge the mindset though…

Well, they can truthfully say, with no illusion involved, “I did wrong, I knew it was wrong, and I know it was against God’s will”. However, “knowingly” means did they know, and were they at the moment considering, the gravity of the situation? If a person does something, and later regrets it, what has happened? What has happened is a change of mind about doing the act. That “change of mind” in itself means that there was something missing before in terms of awareness that has changed after the fact of the harmful act. The aware person says “If I had thought of that (i.e. consequence), I wouldn’t have done the act.”

“trapped” is a tricky concept. I remember hearing a psychologist talking on the radio about kleptomaniacs not being able to refrain from stealing. This is truly “pop psychology”. He may be “trapped” in terms of wanting to steal stuff; his mind is compromised. However, it does not excuse his act, which is what the psychologist was implying. Kleptomaniacs have the choice not to steal, they rarely steal in front of police officers or store security.

Yes, I do know what you mean. There is no basis for saying that a person who rejects/breaks a rule rejects God Himself. To me, that seems to be an assertion made to add consequence to an acts that already has natural consequence. It would be presumptive on my part to think that a person who rejects one of my rules is rejecting me personally. As you pointed out, Adam did not intend to reject God, he seemed appreciative of God both before and after he made his poor choice. Indeed, like I said before, they made the choice to eat the fruit into no big deal, an error on God’s part, “Look at how good it looks! God must be joshing.”

Awareness would have sounded more like, “Something really, really bad is going to happen if we eat this, and it will happen to our children too.” If they ate the fruit after thinking that, then they would have been insane.

Thanks!

Hi

Just keeping you “on your toes” here! Now, do people ever go “out of their way” to sin, or is it more like people sin when something “gets in the way” of what they want? (with the added blindness or ignorace, of course).

Yes I see this now, more than I ever did before.

“trapped” is a tricky concept. I remember hearing a psychologist talking on the radio about kleptomaniacs not being able to refrain from stealing. This is truly “pop psychology”. He may be “trapped” in terms of wanting to steal stuff; his mind is compromised. However, it does not excuse his act, which is what the psychologist was implying. Kleptomaniacs have the choice not to steal, they rarely steal in front of police officers or store security.

Yes so they have the ability to not steal, because they can control it when they need to, but only where they would be caught and punished by the authority. Overcoming it maybe a struggle for them, but it seems it can be achieved (i don’t know about this condition)

As for sin against God/self and other, I wonder about human development, how we are exposed to life as child and how we cope with situations that can lead us into sin, we like the thief may not sin incase we are caught, but if noone is looking we may go ahead and sin, why do we not have some sort of trigger to remind us that God is watching?

I mean, we have the treat of hell as the eternal punishment, but while we are alive we don’t fear hell as a punishment like we may fear being imprisoned in this life.

Sorry if I’m going off topic now…my thoughts just wondered…:whacky:

 

[guanophore]

Welcome, guanophore!

A new example to investigate! Thank you so much, I really appreciate you bringing this one forward, for I am sure to learn a few things from this.

First of all, if you don’t mind, can we determine what was actually happening there? For example, what were the Pharisees and lawyers rejecting, in their minds? And then, how did “not having been baptized by John” specifically effect their rejection?

Please do not see the tone of those questions as challenging anything, as they are meant to simply clarify what happened.

God Bless you, and thank you so much!

Note: please be patient with my lateness, I have a lot of work lately.

Good questions, certainly. I am not sure there is enough detail in the text to answer them all, but I agree, it is an interesting investigation.

I often use this verse when debating with monergists. Calvanists believe that God rejenerates whoever He wills, without their consent. If that is the case, then how can anyone truly knowingly and willingly reject His purpose for themselves?

The baptism of John was not meant to be regenerational, but for repentance. That means that accepting it was an act of faith, and not necessarily transformational in itself, as we believe Christian baptism is.

 

[OneSheep]

Hi

Yes I see this now, more than I ever did before.

Yes so they have the ability to not steal, because they can control it when they need to, but only where they would be caught and punished by the authority. Overcoming it maybe a struggle for them, but it seems it can be achieved (i don’t know about this condition)

As for sin against God/self and other, I wonder about human development, how we are exposed to life as child and how we cope with situations that can lead us into sin, we like the thief may not sin incase we are caught, but if noone is looking we may go ahead and sin, why do we not have some sort of trigger to remind us that God is watching?

I mean, we have the treat of hell as the eternal punishment, but while we are alive we don’t fear hell as a punishment like we may fear being imprisoned in this life.

Sorry if I’m going off topic now…my thoughts just wondered…:whacky:

Not off-topic at all simpleas! Yes, wouldn’t it be nice to be constantly aware of the “eye” shown in so much Christian art (a loving eye, hopefully). Yet, we do not have this constant awareness, only that whch we have in prayer. In the mean time, even if Christ is our center, we are subject to automatic blindness.

Is God watching with that “threat of hell”, though? Or is God watching with open arms, like that of the prodigal son’s father? Depends on the individual, as you know…

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think that a person can come up with an example because: We can not know the intent of another person. Only God and the person can know.

The Church, in Her wisdom, and given us a list of what is objectively sinful - both mortal and venial. Our culpability in refusing to accept this knowledge can only be known by God.

Very good point, Helen Rose. What I am attempting on the thread here is to not try to discern what exactly was going on in an individual person’s mind, but what are all the possibilities of what goes on in the human mind. The possibilities are finite, they can all be investigated. So if you can think of an example, put it forward! Be inventive.

Notice: I said what goes on in the human mind. Part of this thread is anthropology.

For example, a human may take a risk to do an adventure that risks his life, but it would be unhuman (without some very unusual circumstances) for him to take the same risk if it would adversely effect his children and grandchildren.

God Bless.