Does anybody else find the title "Traditional Catholicism" a bit offensive?

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Obviously, the “Traditional Catholicism” represents all Latin Catholics, TLM or NOM, at least on the CAF. I believe that this implies that Western/Latin Catholicism is indeed more “Traditional” than Eastern Catholicism. Does anybody have any thoughts on that?
It’s a forum, what can you do?

On topic, you’re misinterpreting the term “Traditional Catholicism.” It loosely refers to Roman Catholics who reject the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council as being as re-set or rebirth for the Church and adhere to the worldview that more-or-less defined Catholicism before the council.

It is in no way a reference to Eastern Catholicism.
 
As an aside, the few Eastern Catholics I know feel much more comfortable talking with Catholics who identify themselves as “traditional” than they do with mainstream Roman Catholics. They don’t see the “traditional” part as a having anything to do with the Eastern part of the Fath. They just prefer being with Catholics who venerate tradition as much as they do.
 
The problem is when some begin to suggest that the presence of the Latin Mass is somehow an indication of a greater personal faithfulness to the magesterium, a more faithful obedience to the Pope, and in some extreme cases even suggesting that attending the Tridentine Mass leads to greater personal holiness.

-Tim-
Anyone who would think that, even at a subconscience level, would probably be surprised to learn that even the Holy Father’s private daily Mass is the NO said in Italian.

There is a reason it is called the the Ordinary and the EF is called the “extra” Ordinary.
 
On topic, you’re misinterpreting the term “Traditional Catholicism.” It loosely refers to Roman Catholics who reject the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council as being as re-set or rebirth for the Church and adhere to the worldview that more-or-less defined Catholicism before the council.

It is in no way a reference to Eastern Catholicism.
Xzereus,

I agree with Rich here. You have misunderstood the meaning of “Traditional Catholicism”

It’s has nothing to do with Eastern Catholicism. It has to do with pre- and post- Vatican II Roman Catholics. 🙂
 
The problem is when some begin to suggest that the presence of the Latin Mass is somehow an indication of a greater personal faithfulness to the magesterium, a more faithful obedience to the Pope, and in some extreme cases even suggesting that attending the Tridentine Mass leads to greater personal holiness.

-Tim-
Both Masses may make saints, though so far I think all our canonized saints found their vocations from worshipping in what is now called the Extraordinary Form.

In his private writings the Holy Father has criticized much in the Ordinary Form while praising the Extraordinary Form, so even if we must formally adhere to Summorum Pontificum’s statement the the two forms of the rite are equal, I think we may be excused from believing that in our hearts, especially where disposing the faithful to receive the grace of the Sacrament is concerned.
 
It loosely refers to Roman Catholics who reject the interpretation of the Second Vatican Council as being as re-set or rebirth for the Church and adhere to the worldview that more-or-less defined Catholicism before the council.
I think that anybody who holds to the view that Vatican II was a re-birth for the Church has already separated themselves from the Catholic Church since this is an impossibility for the Church of Christ. It’s not just traddies who should be rejecting such a view, it’s everybody. That’s what’s slowly been happening in the last 20 years, and much more so in the last 5 years at a quicker rate. Slowly traditionalism is being vindicated. Sadly, many still believe (as most believed 40 years ago) that Vatican II made a new Church. One hears it in phrases such as “Vatican II did away with that”, apologies for the Inquisition and the Crusades and other such things (cliche or not). It’s also very apparent, unfortunately, in a complete lack of reference, knowledge and reverence for anything that happened before the the council. Hence the lack of references in much of mainstream Catholic information/pastoral letters/Catechisms to previous councils or the great Doctors of the Church (Aquinas is a small exception, he is casually mentioned every so often, but otherwise we hear nothing of St. Alphonsus, et al).

Catholics are slowly starting to “get it”. If they want to belong to the Church now; they have to acknowledge that it existed before 1965 - and not only existed, but flourished as one and the same institution founded by Jesus Christ.

People are also slowly waking up to the contradictions in the apologetics for the great flourishing that was meant to happen by Church leaders desperately trying to conform the Church to the world. On the one hand, we have those who say that the post-Vatican II period has been a failure only because of the social and political situation in which the Church found herself in. This answer, however, doesn’t account for the promise that was made - namely, that the council would be conforming to the world in a new way; that is to say, that it would try to remodel the Church precisely so to conform to the changing world! So this response hardly works. On the other hand, we see those who say that the post-Vatican II period has been a massive success. To this one can hardly think of a way to respond, since the statistics, experiences and facts simply show the opposite to be true - we simply must admit that there is a massive crisis.

The only solution is to take the position of the ‘traditionalist’ (which does not refer to the SSPX) and say that there is a crisis, and the way to get out of it is to stop trying to make this Divine Institution a worldy-institution (which leads to banal liturgical practice, false-ecumenism, “social justice” with no mention of Christ, indifferentism, abuse scandals etc). That is all the traditionalist is trying to do. We are not trying to reset the clock. That would be a fools game. We are carrying on as normal, within the Church, as fully informed Catholics armed to the teeth with faith, hope and charity. Let the world understand once again that the Catholic Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, founded by Christ and the only Church of God. There will come a time when the Ecclesia Dei Commission is no longer necessary; it will become redundant. That will be the same time when there are no longer two ‘forms’ of the Roman Rite but one glorious Roman Rite (with respect to the Eastern Rites too) which praises God in all His Infinite Majesty.

Laudetur Jesus et Maria semper Virgo!

Pax vobiscum
 
XZereus,

This may help with the confusion. The subtitle of the “Traditional Catholicism” forum reads “Forum for discussion of traditional Roman Catholic spirituality”

It really isn’t pitting the Roman tradition against the Eastern Catholicism. 🙂
 
I find the name “traditional Catholic” to be rather a misnomer.

All Catholics are to receive and hand on “Tradition” as part of being Catholic (thus be “traditional” ).

I know the term is used by some…often to denote a preference for the a particular period in Church history but I would love if they found a different one.

Let us all profess and live the Catholic Faith – in full communion with Peter (Pope Benedict XVI).

Following Jesus Christ Our Lord with great joy!
 
Maybe change the forum title to “Roman Catholicisim”?
This would identify it as referencing the traditions and culture of the Latin or Roman Church as opposed to the various Eastern Catholic Churches, all being in communion with the Pope.
 
Both Masses may make saints, though so far I think all our canonized saints found their vocations from worshipping in what is now called the Extraordinary Form.
Patrick the Nitpicker here. 😃

Not all saints worshipped in the EF: leaving aside saints who came from the East, what about saints and blessed like Pope Gregory the Great (who lived before the Roman liturgy had acquired influences from the rites of Gaul - thanks to the Franks - and become closer to the EF we know) or Recusant Catholics (who would have used the Use of Salisbury, aka the Sarum Rite) or John Vianney (who actually used the Rite of Lyons) or Blessed Alfredo Ildefonso Schuster (archbishop of Milan during WWII and a champion of its Ambrosian Rite, right up there with fellow former archbishops Achille Ratti, the future Pius XI, and Giovanni Battista Montini, aka Paul VI)? Remember that the liturgy of Rome is but one out of many that once existed in the West. 😉
 
Patrick the Nitpicker here. 😃

Not all saints worshipped in the EF: leaving aside saints who came from the East, what about saints and blessed like Pope Gregory the Great (who lived before the Roman liturgy had acquired influences from the rites of Gaul - thanks to the Franks - and become closer to the EF we know) or Recusant Catholics (who would have used the Use of Salisbury, aka the Sarum Rite) or John Vianney (who actually used the Rite of Lyons) or Blessed Alfredo Ildefonso Schuster (archbishop of Milan during WWII and a champion of its Ambrosian Rite, right up there with fellow former archbishops Achille Ratti, the future Pius XI, and Giovanni Battista Montini, aka Paul VI)? Remember that the liturgy of Rome is but one out of many that once existed in the West. 😉
Don’t forget St. Stephen, and all the early, early Church saints and martyrs? Surely they did not know in their lives what is today considered the “extra-ordinary” form of the Mass.
 
Don’t forget St. Stephen, and all the early, early Church saints and martyrs? Surely they did not know in their lives what is today considered the “extra-ordinary” form of the Mass.
And the Apostles. 😃
 
I find the name “traditional Catholic” to be rather a misnomer.

All Catholics are to receive and hand on “Tradition” as part of being Catholic (thus be “traditional” ).

I know the term is used by some…often to denote a preference for the a particular period in Church history but I would love if they found a different one.

Let us all profess and live the Catholic Faith – in full communion with Peter (Pope Benedict XVI).

Following Jesus Christ Our Lord with great joy!
 
And the Apostles. 😃
The nitpicking is fair but at least their various liturgies were more unified than the single liturgy of the Ordinary Form. I mean, they all used the Canon didn’t they?

My apologies for forgetting the Easterners again, it’s a bad habit of mine.
 
Your analogy is somewhat flawed. There have always been, to whatever extent, Catholics who used contraception, didn’t make use of Confession, abandoned the Church in adulthood and priests who delivered uninspiring sermons. Before 1969 all alike were attending the TLM, so the form of Mass doesn’t seem to be a guarantee against anything.
The difference is, many Catholics believe nowadays you can do these things and still be Catholic. And they are not contradicted from the pulpit or sobered by the mass.

Why?

Because it’s Pentecost 365 in the Roman Catholic Church. Everything is celebrated. I’ve heard the language of celebration is even put into funeral masses. So if it’s Gaudete all the time, where do I, as an N.O. mass goer, get any idea that God must also be propitiated? That I am a sinner and could go to Hell? Nowhere.

The experiment has failed. It’s time for change. A change we can believe in. A change back.
 
Don’t forget St. Stephen, and all the early, early Church saints and martyrs? Surely they did not know in their lives what is today considered the “extra-ordinary” form of the Mass.
This is how the Protestants went astray: The idea that, if we could only get back to whatever the early Christians had, we’d have a better religion. It’s also a back-handed insult to our forefathers: that for 1700 years their Mass was deficient and we, by making HUGE changes, have improved it in the space of 5.
 
Maybe change the forum title to “Roman Catholicisim”?
This would identify it as referencing the traditions and culture of the Latin or Roman Church as opposed to the various Eastern Catholic Churches, all being in communion with the Pope.
That’s what’s in the description of this sub-forum. We discuss traditional Roman Catholicism here.
 
The difference is, many Catholics believe nowadays you can do these things and still be Catholic. And they are not contradicted from the pulpit or sobered by the mass.

Why?

Because it’s Pentecost 365 in the Roman Catholic Church. Everything is celebrated. I’ve heard the language of celebration is even put into funeral masses. So if it’s Gaudete all the time, where do I, as an N.O. mass goer, get any idea that God must also be propitiated? That I am a sinner and could go to Hell? Nowhere.

The experiment has failed. It’s time for change. A change we can believe in. A change back.
this may be correct in your local OF parish, but in the my diocese, these and other teachings of the Chruch are upheld, preached upon, and we are all encouraged to follow the teachings of the Church.
 
Yes, the term annoys me, because I believe that Catholicism is traditional.

I am what people would call “traditional,” but I don’t want to concede that it’s an option, so I never say it. 😃
 
xzereus;9042760 said:

Latin Catholics, TLM or NOM, at least on the CAF. I believe that this implies that Western/Latin Catholicism is indeed more “Traditional” than Eastern Catholicism. Does anybody have any thoughts on that?

Usually “traditional Catholicism” refers to those who prefer the TLM or claim it is a better form of Mass. At its most extreme, it may include people who do not accept that the OF is valid, although these are not likely to post on CAF.

There are no implications regarding Eastern Catholicism from this term.
 
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