Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[psalm90]

Part I

… What would the world be like without her “Yes” to conceiving the Son of God? …

So many people say this and it has a real rough edge to it, to me.

This question is not totally rhetorical. If that really happened, I think the Lord would have managed to fulfill His promises in some other way. Can we get “past” this “fiat” stuff? Nobody is strong enough to absolutely defeat the will of God.

The rhetorical aspect of that question is just speculation.

furthermore, what about all the ***other ***people in the geneology of Jesus who also said “yes”? For example, what if Boaz had not allowed Ruth to glean in his fields? Then the geneology would simply have gone another way to fulfill the promise of the Messiah.

The “what if” questions really don’t address the evangelization of people as in the OP. It’s arguing “from the negative.”

Part II

Mary is the leading female personality in the Bible. It behooves every Christian to deal with this.

She is the one who will be called blessed by all generations.

She is the **one **who was the living ark of the covenant.

She is the one who is called blessed among women.

She is the one who is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

She is the **one **woman who is the witness of Jesus private and public life.

She is the one who is the queen (mother) of Jesus the King.

She is the one whose virginity reflects the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah.

She is the one who was full of grace.

She is the one who declared herself the servant of the Lord.

She is the one who says “do whatever He tells you.”

She is the one who is the prototype of all motherhood and unquestionably our spiritual mother.

She is the one who is pre-eminently present at Pentecost, the birth of the Church.

All of this is just off the “top of my head,” Every Christian has to deal with this. Mary is the transitional Christian between Judaism and the Kingdom of God on earth.

All you “full bible” protestants: these are all biblical principles about Mary.

She is the one chosen by God which is all the reason we should pay attention to her.

She is the one of whom Jesus says “behold thy mother.”

Intercessional prayer is firmly a principle of New Testament theology. Mary has been an early focal point of intercessional prayer in the Church.

 

[OneForTruth]

Part I

So many people say this and it has a real rough edge to it, to me.

This question is not totally rhetorical. If that really happened, I think the Lord would have managed to fulfill His promises in some other way. Can we get “past” this “fiat” stuff? Nobody is strong enough to absolutely defeat the will of God.

The rhetorical aspect of that question is just speculation.

furthermore, what about all the ***other ***people in the geneology of Jesus who also said “yes”? For example, what if Boaz had not allowed Ruth to glean in his fields? Then the geneology would simply have gone another way to fulfill the promise of the Messiah.

The “what if” questions really don’t address the evangelization of people as in the OP. It’s arguing “from the negative.”

Part II

Mary is the leading female personality in the Bible. It behooves every Christian to deal with this.

She is the one who will be called blessed by all generations.

She is the **one **who was the living ark of the covenant.

She is the one who is called blessed among women.

She is the one who is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

She is the **one **woman who is the witness of Jesus private and public life.

She is the one who is the queen (mother) of Jesus the King.

She is the one whose virginity reflects the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah.

She is the one who was full of grace.

She is the one who declared herself the servant of the Lord.

She is the one who says “do whatever He tells you.”

She is the one who is the prototype of all motherhood and unquestionably our spiritual mother.

She is the one who is pre-eminently present at Pentecost, the birth of the Church.

All of this is just off the “top of my head,” Every Christian has to deal with this. Mary is the transitional Christian between Judaism and the Kingdom of God on earth.

All you “full bible” protestants: these are all biblical principles about Mary.

She is the one chosen by God which is all the reason we should pay attention to her.

She is the one of whom Jesus says “behold thy mother.”

Intercessional prayer is firmly a principle of New Testament theology. Mary has been an early focal point of intercessional prayer in the Church.

This does not give the right for what is written in the Marian Devotional Books that I see where she appears as the fourth member of the trinity (not in word but in description). The prayer that I have posted above also reflects this devotion…what you have written is mere human rationalization for an unbiblical set of Marian doctrines.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[StevenFrancis]

My husband and I are considering converting to Catholicism, but he is having a hard time with “Maryology”. He tells me that he wants to worship Jesus and not go to a “middleman”… Any suggestions???

Yes. Enroll in RCIA. The whole first part of it is discernment and questioning. The correct view of Mary, and why she is a blessing for us and not a problem is the subject of hundreds of books. It could never really be answered here. Just start the process of coming to us, read Revelations regarding the Queen of Heaven, or in the Gospels where it says blessed are you among women, and ALL generations call call you blessed, etc. You don’t HAVE to grasp it all. Many life long Catholics struggle just as hard with Mary as they do with Trinity. They are nearly beyond man’s full comprehension. We must trust Christ, and his Church.

Oh…here I go again. I’m always recommending some Scott Hahn book or another, but I can’t help it. They are all SO useful. It’s such an inexpensive and enjoyable way to unlock whole vast areas of one’s heart and mind.

In this case PLEASE read Hail Holy Queen. (I’m usually plugging The Lamb’s Supper, and actually, that book will help with Mary, The Mass, AND The Eucharist to boot!!!), but Hail Holy Queen gives a very reasonable and excellent primer that will be quite understandable regarding Mary.

I’ll pray for your conversion and guidance.

Peace,

Yours in Christ,

Steven

 

[OneForTruth]

My point in posting was not to go back and forth but to show that Mary is more than a prayer partner according to Catholic Marian Theology. Some were posing this as “all that she is”.

By the way…the Trinity can be shown in scripture although it is not so explicitly presented…Mary’s omnipresence and apparent “power” cannot.

 

[ChristianVet]

This does not give the right for what is written in the Marian Devotional Books that I see where she appears as the fourth member of the trinity (not in word but in description). The prayer that I have posted above also reflects this devotion…what you have written is mere human rationalization for an unbiblical set of Marian doctrines.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

This is not an example of the Lord denigrating His mother. Many protestants assume so, but it is not. He has the highest of praise for her as did the people praising her for being His mother. What Jesus was doing was not only agreeing with them but suggesting that those who follow Him, would also be so blessed.

It is a matter of understanding his culture and language. English speaking Christians should not assume literal translations. It would be very helpful to study the culture that Jesus lived in, to really understand the context. Nevertheless, our own prejudices will prevent us from seeing the Truth, if we Choose not to.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let us tell the whole truth about Marian devotion within Catholicism…this is a true prayer from Pope John Paul II - I received this from someone (A Catholic) here on the forum.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

Prayer is worship…Prayer is a SPIRTUAL SACRIFICE.

No, not all prayer is worship. There is praise, thanksgiving, intercession, worship, and silent listening.

However, it is also true that prayer is a conversation. Talking to Mary is not a problem.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Mannyfit75]

My point in posting was not to go back and forth but to show that Mary is more than a prayer partner according to Catholic Marian Theology. Some were posing this as “all that she is”.

By the way…the Trinity can be shown in scripture although it is not so explicitly presented…Mary’s omnipresence and apparent “power” cannot.

But the word Trinity isn’t in the Bible it is implied. Mary has no power. Mary in Catholicism is venerated due to that she is the Mother of the Lord, Jesus Christ. She is in essence a spiritual mother.

I have said the same thinks to my own Mother that Pope John Paul II said, does that make me guilty of idol worship? You need to get this misconception out of your head that we worship Mary.

And there is No Catholic doctrine that Mary is omnipresence. This is the first I heard of it. I even read the Catechism and that mentions nothing concerning that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This does not give the right for what is written in the Marian Devotional Books that I see where she appears as the fourth member of the trinity (not in word but in description).

This is not Catholic doctrine.

Devotional books use the language of love…not of precise theology.

Your wife is probably not the most beautiful woman in the world, but you’ve probably told her she is.

Get the point?

 

[NonDenom]

QUOTE=ChristianVet;2299597]It is worth noting that Martin Luther never had one problem with devotion to Mary. That came much later, after protestants rejected the papacy.

Hi
Sorry, but your wrong on this, Martin Luther did have a problem with Maryian devotion. One of the things Martin said of the pope is that he is doing the work of satin, so it didn’t come later.

Could it be that this rejection of Mary stems from a reprobate mind, one that rebels against what Christ intended for His Church on earth? I just wonder if this could be a root cause for why so many protestants reject Mary.

I’m not a Roman Catholic and I don’t “Reject” Mary.
Mary was without a doubt the most incredible woman alive to have to be chosen to carry and deliver our Lord and Savior. Just remember this, It was Joseph’s YES that played a part as well, if he had cast her out she would have been stoned to death.

Clearly, Christ loves His Mother and desires that we know and appreciate her particular role in the salvation of mankind.

Wouldn’t he love Joseph as well, where’s the Josephien devotion?

She said yes, but she could have said no.

So did Joseph

Her humble yes brought forth our Lord and Saviour.

Hi humble yes save Mary’s life

She is only a creature and not to be worshipped, but of all of God’s creatures, she is to be the most revered.

What about Joseph? MAN-HATER!. Just kidding, but that is an interesting thought about Joseph. Think I’ll start a thread on it.
In Him and Only him

 

[OneForTruth]

No, not all prayer is worship. There is praise, thanksgiving, intercession, worship, and silent listening.

However, it is also true that prayer is a conversation. Talking to Mary is not a problem.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

Regardless of whether or not we agree that prayer is worship…this is not “talking to Mary”…read the prayer…it is a giving of one’s self to her completely…as if to bow down before her, prostrate. Whether you like it or not, this is idolatry.

Last time that I said that something was implied, I got my head ripped off. I am noticing that you are allowed to use this term. Yes, the Trinity is implied in scripture (I said the same thing by saying it was not presented explicitly)…however Mary’s “omnipresence” and “power” as a “refuge” are not implied anywhere - your presentations of these implications are very far-fetched. She is a grave stumbling block (as you present her), although I do say that she was a Christian to be marked as one to follow as an example like Peter or Paul.

 

[ricmat]

Regardless of whether or not we agree that prayer is worship…this is not “talking to Mary”…read the prayer…it is a giving of one’s self to her completely…as if to bow down before her, prostrate. Whether you like it or not, this is idolatry.

Last time that I said that something was implied, I got my head ripped off. I am noticing that you are allowed to use this term. Yes, the Trinity is implied in scripture (I said the same thing by saying it was not presented explicitly)…however Mary’s “omnipresence” and “power” as a “refuge” are not implied anywhere - your presentations of these implications are very far-fetched. She is a grave stumbling block (as you present her), although I do say that she was a Christian to be marked as one to follow as an example like Peter or Paul.

I’m not familiar with the prayer you quoted, or if it originated with JP2 or not. But giving one’s self to she who will “Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus” doesn’t seem like idolatry to me.

At the foot of the cross, Jesus gave to mankind (John as the proxy) Mary as our spiritual mother, and the mother of the Church. Yes, we are allowed to go to our mother for refuge, and she will lead us to Christ.

But really, idolatry cannot be identified by a casual observer, since you don’t know what’s in someone else’s mind - whether or not they consider the alleged idol to be God or a representation of God. I’m sure that Protestant reverence for the bible appears to be “worship” to some casual observers.

 

[newbetx]

Thanks everyone. I am learning a lot on here. I have a lot of learning to do!!!

Thanks again.

Great to have you along. It’s been a long slow journey for me since RCIA in 88, but with the help of this forum and several great books out there, I’m picking up the pace. BTW, it was only in the last year that I started saying the Rosary… Yes, we all have a lot of learning to do… But what got me going was Kimberly Hahn’s quote: “If you are not moving forward in your faith, you are falling behind” or something like that. That kicked my patootie, I tell you!

What process are you going through? RCIA? Consultation?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Regardless of whether or not we agree that prayer is worship…this is not “talking to Mary”…read the prayer…it is a giving of one’s self to her completely…as if to bow down before her, prostrate. Whether you like it or not, this is idolatry.

Last time that I said that something was implied, I got my head ripped off. I am noticing that you are allowed to use this term. Yes, the Trinity is implied in scripture (I said the same thing by saying it was not presented explicitly)…however Mary’s “omnipresence” and “power” as a “refuge” are not implied anywhere - your presentations of these implications are very far-fetched. She is a grave stumbling block (as you present her), although I do say that she was a Christian to be marked as one to follow as an example like Peter or Paul.

There is no Catholic doctrine that states Mary is omnipresence or power.

The language of prayers invoke metaphors and symbolic usage. When a Protestant like yourself look at a prayer like the one that Saint Pope John Paul said it is usually taken out of context.

You like you with the Bible, interpret the prayers as if you understand it. You don’t.

 

[psalm90]

This does not give the right for what is written in the Marian Devotional Books that I see where she appears as the fourth member of the trinity (not in word but in description). The prayer that I have posted above also reflects this devotion…what you have written is mere human rationalization for an unbiblical set of Marian doctrines.

Luke 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Let it be said that the Catholic Church recognizes the trend for excess devotion to Mary. This is addressed in Lumen Gentium of Vatican II, Chapter8 paragraph67
"Let them carefully refrain from what ever might by word or deed lead the separated sisters and brothers or any others whatsoever into error about the true doctrine of the church.

 

[BloodStaindRose]

Asking for Mary’s intercession is just like asking your friends/family to pray for you…except you’re asking the Mother of God to pray for you…think of the power in that!!

 

[levi86]

Regardless of whether or not we agree that prayer is worship…this is not “talking to Mary”…read the prayer…it is a giving of one’s self to her completely…as if to bow down before her, prostrate. Whether you like it or not, this is idolatry.

Last time that I said that something was implied, I got my head ripped off. I am noticing that you are allowed to use this term. Yes, the Trinity is implied in scripture (I said the same thing by saying it was not presented explicitly)…however Mary’s “omnipresence” and “power” as a “refuge” are not implied anywhere - your presentations of these implications are very far-fetched. She is a grave stumbling block (as you present her), although I do say that she was a Christian to be marked as one to follow as an example like Peter or Paul.

Have you read of Collyridianism? These people worshiped Mary in a manner similar to that which you associate with many modern Catholics. The Church’s opposition to this movement was overwealmingly severe.

The Church detests worship of the Virgin Mary, as history affirms.

 

[Mary3]

Get Tim Staple’s set of CDs about Mary. They’re awesome!

Also, Scott Hahn’s book, Hail, Holy Queen.

Both are excellent resources for Protestants.

Another helpful resource is “Introduction to Mary” by Dr. Mark Miravalle. He deals right up front with the definitions of ‘worship’, ‘veneration’ and whether ‘prayer’ is the same as ‘worship’.

To some, these are just semantics, but the definitions of these words are critical in understanding a proper devotion to Mary. Protestants and Catholics disagree on their view of Mary due to subtle differences in our understanding of these words.

 

[secular]

there is no need to prey to mary maryology was something concorted in the church many years ago by the blue army,this is total nonsence.we have one savior and besides that mary was a sinner and not jesus.she also wasn`t a virgin.

 

[levi86]

there is no need to prey to mary maryology was something concorted in the church many years ago by the blue army,this is total nonsence.we have one savior and besides that mary was a sinner and not jesus.she also wasn`t a virgin.

:clapping:

The best arguments are those that have no evidence, scriptural, historical or otherwise.

 

[LilyM]

there is no need to prey to mary maryology was something concorted in the church many years ago by the blue army,this is total nonsence.we have one savior and besides that mary was a sinner and not jesus.she also wasn`t a virgin.

Funny that - we don’t think she was Jesus at all And she absolutely was a virgin at the very very least until the time of Christ’s birth! Not a single Christian suggested that she WASN’T a perpetual virgin - not Luther, not Calvin, not Zwingli - until after their time.

And veneration for Mary well and truly predates the Blue Army - the earliest known prayer to her dates from the third century.

No Mary wasn’t a sinner - she is the ‘woman’ in Genesis who has enmity with the serpent. Since her seed is Christ who crushes the serpent’s head. A sinner can’t have enmity with the devil, but a sinless woman can.

And yes she was saved from sin, she was saved from it by never being permitted to fall into it to start with! If I pay off your debts for you when you have no money then I’ve saved you from bankruptcy - by not letting you BECOME bankrupt in the first place!!! Same deal with Mary.