Does anyone else have a problem with "Maryology"?

[fellowChristian]

As a Christian I can ask my family both alive or in heaven to pray for me. In death the soul detaches from the body. While our bodies may not live forever our souls are eternal. Just because my grandmother dies it doesn’t mean she stops being part of my family. We are the body of Christ all of us both living and the non-living. All of our souls. I ask Saint Joseph for his prayers for my earthly father and my husband. He is the patron saint of fathers. As I may ask Saint Monica for her prayers for my children. She prayed for 17 years for the conversion of her son. He grew up to be a priest, a bishop, one of the Early Church Fathers then a saint. Saint Augustine of Hippo.

1 Tim 2:1
I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—
**
Matt:5:44
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you**,**

Mark 9:4
And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.****

John 2:3 Mary interceding for the bride and groom.
When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”**

John 2:5
His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

Acts 12:7 An angel responding to Peter’s prayers
Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!” he said, and the chains fell off Peter’s wrists.

Ephesians 6:18
And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

Ephesians 6:19
Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html#saints-IV

 

[Todd_Easton]

Let us tell the whole truth about Marian devotion within Catholicism…this is a true prayer from Pope John Paul II - I received this from someone (A Catholic) here on the forum.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

…This prayer is not warranted and is contradictory to scripture…

The Son of God could have became man without involving Mary (Matthew 3:9) but he didn’t. He chose to entrust himself completely to Mary’s maternal care (nine months in her womb; about three years at her breast; about thirty years in her house) and placed himself completely under her parental authority and was obedient to her (Luke 2:51). Shouldn’t we imitate our Savior and likewise entrust ourselves completely to Mary’s maternal care and place ourselves completely under her parental authority and be obedient to her?

Mary, the handmaid of the Lord, found favor with God and her faith is worthy of our imitation. (Hebrews 13:7) Should not all Christians strive to live like she did, act like she did, speak like she did, think and love like she did, have dispositions and feelings like she did, have the personality and life like she did, be inclined to constant adoration of God and full of thanksgiving like she was, and pray like she did? And, if she is in a position to aid us by her prayers as we strive to imitate her faith (and she is), it only makes sense for us to ask for her Christian assistance as Pope John Paul II did in this prayer.

 

[NotWorthy]

No Mary wasn’t a sinner - she is the ‘woman’ in Genesis who has enmity with the serpent. Since her seed is Christ who crushes the serpent’s head. A sinner can’t have enmity with the devil, but a sinless woman can.

Here’s the hammer, and here’s the nail. And you just hit it right on the head!!!

 

[Todd_Easton]

Originally Posted by OneForTruth
Let us tell the whole truth about Marian devotion within Catholicism…this is a true prayer from Pope John Paul II - I received this from someone (A Catholic) here on the forum.

Immaculate Conception, Mary, my Mother.
Live in me. Act in me. Speak in and through me.
Think your thoughts in my mind. Love, through my heart.
Give me your dispositions and feelings.
Teach, lead and guide me to Jesus.
Correct, enlighten and expand my thoughts and behavior.
Possess my soul. Take over my entire personality and life.
Replace it with yourself.
Incline me to constant adoration and thanksgiving.
Pray in me and through me.
Let me live in you and keep me in this union always.
– Pope John Paul II

…This prayer is not warranted and is contradictory to scripture…

This prayer reminds me a great deal of Elisha’s request of Elijah before the latter went up to heaven:

9When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you.” And Elisha said, “I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit.” 10And he said, “You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so.” 11And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12And Elisha saw it and he cried, “My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!” And he saw him no more. … 15Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him over against them, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. (2 Kings 2:9-12, 15.)Mary, I pray you, let me inherit a portion of your spirit, my mother. May the spirit of Mary rest on me.

 

[justasking4]

Asking for Mary’s intercession is just like asking your friends/family to pray for you…except you’re asking the Mother of God to pray for you…think of the power in that!!

You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof. One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis. Two, that dead people can you. Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world. All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

 

[justasking4]

:clapping:

The best arguments are those that have no evidence, scriptural, historical or otherwise.

Have you looked at the evidence for the claims of Mary. Take the claim of her assumption. There is no mention of it in the NT nor are there any eyewitness accounts in history.

 

[justasking4]

Part I

So many people say this and it has a real rough edge to it, to me.

This question is not totally rhetorical. If that really happened, I think the Lord would have managed to fulfill His promises in some other way. Can we get “past” this “fiat” stuff? Nobody is strong enough to absolutely defeat the will of God.

The rhetorical aspect of that question is just speculation.

furthermore, what about all the ***other ***people in the geneology of Jesus who also said “yes”? For example, what if Boaz had not allowed Ruth to glean in his fields? Then the geneology would simply have gone another way to fulfill the promise of the Messiah.

The “what if” questions really don’t address the evangelization of people as in the OP. It’s arguing “from the negative.”

Part II

Mary is the leading female personality in the Bible. It behooves every Christian to deal with this.

She is the one who will be called blessed by all generations.

She is the **one **who was the living ark of the covenant.

She is the one who is called blessed among women.

She is the one who is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

She is the **one **woman who is the witness of Jesus private and public life.

She is the one who is the queen (mother) of Jesus the King.

She is the one whose virginity reflects the fulfillment of the prophecy of the Messiah.

She is the one who was full of grace.

She is the one who declared herself the servant of the Lord.

She is the one who says “do whatever He tells you.”

She is the one who is the prototype of all motherhood and unquestionably our spiritual mother.

She is the one who is pre-eminently present at Pentecost, the birth of the Church.

All of this is just off the “top of my head,” Every Christian has to deal with this. Mary is the transitional Christian between Judaism and the Kingdom of God on earth.

All you “full bible” protestants: these are all biblical principles about Mary.

She is the one chosen by God which is all the reason we should pay attention to her.

She is the one of whom Jesus says “behold thy mother.”

Intercessional prayer is firmly a principle of New Testament theology. Mary has been an early focal point of intercessional prayer in the Church.

What you don’t find in the NT is one single prayer ever to her. Not one. Much of the marian dogmas is based on speculations.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof.

Proof: Right here: catholicapologetics.org/ap070100.htm

One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis. Two, that dead people can you. Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world. All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

In heaven, God, angels and his saints are outside time and space. They are not limited like we are.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

The evidence is very clear. Perhaps, it is because you are seeing this in a Protestant lense, you lack the concept of Communion of Saints.

 

[NotWorthy]

You are doing far more than that. You must assume a number of things without proof. One is that she can hear you and millions of other catholics who pray to her on a daily basis. Two, that dead people can you. Three, even your church admits that it does not really know the nature of the after life i.e. can those who are dead hear and see what is going on in this world. All of these things that are said by your church is based on speculation and not fact.

Please don’t call them “the dead”. God is the God of the Living, not of the Dead. Those in Heaven are more alive than we’ll ever be while in this world.

Now, to take on your point. Doesn’t Revelation show that those in heaven offer up our prayers before the heavenly altar?

Secondly, Heaven exists outside of time, doesn’t it? Heaven was there before time, so it certainly is not bound by the constraints of time. With this in mind, I think the fact that millions of Catholics are praying to Mary is
a) a powerful, powerful statement to the unity of the faith. Just think, there are rosaries going on non-stop around the world. While you at it, there are Masses being offered up, non-stop around the world (Think of Malachi while your absorbing that).
b) a good and wonderful thing for all of those participating in the body of Christ.
c) not out of the realms of Christ’s gifts to the Faithful!

 

[NotWorthy]

Have you looked at the evidence for the claims of Mary. Take the claim of her assumption. There is no mention of it in the NT nor are there any eyewitness accounts in history.

Scripture? Read Revelation one more time, please.

Eye Witnesses? There are eyewitness accounts (some 50 some odd thousand) of the miracles of Fatima, and most Non-Catholics won’t believe them. There are eye-witness accounts of Guadalupe, and yet most refuse to believe it.

Somehow, I don’t think eye-witness accounts of Mary’s Assumptions would bring many Non-Catholics into the “Belief” Fold.

 

[NotWorthy]

justasking4:

What you don’t find in the NT is one single prayer ever to her. Not one. Much of the marian dogmas is based on speculations.

All of the Marian Dogmas are based on Scriptures. All of them.

 

[LilyM]

justasking4:

What you don’t find in the NT is one single prayer ever to her. Not one. Much of the marian dogmas is based on speculations.

Do you find any prayers to Jesus? No. To the Holy Spirit? No.

 

[justasking4]

Scripture? Read Revelation one more time, please.

I have and her name is not mentioned. Look at 12:1. Mary is never described this way in the Gospels for example.

Eye Witnesses? There are eyewitness accounts (some 50 some odd thousand) of the miracles of Fatima, and most Non-Catholics won’t believe them. There are eye-witness accounts of Guadalupe, and yet most refuse to believe it.

That’s not the issue. The issue is proof. Your church makes claims about this that cannot be proven. This is pure speculation and not a foundation to build a doctrine on.

 

[justasking4]

Do you find any prayers to Jesus? No. To the Holy Spirit? No.

Huh? What did Jesus teach in John 14:13-14?

 

[kaycee]

Proof: Right here: catholicapologetics.org/ap070100.htm

In heaven, God, angels and his saints are outside time and space. They are not limited like we are.

Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)

Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.

Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.

Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.

The evidence is very clear. Perhaps, it is because you are seeing this in a Protestant lense, you lack the concept of Communion of Saints.

It does not have seemed to be very clear to Peter, James, John and Paul for they were totally silent about it in scripture.

Paul received his revelation and teaching directly from the Risen Lord Jesus and records zero about praying to Mary or departed saints. Paul does repeat himself on doctrine he considers important, so we must conclcude that Mariology and prayers to saints were totally unknown to them. History shows that Mariology and prayers to saints were non existent for hundreds of years.

 

[justasking4]

All of the Marian Dogmas are based on Scriptures. All of them.

How can this be? Take the assumption. There is no mention of it in Scripture. Or take the idea that she was sinless or saved from sinning. That idea is also without any foundation in the Scriptures. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports this kind of thing.

 

[NotWorthy]

I have and her name is not mentioned. Look at 12:1. Mary is never described this way in the Gospels for example.

"She is described as “Woman” by the same Apostle John. As the queen mother of Jesus in the New Israel, heaven, she would be in the role described in Revelation. As the Ark of the new Covenant, we see the ancient Ark being replaced with the new Ark.

Yes, Revelation is pretty clear to me on this issue.

Quote:
 	 		 Eye Witnesses? There are eyewitness accounts (some 50 some odd thousand) of the miracles of Fatima, and most Non-Catholics won't believe them. There are eye-witness accounts of Guadalupe, and yet most refuse to believe it.

How do you know this is Mary and not some other being?

Well, she’s either Mary, or someone leading others to God that claims to be Mary. Unless you’re insinuating that the apparitions are not leading other to God. I hope that’s not your thought.

That’s not the issue. The issue is proof. Your church makes claims about this that cannot be proven. This is pure speculation and not a foundation to build a doctrine on.

Ah, but that is the issue. You demand proof, knowing full well that if there were proof you still wouldn’t accept it. If I read you correctly, you are like some of the others that firmly believe that the Fatima and Guadaloupe apparitions are Satanic in nature. If I mis-read you, then my sincere apologies.

But, to get back to your “point”, it is reported in the 4th or 5th century that the Apostles looked in Mary’s crypt only to find her gone. I know it’s not concrete, but I’m not basing my belief on that “tale”. I trust in the teaching authority of the Church. If you don’t accept it, that’s something you need to deal with, not me.

 

[justasking4]

Please don’t call them “the dead”. God is the God of the Living, not of the Dead. Those in Heaven are more alive than we’ll ever be while in this world.

They are dead to us. Their bodies died. As for being in heaven you have no way of knowing that. No one can know with certainty the destination of those that have died. If i’m not mistaken your church claims as much.

Now, to take on your point. Doesn’t Revelation show that those in heaven offer up our prayers before the heavenly altar?

Again this is speculation. Scripture never teaches or exhorts anyone to pray to Mary or anyone besides God.

Just think, there are rosaries going on non-stop around the world. While you at it, there are Masses being offered up, non-stop around the world (Think of Malachi while your absorbing that).

This doesn’t help. Since we are never to pray to anyone but God, such prayers are without effect. Would you find it good that millions of others are praying to their gods? Would you consider those prayers powerful?

b) a good and wonderful thing for all of those participating in the body of Christ.

If you mean those in Christ in this world i would agree. Trying to say this also includes those who have died, i would not. Scripture does not make this claim nor should we.

c) not out of the realms of Christ’s gifts to the Faithful!

[/QUOTE]

 

[NotWorthy]

How can this be? Take the assumption. There is no mention of it in Scripture. Or take the idea that she was sinless or saved from sinning. That idea is also without any foundation in the Scriptures. There is not one verse in Scripture that supports this kind of thing.

I thought you believed in “Sola Scriptura”, not “Sola Versura”. But evidently that is not so.

Mary’s Assumption is based on the Scripture based teaching that Mary is the New Eve - something that has been taught by the Church at least by the year 155AD (Justin Martyr). Since Mary is the New Eve, and she has been born without Original Sin (another Scriptural based teaching), then Mary’s death (if she did die, we don’t know) would have brought her bodily into heaven.

This is confirmed in Revelation 12.

 

[NotWorthy]

They are dead to us. Their bodies died. As for being in heaven you have no way of knowing that. No one can know with certainty the destination of those that have died. If i’m not mistaken your church claims as much.

That’s correct, but we are rather certain of those that have been canonized, due to the intensity of the canonization process. Although if someone is not canonized, that is no way a claim that they didn’t get to heaven. But they are still alive, and just because they are “dead to us”, that doesn’t make us “dead to them”. They are more intimate with us than when they were living, for they are part of the Body of Christ, even more so than we are.

In Revelation, we see those in heaven offering up our prayers.

That’s why our prayers are usually offered up to Canonized Saints.

P.S. I’ll take a look at the rest of your post shortly.