Jesus teaches us that we all belong to one body. Those who have passed beyond the veil of the flesh are not “less” a part of the body. If the dead can have no more to do with this world, how is it that Samual appeared to Saul? How is it that Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and His Apostles?
It doesn’t take anymore time to copy the quote over than it does to make your text red. If you use the quotes right,then it will show up in the reply.
Jesus tells us plenty about heaven. He teaches us that people are alive there, and that each of us has a guardian angel, and that the angels behold the face of His father.
I think someone in another thread has replied to you about this already. Jesus was not called the offspring of David for no reason. The OT is a type and shadow of the New. When you read about how Soloman treated his mother, how could you think that Jesus would do less for His?
12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; 14 if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."John 14:12-14
No, actually, the chasm was between the saved and the damned.
Those who become Christians have died, and their lives are hidden with Christ in God. It is no longer they who live, but Christ who lives in them. They become part of His body. It is all one body.
Scripture teaches us that those in Christ are “alive” in Him. Death has no more dominion over them. They constitute a great cloud of witnesses around us.
Why would Jesus send ministering spirits to help us if He did not want us to communicate with them?
John 14:12-14
No, he is teaching about what their condition IS in heaven!
Well, at least we are getting warmer!
The event IS the intercession. It is showing us how the intercession of the saints is handled in heaven!
You don’t think that asking for God’s judgement against the unjust is an intercession for protection? If God judges the evil rulers who are martyring the saints, don’t you think the saints will be safer?
justasking, the passage was written by a catholic, and represents the catholic view, from the first century until now. Your comment confirms what I have been saying that the authors of the text are the most qualfied to interpret it. All the writers of the NT were catholic, and the Church most accurately understand what they meant when they wrote because the meaning was passed to us in the Sacred Tradition, along with the writings.
Your arrogance boggles the mind. Who are you to come along 2000 years later, and assert that you understand what the writers meant better than the writers themselves? How is it that you, being separated by two millenia and have a world away are better equipped to understand the NT then the fathers who were discipled by the writers of the books?Scripture teaches us that those in Christ are “alive” in Him. Death has no more dominion over them. They constitute a great cloud of witnesses around us.
This passage says nothing about communication i.e. prayer to them though.
Why would Jesus send ministering spirits to help us if He did not want us to communicate with them?
Many problems with using this passage as a basis to pray to the dead. For one all it says is that there was “bowl of incense which are the prayers of the saints”. No mention that prayers were prayed to the elders or the 4 living creatures.
You are going way beyond what this passage is claiming. These saints are not praying but declaring and asking the Lamb when they will be avenged. It is not about them making intercession for you on earth. In fact a case could be made that this book has to do with events that have yet to take place. If that is true, then its not about the present.
I know that someday in judgement all things will be judged and the justice of God will prevail. It is right to pray to God and Christ for protection but not to dead people in whom we are not exhorted to pray to.
The issue here is about communication. Can those in this world communicate with those who have died. The scriptrues don’t teach this at all.
It is one thing for these examples to appear again in history for a specific purposes of God. What Saul did was forbidden but God allowed it. Moses appearing to Jesus was done for a specific reason in the mission of the Lord Jesus. In both of these cases prayer is not taking place but an actual event. These events were never meant to be used as an example of praying to the dead.
Only in Jesus do we access to the Father. Let me give you a couple of examples from Scripture.–
He established the church that we may grow to maturity in Him, that we may be taught, that we may help others, that we may worship together etc. Jesus is sufficent for all my spiritual needs i.e. salvation, forgiveness etc but the church is needed for those other needs in this world.If Jesus is “sufficient for all our needs” why did He establish a church?
The Scriptures do not teach us to pray to Mary or the saints but only to God alone. That is clear. Even the catholic church claims to not know who is in heaven and who is not. It also has the purgatory doctrine that also factors into this. For one you don’t know if the person you are praying to is there and if they can hear and do anything about your requests. The inspired Scriptures though do teach us to pray to Christ and ask in His name and it will be done. Only in Christ do we have confidence.Where do you base your assertion that it is not “proper” for those who have passed to pray for those who have not?
justasking, the passage was written by a catholic, and represents the catholic view, from the first century until now. Your comment confirms what I have been saying that the authors of the text are the most qualfied to interpret it. All the writers of the NT were catholic, and the Church most accurately understand what they meant when they wrote because the meaning was passed to us in the Sacred Tradition, along with the writings.
What do you do when the authors of a text are no longer alive? What Sacred Tradition do you have that tells you what verses of the Bible mean?
Because i disagree that makes me arrogant? I look at the scriptures and they don’t teach what your church claims on these issues. Your comment about understanding what the writers meant is confusing. Your church has never infallibly interpreted the scriptures.
We are actually in a better postion to understand the past than they were for a number of reasons. For one we have more resources than they did. Take translations. Jerome was a great scholar of the 4th century. He alone translated the scriptures in Latin which was an incredible feat. Today, we have so many more well qualifiied translators, scholars and manuscripts than he did that many translations are more accurate than the Vulgate.
We also have more commentaries on the Scriptures than at any time in history. We should understand them better than the church fathers.
In executing his last will and testament Jesus said to his beloved disciple John while on the cross, “Son, behold your mother.” And from that moment on John took care of her after he brought her home. John represents all Christians, and so we have been commanded by our Lord to take her into the home of our hearts. Yet before Jesus spoke to John, he meaningfully said, “Mother, behold your son.” He gave us his mother so that we would turn to her for prayerful assistance and her intercessions. Mary had already interceded for us when she prompted her Son to perform his first miracle at the wedding feast in Cana. She brought Jesus into the world, so without her “fiat” at the Annunciation, we could not have been saved. God has a role for her in the economy of salvation. Everytime she appears in the Gospels she is together with her Son at an important moment in his life on earth. Our Blessed Mother cannot be ignored. The authors of the Gospels were aware of that. Finally, Jesus is the Messianic King in the royal line of David. David, Solomon, and all the kings of the two kingdoms of Israel had placed thrones next to theirs on which sat their mothers -not wives- to intercede on behalf of the people. The Queen Mother (‘Gebirah’ in Aramaic) of the ancient kingdoms prefigures the maternal and royal role of the Mother of Christ, the King of kings. (1Kings 2:17-21) I believe that Jesus will be more responsive to our prayers if we turn to him through the mediation of his beloved mother. The ‘Gebirah’ has always managed to touch the heart of her Son when pleading for us.
I don’t believe you are REQUIRED to pray to the saints, although there are many places we are encouraged to pray for one another. Why would they STOP praying for us after they passed?
Your issue seemed to be that the saints were powerless, but they are not. Jesus enables them to to great works through the HS.
How can you be a witness, if you cannot “see” and “hear”??
I realize they don’t have physical bodies, so they don’t perceive in the same way we do who are here in the veil of flesh. I cannot honestly say that I understand how it works, either. What I do know is that they are part of the communion of saints, they are triumphant (have finished the race) while we are still militant (fighting the good fight) but we are still members of the same body.This is a good question, since only God decides. There are certain persons, though about whom it is revealed that they are in heaven, and we can trust that what God has revealed to us is true. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, and this is a reliable revelation.
You misunderstand, justasking. Catholics are not sola scriptura. the practice of our faith includes many truths handed down to us by way of the Sacred Tradition. The prayers of the saints are one of these. We do see an example here in Revelation, but it is not the “basis” by which we do it.
If asking God when evil perpetrated against believers is not intercession, I don’t know what is. But, in either case, we do not base our belief on the communion of saints in this passage.
If you think those “in Christ” are dead, then your arguement is with Jesus, and not with the Catholic Church. Jesus says you don’t understand the scriptures, or the power of God:
No, I say you are arrogant because you ignore 2000 years of Apostolic Teaching.
Oh my lands! None of that scholarship has a leg to stand on if they don’t look at everything through the eyes of the fathers.
Thank you, Fellow Christian. Excellent exposition - and so true!
{Luke 1:49}