Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[steve-b]

If God says to you to do something, your answer should be okay. But somehow I think your immediate answer to Him is WHY?

steve-b:

I think You have trouble with authority.

If God says to you to do something, your answer should be okay. But somehow I think your immediate answer to Him is WHY?

Steve, you are incorrigible. I gave you a multiple choice question, and even gave you an out for any answer you wanted!

Yet still, you revert to analyzing and concluding, making general statements and asking questions rather than actually trying to understand people.

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave?

No law, no order. Know law, know order.

I think this is your answer to the question! So, if I read between the lines, I think you are saying that if you did not fear God, you would not behave. If that is indeed the case, please fear God . Now most Catholics these days say that when the Bible talks about “fear of God”, the word fear has to do with respect or reverence, not actual fear. But if I am reading things right, you are a great example of someone for whom outright fear is best.

It might be helpful to know that for you, some day empathy and love in themselves can be a guide that does not need strict guidelines, and it might also be helpful if you could reflect on “Man is not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath made for man”. When I say “helpful”, I mean that perhaps you may come to see that there are different ways of looking at the Gospel, even in our Catholic Church, and there is plenty of room for such differences.

Blessings to you! Thanks for the interesting discussion.

You gave me the option to pick something completely different…remember? Your direct words were “Feel free to choose something else!” So I did

As I said before,

If God says to you to do something, your answer should be okay. Period dot end of sentence.
But somehow I think your immediate answer to Him is to ask Him…WHY?

That’s what I’m seeing in your whole approach on this subject. It’s close to saying to Him…no

 

[OneSheep]

Romans 7:15-20. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He says that he does not understand why he sins. That it is not himself that sins, he wants to do good, but it is the sin within himself that makes him do what he does not want to do.

I find this section of his letter rather self-reflective. Is Paul not accepting responsibility for his acts, blaming his choices on some kind of foreign influence? I think that in our modern times we know a little more about why people make choices, and we can see that even the worst choices come from wanting some good, as the CCC says. The problems happen when our mind (our conscience) is warped by desire; we are blinded.

But it is significant that he says “I do not understand what I do”. He is confirming what he said earlier about when he was persecuting Christians:

1 Timothy 1:13New International Version (NIV)

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Paul shows us a means to forgiveness with words that parallel Jesus’ from the cross. We do not know what we are doing when we sin.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

No law, no order. Know law, know order.

I think this is your answer to the question! So, if I read between the lines, I think you are saying that if you did not fear God, you would not behave. If that is indeed the case, please fear God . Now most Catholics these days say that when the Bible talks about “fear of God”, the word fear has to do with respect or reverence, not actual fear. But if I am reading things right, you are a great example of someone for whom outright fear is best.

Keep in mind

78% of Catholics don’t go to mass except maybe twice a year, Christmas and Easter if at all… Hence the nickname C & E Catholics. They are all objectively speaking, in mortal sin. If one dies in mortal sin they go straight to hell.

Those stats come from a Georgetown Univ poll. http://cara.georgetown.edu/frequentl...ch-statistics/

So when you talk to me about what “MOST” Catholics think, I’ve got a different point in mind…

And they will scared senseless some day if they don’t wake up…and soon.

OneSheep:

It might be helpful to know that for you, some day empathy and love in themselves can be a guide that does not need strict guidelines, and it might also be helpful if you could reflect on “Man is not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath made for man”. When I say “helpful”, I mean that perhaps you may come to see that there are different ways of looking at the Gospel, even in our Catholic Church, and there is plenty of room for such differences.

Blessings to you! Thanks for the interesting discussion.

Here’s some advice that is timeless. Do with it what you will.

Ez 3:
17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

That advice is as good for Ezekiel in his day, as it is for us today and forever. That advice has no expiration date.

 

[OneSheep]

he wants to do good

We can see that the CCC also uses some of the same wording:

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods.

Can you see also that even when we sin, there is something good that we want?

Looking again at those who crucified Christ, we may think “what ‘good’ did they want?” Well, they wanted justice, and they saw Jesus as an outlaw, a blasphemer. The ‘good’ that they wanted was to punish an offender so as to discourage such behavior, the good they wanted was justice itself.

Just kinda ‘wondering aloud’ here: Basically, humanity had a gut-level reaction to Jesus. He violated their collective conscience, and they became perversely attached to punish.

We have learned through the centuries that when we want to punish someone, we do not do so objectively; the resentment and anger blind our empathy. This is why a proper modern judge keeps all emotional want to punish out of his mind, otherwise the lack of objectivity ends up manifesting very unfair distribution of penalty, as his mood would have too much to do with it. In order to stay objective, a just judge has to see the defendant as a person just like he is.

It is pretty clear, then, that Jesus is “turning cheek” in a very big way, and his profession of forgiveness from the cross stands as an act of love in the face of a perverse attachment to justice.

And then, what about images of God? Is a God who does not go after that lost sheep, I mean really go after anyone who is lost, at any time , regardless what the person has done and failed to repent from doing, is such a God a projection, an anthropomorphism, of the person we are when we are perversely attached to justice?

But I must edit: “perversely” is too severe a word. Our capacity for “attachment” in itself is natural, it is good. “Perversely” reflects a negative reaction to this human capacity (a reaction which is also natural, but we are called to transcend). We can leave “perversely” out of that question…

 

[Kei]

I personally notice the access to the deeper level is not hindered when I have committed mortal sin, we just ignore it and put it out of our minds. It is possible I truly sinned more culpably than most and in that deeply offended the Most High, but I would like to think that my experience in sinning is similar enough to others’.
My use of heresy and hard of hearts is not used out of resentment but are used as statements of fact. Jesus told us to say yay or nay, and He Himself was very blunt. Speaking bluntly is not bad, it is simply speaking truth. I believe it is important to turn others from sin and false religions, so I naturally do not desire to speak in a way that may make others think sin or false religions are OK, as it is not only their eternal lives at stake, but also the true joy of this life.
That does not mean I am against mercy and forgiveness and understanding. But, “understanding” often means people try to excuse themselves or others (I am not saying you are doing this, merely a generalization this is). Mercy and forgiveness, true mercy and true forgiveness, are a thing we should seek and encourage others to practice. So let us say, repent and truly turn from wickedness in Christ, and know true joy and peace. Follow His teachings and attain eternal life.

 

[OneSheep]

Good evening Kei. I hope you had a nice Sunday.

I personally notice the access to the deeper level is not hindered when I have committed mortal sin, we just ignore it and put it out of our minds.

Ahaaaah…
I always perk up a little when I use the word “just” in that sort of context! It is an expression of “it is so simple as…”, but more often than not it is not so simple.

You see, when we try to understand, we can ask question like, "why did I ignore it, when my ‘deeper level’ knows the primary importance? Since when does the sin take priority over the values and mores? It takes priority when I have already been blinded by desire. The blindness is there already when I am choosing to ignore and choosing to put it out of my mind.

That said, people can, indeed know how to figure out when they are blind and can turn around their thinking, this is true. With prayer, a reconnection with the true self, and especially addressing the desire, a person who has suffered enough may remember that the sin is harmful and refrain from repetition.

I think it can be just as important to know why someone doesn’t sin as it is to know why someone does! For example, in many ways I am the same as a murderer; I have hated. I could say “but I am so much better than the murderer, for I did not act on my hate!” OTOH, the question then is “why did I not act on the hate?” My answer could have been fear of disappointing people, fear of reprisal, fear of violence itself, fear of prison, etc. It’s no wonder that we hear about violence carried out by military veterans, because the fear of violence and some other inhibitions are eliminated.

It is possible I truly sinned more culpably than most and in that deeply offended the Most High,…

That sense of culpability, or “blameworthiness” is going to depend on one’s image of God. Does God blame, or does God forgive? Does God know the future? We believe so, so why would God wait to forgive future sins until they happen? These are all answered in line with our image of God.

Mercy and forgiveness, true mercy and true forgiveness, are a thing we should seek and encourage others to practice. So let us say, repent and truly turn from wickedness in Christ, and know true joy and peace. Follow His teachings and attain eternal life.

Yes!

And since understanding takes us to a deeper level of Forgiveness, it is a great thing to encourage understanding. An “understanding” that has a main effort toward acquittal is not, in itself, a “deeper level” endeavor. Desire for escape of responsibility, when sought, is a demonstration of alienation.

 

[Kei]

There is no dichotomy in blaming and forgiving; in fact, to forgive there has to be blame, there has to be wrongdoing.

Tyoically, I suppose I would sin when I was doubting, even a little. If the whole basis for morality might not be, then what need for morality or virtues were there other than mass opinion? And then a sin committed in secret would not be known…
Though of course, I know God is, He is a firm rock, eternal and Almighty.
So why would I doubt (I assume my experience is common to others)? The answer is simple: because of desire to sin.
Why the desire to sin? What arouses the immoral and disordered behavior?
A no brainer: the same source of doubt: the evil one.
This is why we sin: we are tricked by the evil one or our own immoral desires conceived of within ourselves.

The sinner is like the slave of the demon, doing his bidding. This is why it is important to have as Master not the demons, but Christ.
Think of the tactics in the garden of eden: doubt.
“Did He really say that?”
Before the punchline, the true hubris of humanity, that desire to be what we are not, to be the arbiters of morality, to be “free” and bound by our own immoral behaviors, but man is not free by being bound to himself, man everywhere is bound to his wife our his family or country; our true freedom is in being slaves to Christ! The devil, that liar from the beginning, said:
“Ye shall be as gods”.
Most temptation is likened to this.

 

[simpleas]

I think sin is so complex it’s almost impossible to know why some people do what is sinful and others do not because each of us ‘suffer’ from some sin or other.

People can not know 100% what they are doing when they sin because they can never have a perfectly formed conscience.
The fall story is evidence of this I think, both sinned because neither had a perfectly formed conscience to begin with or they would have not sinned.

We can build good conscience and become better people for it, but there are many people who are good people but will always be seen as sinners in God’s eyes because they are not perfect.

 

[OneSheep]

There is no dichotomy in blaming and forgiving; in fact, to forgive there has to be blame, there has to be wrongdoing.

Good morning, Kei,

We do have this very important verse from the gospel:

New International Version
Mark 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

This line does not mention anything about “wrongdoing”. The guide for who to forgive is clearly that we “hold something against someone.” Very often no “wrongdoing” is involved.

Why the desire to sin? What arouses the immoral and disordered behavior?

St. Augustine covers this question in his Confessions. Also, the definition of sin in the CCC explains that people sin because of desire for some good.

The devil, that liar from the beginning, said:

“Ye shall be as gods”.

Most temptation is likened to this.

It is important to note that people very normally come to resent their own desire for power and status, which is part of the working of the conscience. Since desire and power and status, though, are part of our nature, and our nature is God-given, then the desires in themselves are good. These desires can be seen in some form in all other mammalian species (and others also).

Even if we ascribe to the devil the notion of “being like gods”, when we seek to understand, condemnation is to be put aside. “Why would a person want to be God?” is the question. The answer can be traced to desire for power and status, and a lot of lack of awareness and blindness. Can you think of a scenario by which a person could rationally reason a desire to be God?

Someone desiring this does not know what he is doing.

 

[Kei]

If you hold something against someone would be the wrongdoing.

Our enemy is the devil, and he wanted to be like God, even higher than the Most High. This is not a surprise that he would want to pull others into the sin of pride so as to think this as well.
Anyone who turns away from God as their source of morals, in a sense, does this.

I am not at all convinced that one taken in by disordered passions doesn’t know what they are doing, simply by previous experience I do not see how this could be so.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, Simpleas!

People can not know 100% what they are doing when they sin because they can never have a perfectly formed conscience.

I think that it might be important to distinguish the conscience from other aspects of our human nature. A person can have a perfectly formed conscience, but still be subject to their own capacity for blindness. For a person not to be subject to blindness, he would have to have a prayer discipline, an awareness discipline, where one is not only in tune to when desire is altering his thinking, but also knows what to do in order to separate his thinking, in the moment, from his desire. (which brings us back to prayer, I think, a prayer that involves transcending desire itself).

A person lacking this type of discipline, even with a “perfect conscience”, can become blind to his conscience. Case in point: many people have brought up here people doing things “even though they know they are wrong”.

It is clear, though, that when a person intentionally hurts someone else, they do not know what they are doing simply because they are not seeing the value, the human dignity, in the other.

The fall story is evidence of this I think, both sinned because neither had a perfectly formed conscience to begin with or they would have not sinned.

So, if the conscience includes the discipline to be aware of blindness, then this would be true, their consciences had not been perfectly formed. Tradition has it that A&E did have perfect consciences, though, due to their “preternatural” nature. The problem with the whole “preternatural” concept, however, is “Why would God have created a person who has the capacity to defy, knew that he (and she) would defy, and then punish them for it later?” I think we can agree that it doesn’t make sense.

As you know, I think of that story as an allegory, not literally.

We can build good conscience and become better people for it, but there are many people who are good people but will always be seen as sinners in God’s eyes because they are not perfect.

Well, we are all sinners, right? God-as-I-know-Him does not take into consideration what we think or do as he loves us and cares for us, as I think you agree. I don’t see God evaluating our worth based on imperfections, not that you were saying differently, but just to clarify.

 

[OneSheep]

If you hold something against someone would be the wrongdoing.

Well, this may be so, but most of the time the “holding against” is very natural and has its place and purpose. We of good conscience all hold something against murderers before we forgive them. It’s hard for me to say someone is “wrong” for holding a grudge, it seems counter-productive and the statement in itself seems to suggest a grudge from the speaker or from God, which goes against reason.

What I am saying is that we often hold something against people even when they have not done something “wrong”, so forgiveness is not always about the other doing something objectively “wrong”.

I am not at all convinced that one taken in by disordered passions doesn’t know what they are doing, simply by previous experience I do not see how this could be so.

Well, try to come up with what a person is thinking when they are sinning. It will all be irrational, as sin is irrational. Also, if a person hurts another intentionally, he does not know, in the moment, the dignity and value of the other. Try to come up with a scenario where this is not the case!

If you can do it, it will be the first time I’ve ever seen it done.

 

[Kei]

What are you holding against them if not wrongdoing?
Who bears a grudge for that which is not viewed as wrongdoing, and how often is that done?

God always gives us the Grace to avoid sin and defeat temptation. He who is irrational in his choosing to do wrong could be rational. However, it is a choice to do sin over not sinning, as we are given the grace to avoid sin.

Take an instance where one takes justice into his own hands. Through some wrong done to family, he has determined the man guilty of all manner of sin agains him and his kin.
So, he exacts his justice.
His wrongdoing here does not appear to be lacking in the value of a human person, rather he values especially much those in his family, but in exacting HIS justice, instead of God.

 

[OneSheep]

What are you holding against them if not wrongdoing?

There are plenty of examples.

1. a politician chooses to favor a cause you do not support, you find the supported cause unfair.
2. someone criticizes your work
3. a car in front of you on the freeway is driving too slowly, and you are in a hurry.

4 You are trying to have a certain statue being planned for a park appear a certain way, and someone with more power and influence gets their way instead.

1. Someone makes an incorrect assumption about your character, in a negative way.

Yes, in some way, the person has been “wronged”, but I said “objectively wrong”.

God always gives us the Grace to avoid sin and defeat temptation.

Yes, but this thread is not about overcoming temptation, it is about understanding people who fail in avoidance of sin.

Yes, the grace is there, but a people have limited access to it. A person who is not in relationship with God (prayer life) is more subject to the winds of desire and emotion. Now, do those two previous sentences stir resistance in the reader? Is there not something internal that says “No! hang onto blame! Don’t let anyone get away with anything!”

The question is, do we recoil against such understanding, because it is “making excuses”? If we recoil from understanding because we are internally protecting blame, holding onto the importance of condemnation and guilt in guiding our own behaviors and those of others, then we are compromising the potential to an inner reconciliation. A person is a “house divided” between a drive for justice and a need for compassion and wholeness (holiness).

Understanding is what can harmonize compassion and justice. If we resist understanding for the sake of justice, then we miss out on a deeper holiness. Jesus invites us, with his words from the cross “forgive them, for they know not what they do” to understand, rather than condemn, ourselves and others, and in so doing he invites us to a deeper relationship, a deeper harmony, a deeper knowing.

So, he exacts his justice.

Hmmm. what do you mean “exacting justice”? Can we have a little more detail? What does he do?

 

[Kei]

1 and five seemed like actual wrongs (albeit slight) but the rest is just petty stuff. I don’t know Greek but I feel like that the translation probably implies less than the original language.

I thought the purpose of understanding why one sins would be to later avoid sin. Otherwise, what is forgiveness without repentance?

I don’t know if that last word of Jesus was about everyone or about the specific situation. I always pictured it as the situation. They didn’t realize they were killing their Messiah. They quite literally did not know what they were doing. If you have any writings of saints or specifically doctors of the Church on the subject, I’d love to read some.

The only thing that stirred me was the saying that they were less able to access the grace. I always felt it was more like certain prayers brought more graces, and asking for more grace would bring it to us.

He exacts his own justice, his own way. I had in mind something that you might see in a movie, day he kills the man.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Evening Kei,

Just got on the computer today and there you are, just posted a minute ago. I hope you had a nice thanksgiving, assuming you are here in the States.

1 and five seemed like actual wrongs (albeit slight) but the rest is just petty stuff.

Yeah, its all “petty” to someone, but the point is that people hold things against others for many things, seemingly petty things. But take #2, for example, and I tell the grudge-holder that the criticism he received was petty and no big deal. Well, if he reacts to my comment with a punch in my nose, that is a pretty clear indication that he thinks it is a pretty big deal, and now he holds something against me too. I think you would have to admit that the person could use a little practice in understanding another’s POV, right?

I thought the purpose of understanding why one sins would be to later avoid sin.

That is also an important benefit, IMO, but it is not 100% effective. It is pretty effective with the sin of grudge-holding, when grudge-holding is sinful. Jesus makes it clear from the cross that understanding is a path toward forgiveness.

Otherwise, what is forgiveness without repentance?

Forgiveness from the heart without requiring repentance is exactly what Jesus modeled from the cross. Have you ever read about Eva Kor? She suffered persecution like few others, but she forgave her persecutors, even the ones who were already dead. Forgiveness is for our own well-being, our own holiness, mostly. Forgiveness makes the “burden light”, it is part of living an eternal life.

I don’t know if that last word of Jesus was about everyone or about the specific situation. I always pictured it as the situation. They didn’t realize they were killing their Messiah. They quite literally did not know what they were doing. If you have any writings of saints or specifically doctors of the Church on the subject, I’d love to read some.

Yeah, I would like to read what others say about it too. I took a path of meditating on the verse as well as other verses (such as removing the post from one’s eye) and found the observation to be universal. Bibles reference the stoning of St. Stephen and the sermon on the mount.

asking for more grace would bring it to us.

I think that is a valid point. So the question becomes, “why wouldn’t a tempted person ask for grace?”. Brings us back to the blindness and lack-of-awareness factors. Denial plays a role too. Some people simply deny that what they are doing is hurtful to someone else. Denial is a subconscious happening.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

He exacts his own justice, his own way. I had in mind something that you might see in a movie, [say] he kills the man.

We go back to the question, “Would he have killed his own mother, his own child, if they had done the same?” Probably not, because he values those people for their own sake, for their importance in his eyes. To the degree that we cannot see this very same importance and value in others, to that degree we are ignorant or blind. In order for us to enact justice, our empathy has to be blocked; it is a natural occurrence in the mind.

I remember thinking abortion doctors were simply disposable, desire for justice blinded me of their human dignity. When I sought to understand them, I realized that they did not see value in the unborn. At that very moment I realized I was not seeing value in the doctors as people. It was a simultaneous understanding/awakening. It was the removal of an enormous post.

 

[Kei]

I mean, we partake in the forgiveness of God via Cavalry through repentance and turning from sin, being free from sin by God’s Grace, and being made righteous in His likeliness.
But the thing is, the man is acting against a man as the man did something against his family. He would even kill his own child if he or she did that to another, or at least that’s what he says as he downs another shot of whiskey before he takes off to get his revenge.

 

[OneSheep]

He would even kill his own child if he or she did that to another,

Then this is either a psychopath or a person blinded by desire to punish. Kill his own child? Heavens, that takes some real wrath. Does anyone know what they are doing when they are overcome with wrath?

at least that’s what he says as he downs another shot of whiskey before he takes off to get his revenge.

Does anyone really know what he is doing when he’s drunk? I mean, like always, “know” in an all-inclusive sense. Drunk people are not seeing reality, their “knowing” of reality is compromised.

 

[Kei]

He had resolved himself long before going take a drink. He merely drank to make it easier to do what he was going to do