Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[Kei]

Capital punishment is a difficult issue to speak about, because I know I would not want anyone to be killed, but in terms of blasphemy or heresy, I have to do some cost benefit analysis on the life of one or the life of the untold hundreds or thousands or however many eternal souls being endangered over the heresy or blasphemy.
Of course, this is not applicable in today’s world where all sorts of blasphemies and heresies are readily available to anyone who wants to hear them or not.
Of course, Jesus is the Truth and full of Love and spoke truth and love, showing the Wisdom of God.
And the Jews knew not what they were doing.

Sinners know they are sinning, but put that fact out of their mind. Even if they have a well formed conscience, they can still sin by forgetting it (I mean on purpose). Of course, it is less likely for one further along in sanctification to sin, yet it can happen.

This is why it is important to pray for the grace of God at the beginning of any temptation (I need to take my advice more!). At the asking, that very moment we are given Grace. If we allow the temptations of devils and sin to get to us, it may be too late.

When one is later on in sanctification, the temptations to sin grow much more complex, or so I hear. They become things that seem good but are still sins. “The road to Hell is paved in good intentions” or so it is. Yet despite knowing it is sin, the temptation seems like it would be good that it would be OK. This is why it is important to NOT want to offend God at all. To prefer to die than to offend God, but God desires not our death but life.

 

[OneSheep]

When one is later on in sanctification, the temptations to sin grow much more complex, or so I hear. They become things that seem good but are still sins. “The road to Hell is paved in good intentions” or so it is. Yet despite knowing it is sin, the temptation seems like it would be good that it would be OK. This is why it is important to NOT want to offend God at all. To prefer to die than to offend God, but God desires not our death but life.

Yes, this is all the truth as I know it.

You are focusing on avoidance of sin, and this thread is about understanding why people sin, and use of the Gift of Understanding in the process of forgiveness, as Jesus demonstrated from the cross.

The conscience protects our negative feelings toward ourselves, the conscience to some degree protects our self-condemnation and guilt. The conscience operates in the mode such that if we hang onto our guilt, we are much less likely to sin, and to some degree it works! So, while the conscience self-protection compels us to avoid understanding ourselves and others, when we hang onto self-blame we are not in a state of holiness, we are enslaved. It may be a useful slavery, but Christ calls us to reconcile within, to forgive those parts of ourselves and our past sins that we hold against ourselves. It is an invitation to a deeper reconciliation.

Seeing our lack of awareness can be helpful in letting go of self-blame (negative feelings about oneself).

Can you see that those involved in heresy or blasphemy do not know what they are doing?

 

[Kei]

I see. What you are saying is to be rid of guilt.
But, I cannot agree with the method. It may lead some to believe a mortal sin is venial, which can lead to more sin.
The method to be free of guilt is confession, not obfuscating our actual guilt. I know from my own past that when you want to do something bad you will come up with any half baked rationalization to commit a sin. This is not necessarily blindness, it is being sinful because we want to sin due to concupiscience, and since we are a creature drawn to rationality, this is the method that allows to us to perhaps sin. You don’t even believe it when you say it, deep inside. You can deceive yourself on a shallow level but not deeply.
Heretics may or may not be liable for their heresy depending on their capability to know of the Truth. However, it is most likely they have hard hearts or are deeply misinformed; the former is most likely more liable than the latter, though now with Internet access one wonders if one who does search could not find information to satisfy their intellect. All this said, we need not despair at the death of a heretic but can hope that, even though they lack the full and explicit knowledge of the fullness of Truth, they may have, unknowingly, still accepted the Truth.

 

[OneSheep]

I see.

Maybe not just yet, but you’re getting warmer. I’m talking about forgiveness from the heart, which is empowered by understanding.

What you are saying is to be rid of guilt.

No, not if “guilt” means impute. I’m talking about understanding why people sin, not how to escape responsibility or consequence. Even the most insane person is still responsible for his sin. It is his choosing, his decision. If “guilt” means “to blame” or “to hold something against the person”, then that is a different usage. In that case, we are called to do the opposite of blame, which is to forgive. So yes, it is an odd way of saying it, but when I forgive someone I no longer blame (hold something against) him. So I am getting rid of guilt (in my attitude towards him).

Or, were you using yet another definition of “guilt”?

This is not necessarily blindness, it is being sinful because we want to sin due to concupiscience,

Well, you are expressing redundancy. Concupiscence is contrary to reason, it is caused by strong desire, it is strong desire that warps our objectivity. When we want, we are blinded, depending on the degree of the want. We are not thinking clearly, and we don’t even realize that the blindness has already happened. Rationalizing in itself is not the blindness, it is an effect of the blindness. What I am saying here is not an excuse, it is merely an observation of causation.

You can deceive yourself on a shallow level but not deeply

I agree, and when a person is caught up in desire, his access to the deep level is greatly compromised. What I am saying here is not an excuse, it is merely an observation of causation.

Heretics may or may not be liable for their heresy depending on their capability to know of the Truth.

If a person knows the truth, really knows it, then they do not cling to heresy. Again, this is a matter of observation. This is not making excuses.

it is most likely they have hard hearts

These words, depending on tone, may express resentment. Indeed, even the word “heresy” may express resentment. When a person is using these words in condemning ways, are they speaking from a shallow level, the level that is caught up in condemning and punishing, or are they speaking from a deeper level, the level that involves understanding and forgiving?

Are you starting to see the direction, the focus, of this thread now?

they may have, unknowingly, still accepted the Truth.

Yes, they may have, and God forgives them one way or the other. A lot of this has to do with our image of God, but in my own life I saw a more forgiving God when I myself learned how to forgive at a deeper level.

 

[steve-b]

Adam immediately blamed Eve.

Well, of course he did. It was Eve who took it first.

Adam could have said no.

OneSheep:

However, he did sin and obviously regretted his action. Would he have chosen to eat the fruit if his mindset would have been the same as when he had the regret? No, not if his regret had been forefront, knowing fully the consequences (including the emotional consequences) of his action.

A&E knowingly disobeyed God, and the punishment was administered.

However, he did sin and obviously regretted his action. Would he have chosen to eat the fruit if his mindset would have been the same as when he had the regret? No, not if his regret had been forefront, knowing fully the consequences (including the emotional consequences) of his action.

his mindset? He knowingly made the choice to disobey God,

THEN he blamed God, by saying the woman YOU gave me caused me to eat the fruit you said NOT TO EAT

Yes, he is making excuses, trying to escape the consequences.

steve-b:

so he knew

OneSheep:

Does he know what he is doing when he does this?

Yes

OneSheep:

Answering that question would involve understanding what is happening in his mind. At the time of the statement, he was probably feeling some fear, so it is understandable that his fear blinded his sense of right and wrong concerning taking responsibility.

So you are judging God and His decision?

Where did Adam learn that argument from, that he gave?

Did you know that even robots will lie when they are programmed to be competitive and “learn” from trial and error? It only takes a bit of intelligence to seek escape.

so Adam and Eve are now robots?

What happened to the part all humanity is created in the image and likeness of God?

Why didn’t he apologize?

An apology would have meant taking ownership and being willing to accept the consequences. If he later regrets this, then his mindset at the time was one of blindness. The time of regretting not apologizing is when he is of clearer mind, connected to his conscience, not when he refuses to apologize.

steve-b:

you just judged God and found God wrong in His judgement of A&E.

No body is guilty?.

He is guilty in the sense that he committed the sin, but he did not know what he was doing when he did all of them. Does God blame them, hold something against them, refuse to forgive? That depends on one’s image of God.

steve-b:

God threw them outta the garden…etc. Therefore God judged them for knowing what they were doing. Your image of God is one of your own making.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

OneSheep:

Let’s say a person has in his mind, at the forefront, .“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”.

Is this the person who you are saying is simultaneously, at the moment, choosing to sin?

Yes it’s the same person.

Okay, great, now we can go from my saying my observations and you making assertions contesting without evidence.

The first question is, why is the person choosing to sin, even though he fears hell? For the sake of clarity, can we say he is choosing to steal something? Commit adultery? Pick a sin, please, it may help.

You’re trying to base your thinking on one’s “intention” to sin.

From the CCC

1756 It is therefore an error to judge the morality of human acts by considering only the intention that inspires them or the circumstances (environment, social pressure, duress or emergency, etc.) which supply their context. There are acts which, in and of themselves, independently of circumstances and intentions, are always gravely illicit by reason of their object; such as blasphemy and perjury, murder and adultery. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

1758 The object chosen morally specifies the act of willing accordingly as reason recognizes and judges it good or evil.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

1760 A morally good act requires the goodness of its object, of its end, and of its circumstances together.

1761 There are concrete acts that it is always wrong to choose, because their choice entails a disorder of the will, i.e., a moral evil. One may not do evil so that good may result from it.

OneSheep:

And when I’m asking “why is the person choosing?” what I am not looking for is an evaluation, but the reasons in the person’s mind for choosing to sin even if those words are in the forefront.

You can’t ask why something is chosen, then say you don’t want evlaluation or reasons figured into the why behind the choice.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”

This verse taken alone is far out of context of the Gospel. Our theology has it that people choose hell, we are not “cast” there. The verse has to be carefully explained, otherwise it contradicts God’s forgiveness. The prodigal son’s father wants His son back, even when he is out sinning.

God sends souls to hell. People don’t go to hell on their own. It requires judgement FIRST.
And we don’t judge ourselves.

OneSheep:

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave? Is it only out of self-preservation that people avoid sin? Well, it may be true for some people. For those people, fear is a very good thing. All of us need some degree of fear when we are children and do not have empathy and love as our primary guide.

Who in the world are you getting your theology from?

 

[OneSheep]

A&E knowingly disobeyed God, and the punishment was administered.

Yes, this is the way I see it too. I think A&E did knowingly disobey.

However, did they know what they were doing, when considering an all-inclusive sense of knowing, as in knowing everything relevant? No, because if they had, they would not have sinned. Their state of knowing was when they had the regret and shame, not when they were caught up in desire.

So you are judging God and His decision?

I don’t take the story literally.

so Adam and Eve are now robots?

What happened to the part all humanity is created in the image and likeness of God?

Of course they are not robots. I was only explaining that it only takes a bit of intelligence to come up with the option to lie. Is the tone of your question accusational?

you just judged God and found God wrong in His judgement of A&E.

Did you just judge my statement as “judging”?

In my opinion, the story of A&E is about the addition of the conscience to A&E. Of course the story is going to have many if not all of the elements of the conscience in it. In the story God responded exactly how our consciences do, with the desire to punish wrongdoing.

The Linns say “If you read something in scripture that makes it seem like God loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.” My own father loves me very much, and I am graced that he is still alive. He forgives every stupid thing I have ever done.

Forgiveness is an act of love. Does God loves me less than my own dad? I have said hurtful things to him that he often found amusing, because he knows they came from a position of lack of knowing. Is this “made up” image of God invalid? I have disobeyed him, but he always listened to what I had to say for myself, even when I was just making a bunch of lame excuses. He listened with a knowing heart and mind. My dad isn’t perfect, but he is an amazing dad!

And when thinking about it, you know what? My dad doesn’t fear hell or fear God, not in my observation. He’s not worried about it. My dad is a very non-uptight person.

From where comes your different image?

 

[OneSheep]

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave? Is it only out of self-preservation that people avoid sin? Well, it may be true for some people. For those people, fear is a very good thing. All of us need some degree of fear when we are children and do not have empathy and love as our primary guide.

Who in the world are you getting your theology from?

People who love me show me who God is. Now, are you going to answer my question? If you did not fear hell, would you behave?

The first question is, why is the person choosing to sin, even though he fears hell? For the sake of clarity, can we say he is choosing to steal something? Commit adultery? Pick a sin, please, it may help.

And when I’m asking “why is the person choosing?” what I am not looking for is an evaluation, but the reasons in the person’s mind for choosing to sin even if those words are in the forefront.

You can’t ask why something is chosen, then say you don’t want evlaluation or reasons figured into the why behind the choice.

I think you missed the word “but” in my post. I am looking for the reasons, what is going on in his mind. I am not looking for evaluations or general conclusions.

Are you going to answer the question?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

A&E knowingly disobeyed God, and the punishment was administered.

Yes, this is the way I see it too. I think A&E did knowingly disobey.

However, did they know what they were doing, when considering an all-inclusive sense of knowing, as in knowing everything relevant? No, because if they had, they would not have sinned. Their state of knowing was when they had the regret and shame, not when they were caught up in desire.

So you are judging God and His decision?

I don’t take the story literally.

so Adam and Eve are now robots?

What happened to the part all humanity is created in the image and likeness of God?

Of course they are not robots. I was only explaining that it only takes a bit of intelligence to come up with the option to lie. Is the tone of your question accusational?

you just judged God and found God wrong in His judgement of A&E.

Did you just judge my statement as “judging”?

In my opinion, the story of A&E is about the addition of the conscience to A&E. Of course the story is going to have many if not all of the elements of the conscience in it. In the story God responded exactly how our consciences do, with the desire to punish wrongdoing.

The Linns say “If you read something in scripture that makes it seem like God loves you less than the person who loves you most, then something is amiss.” My own father loves me very much, and I am graced that he is still alive. He forgives every stupid thing I have ever done.

Forgiveness is an act of love. Does God loves me less than my own dad? I have said hurtful things to him that he often found amusing, because he knows they came from a position of lack of knowing. Is this “made up” image of God invalid? I have disobeyed him, but he always listened to what I had to say for myself, even when I was just making a bunch of lame excuses. He listened with a knowing heart and mind. My dad isn’t perfect, but he is an amazing dad!

And when thinking about it, you know what? My dad doesn’t fear hell or fear God, not in my observation. He’s not worried about it. My dad is a very non-uptight person.

From where comes your different image?

In the story of the Prodigal son, what did the father say about that son when he saw that son far off ?

“this son of mine was dead but now he is alive” Luke 15:24 RSVCE - for this my son was dead, and is alive - Bible Gateway

If the son wasn’t sorry, and did not return to the father, what would have happened to him?

Let’s not forget who is telling the story.

 

[OneSheep]

In the story of the Prodigal son, what did the father say about that son when he saw that son far off ?

“this son of mine was dead but now he is alive” Luke 15:24 RSVCE - for this my son was dead, and is alive - Bible Gateway

Let’s not forget who is telling the story.

From what I can best surmise, the words “enslaved” and “dead” are used somewhat interchangeably in the Gospels. The prodigal son was dead, enslaved to his passions and desires. He suffered, and 17 “… he came to his senses…

If we are using the word “knowing” in an all-inclusive sense, that is, knowing what is relevant, the son did not know what he was doing.

If he had known the suffering he would endure, would he squandered all his father’s money? Again, we are talking about a person dead, enslaved, blind. When the money was gone, and he suffered and was sorry he had done what he had done, he woke up and realized he had been in the wrong. Many NT references to “death” have the same parallels.

Actually the father said that when his son was with him.

If the son wasn’t sorry, and did not return to the father, what would have happened to him?

If it was you, what would the person who loves you most (as the father) do ? Would he forgive, or would he hold it against you?

 

[steve-b]

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave? Is it only out of self-preservation that people avoid sin? Well, it may be true for some people. For those people, fear is a very good thing. All of us need some degree of fear when we are children and do not have empathy and love as our primary guide.

steve-b:

No law, no order. Know law, know order.

The wise, fear God Psalm 111:10 RSVCE - The fear of the LORD is the beginning - Bible Gateway

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction Proverbs 1:7 RSVCE - The fear of the LORD is the beginning - Bible Gateway

the reason Satan is winning souls , is because he has taught people to disobey God, rationalize everything away, and in particular, NOT fear God.

It’s why Jesus told us in advance

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

Who in the world are you getting your theology from?

OneSheep:

People who love me show me who God is. Now, are you going to answer my question? If you did not fear hell, would you behave?

Steve-b:

What did I just quote above?

The first question is, why is the person choosing to sin, even though he fears hell? For the sake of clarity, can we say he is choosing to steal something? Commit adultery? Pick a sin, please, it may help.

And when I’m asking “why is the person choosing?” what I am not looking for is an evaluation, but the reasons in the person’s mind for choosing to sin even if those words are in the forefront.

You can’t ask why something is chosen, then say you don’t want evlaluation or reasons figured into the why behind the choice.

OneSheep:

I think you missed the word “but” in my post. I am looking for the reasons, what is going on in his mind. I am not looking for evaluations or general conclusions.

Are you going to answer the question?

You’re getting mired down in excuse therapy

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

In the story of the Prodigal son, what did the father say about that son when he saw that son far off ?

“this son of mine was dead but now he is alive” Luke 15:24 RSVCE - for this my son was dead, and is alive - Bible Gateway

Let’s not forget who is telling the story.

From what I can best surmise, the words “enslaved” and “dead” are used somewhat interchangeably in the Gospels. The prodigal son was dead, enslaved to his passions and desires. He suffered, and 17 “… he came to his senses…

If we are using the word “knowing” in an all-inclusive sense, that is, knowing what is relevant, the son did not know what he was doing.

If he had known the suffering he would endure, would he squandered all his father’s money? Again, we are talking about a person dead, enslaved, blind. When the money was gone, and he suffered and was sorry he had done what he had done, he woke up and realized he had been in the wrong. Many NT references to “death” have the same parallels.

Actually the father said that when his son was with him.

If the son wasn’t sorry, and did not return to the father, what would have happened to him?

If it was you, what would the person who loves you most (as the father) do ? Would he forgive, or would he hold it against you?

Who was it that was telling the story? It was Jesus.

Who do you suppose the “father” was in the story?
Who was the prodigal son?

As the father said, The prodigal son in the story was dead to the father while away doing his deeds. Did the father go out looking for that son while away? No

If the son didn’t come back full of remorse, that son would have remained away AND dead! What part of that is not getting through? Somehow your theology is a consequence free existence.

 

[OneSheep]

Did the father go out looking for that son while away? No

Well if I was your dad, I would go looking for you. Do you remember the parables about the lost sheep?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Did the father go out looking for that son while away? No

Well if I was your dad, I would go looking for you. Do you remember the parables about the lost sheep?

Who told that parable?

When His own disciples left Jesus because they wouldn’t believe, what taught , Jesus let them go and they didn’t return Jn6:66-69 RSVCE - After this many of his disciples drew - Bible Gateway

 

[OneSheep]

Are you going to answer the question?

You can’t ask why something is chosen, then say you don’t want evlaluation or reasons figured into the why behind the choice.

No, I just want to know the person’s reasons, what is actually going on in his mind, not a general conclusion or evaluation. For example, you could pick one of the following, or make up another.

A. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but I don’t care, I am a piece of garbage and I want to suffer forever.”
B. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but He was just joshing.”
C. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but God knows that the people I am hurting deserve this happening to them.”
D. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, they say, but I don’t believe in God.”
E. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but it is more important for me to have this.”

Feel free to choose something else!

 

[steve-b]

OneSheep:

Are you going to answer the question?

You can’t ask why something is chosen, then say you don’t want evlaluation or reasons figured into the why behind the choice.

No, I just want to know the person’s reasons, what is actually going on in his mind, not a general conclusion or evaluation. For example, you could pick one of the following, or make up another.

A. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but I don’t care, I am a piece of garbage and I want to suffer forever.”
B. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but He was just joshing.”
C. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but God knows that the people I am hurting deserve this happening to them.”
D. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, they say, but I don’t believe in God.”
E. “God can cast me into hell if I do this, but it is more important for me to have this.”

Feel free to choose something else!

I think You have trouble with authority.

If God says to you to do something, your answer should be okay. But somehow I think your immediate answer to Him is WHY?

 

[notforgotten]

Here, Saint Paul speaks on sin.

Romans 7:15-20. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He says that he does not understand why he sins. That it is not himself that sins, he wants to do good, but it is the sin within himself that makes him do what he does not want to do.

 

[OneSheep]

I think You have trouble with authority.

If God says to you to do something, your answer should be okay. But somehow I think your immediate answer to Him is WHY?

Steve, you are incorrigible. I gave you a multiple choice question, and even gave you an out for any answer you wanted!

Yet still, you revert to analyzing and concluding, making general statements and asking questions rather than actually trying to understand people.

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave?

No law, no order. Know law, know order.

I think this is your answer to the question! So, if I read between the lines, I think you are saying that if you did not fear God, you would not behave. If that is indeed the case, please fear God . Now most Catholics these days say that when the Bible talks about “fear of God”, the word fear has to do with respect or reverence, not actual fear. But if I am reading things right, you are a great example of someone for whom outright fear is best.

It might be helpful to know that for you, some day empathy and love in themselves can be a guide that does not need strict guidelines, and it might also be helpful if you could reflect on “Man is not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath made for man”. When I say “helpful”, I mean that perhaps you may come to see that there are different ways of looking at the Gospel, even in our Catholic Church, and there is plenty of room for such differences.

Blessings to you! Thanks for the interesting discussion.

 

[steve-b]

Here, Saint Paul speaks on sin.

Romans 7:15-20. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

He says that he does not understand why he sins. That it is not himself that sins, he wants to do good, but it is the sin within himself that makes him do what he does not want to do.

In Romans ch 7, Paul mentions “the law” 23 times. The law he refers to is the 613 Mosaic laws http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

2 groups of people were in the Church.

1. Jewish converts
2. Gentile converts

The argument at the time, do Gentiles have to obey the Mosaic laws like the Jewish members, to be saved.

Peter in Galatians | Catholic Answers Magazine

Paul was making the point and the distinction in Romans 7 with Galatians, if one followed those laws for “salvation” they were corrupting the faith in Jesus