Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[OneSheep]

You are saying that sin is “irrational”, yet there is quite a bit of rationalizing prior to sinful acts occurring.

Sin by definition is irrational, friend, you can look it up. Yes, rationalizing is also irrational - in my observation.

I am not speaking so much about “order in society”, as I deal with people who have already been a menace to society, so asserting anything changes nothing, nor is it useful.

If the person sees that he did know better and should have known better, then fear of guilt may make him pay more attention next time. It serves as a deterrent, right? The conscience itself serves as a deterrent.

I don’t think "incorrect’ as much as incomplete. It is a very good explanation on many levels, and takes a very unique and useful perspective on conscience and especially forgiveness.

Thanks, Guanophore, that means a lot coming from you.

The problem I see is that the Catechism would need to be redacted for it to fit. All the references to mortal sin would need to be removed, since there really is no “mortal” sin in your observation.

There could possibly be needed some clarification in a going-back-to-the-Gospel way. Am I alive when I am obsessed with sin? The prodigal son was dead and came back to life by the words of his father. St. Paul also refers to being “dead” while we are still walking around with our hearts beating.

Addicts are puppets to their addiction, right? The do not have a spiritual life, only a robotic, biological one, completely out of touch with the vibrancy of the Lord within. I am dead when I am overwhelmed with work or caught up in resentment.

But you see, a fear-based spirituality is so natural and functional, and in that sense, the current definitions and wording in the CCC are poignant; there is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit was/is involved in the writing. If further development is necessary, its a long time away.

 

[OneSheep]

I would stipulate that perfect prudence would prevent sins.

I also note that perfect prudence would not be different in quality from omnipotence.

Hmmm. A difference in quality, perhaps you are right when wording it that way. I think that a person could be perfect in self-awareness without being omniscient, but since omniscience in itself is an absolute, and perfect prudence is an absolute, then the quality is not different.

If you are agreeing that a person with “perfect prudence” would not sin, then perhaps you can also see that anything less than perfect prudence makes sin more likely to happen. This brings us back to the word “sufficient”. If “sufficient” is “sufficient in prudence”, then when there is sufficient prudence, the sin won’t happen. And since prudence has prayerful awareness in its foundation, we are back to the word “know” (in the all-inclusive sense). Prudence itself involves a “knowing”. That’s all part of the “paradigm” I guess.

You are sure to disagree with something in that paragraph, so please provide a counter-point. I truly had no “pushiness” in tone/mind when I wrote it. I think I’m getting much better about not having to be “right”, and certainly not to win an argument.

God does not require us to reach perfection before He enjoins us not to commit sin. Since He does not command us to do that which is not possible for us, I would have to deduce that a person with imperfect prudence can still choose not to sin.

Yes, everyone can choose not to sin. We covered that with the addict example a few pages back.

 

[OneSheep]

Well, I’m not so sure that those who find themselves confessing the same sins in the confessional time and time again don’t realize they are sinning.

They may realize they are sinning, yes, they probably do, but do they know what they are doing? What I am saying is that there is more to knowing what one is doing than just knowing that it is a sin.

 

[CradleRC58]

They may realize they are sinning, yes, they probably do, but do they know what they are doing? What I am saying is that there is more to knowing what one is doing than just knowing that it is a sin.

Well this is a long thread and you may have already done so but please define “knowing what one is doing”.

If one realizes that he or she has sinned and goes to confession to confess that sin, they certainly know why there is a need to confess it. If they commit that sin again, they know darn good and well what they’re doing in my opinion. They know exactly what they’re doing.

Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[simpleas]

Doesn’t this suggest that we are not in control of our passions., nor do we know what the consequence of that passion will be.
If we touch a hot stove we get burnt, we learn pretty quick not to touch it again.
Sometimes we do something and immediately think “gosh I shouldn’t have done that” but we did, why do we do that?

Seems some things are clearer to understand, others not so much. Impluse plays a big part in our actions and words.

Questioning our actions and words obviously helps us gain an understanding of why we and others do things that aren’t good for us all, the more we try to understand the better as we are less likely to repeat a sin over and over once it is learnt.
Just going to confession and being sorry in that moment may not cut it for most people.

 

[Curious11]

I sure do. It’s like Kendrick Lamar said: I am a sinner, who’s probably gonna sin again.
Not proud of it, but I can’t claim I don’t know God dislikes what I do

 

[Kts1816]

I was so ignorant till old age…when find out sins i was so desperate

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

Well this is a long thread and you may have already done so but please define “knowing what one is doing”.

It is a matter of knowing everything relevant to the sin, such that if a person had known, in the moment of choosing to sin, the particular fact, feeling, or anything else, they would have chosen not to sin.

If one realizes that he or she has sinned and goes to confession to confess that sin, they certainly know why there is a need to confess it.

Exactly. We have “hindsight” because when we are confessing we feel regret. So the observation is that people are much more “in the know” when they are feeling regret than when they are choosing to sin. Prudence is having the presence of mind, concupiscence and resentment have a way of altering our reality.

If they commit that sin again, they know darn good and well what they’re doing in my opinion. They know exactly what they’re doing.

Blindness happens when we have strong desire or are set on carrying out justice (with resentment). These emotions have us believing untruths. If we enter into exactly what is going on in the mind of the person who chooses to sin, we can find a whole lot of irrational thoughts. If we actually discern all the possibilities of what goes on in a person’s mind, what I am observing can be demonstrated. Would you like to give it a try together?

they know darn good

This is the voice of our conscience, it says “we are to condemn people who make such choices again, because they knew better.” It is a good voice, it guides our behaviors and helps us guide those of other people.

Again, this is just my opinion.

That is not “just” anything. Everything I am saying here is based on my experience and observation along with what I know of the Gospel, and it is very likely you could say the same, right? There is more than one valid approach to the question of this thread.

The aim of the thread is investigate why people sin, in the hopes that we can understand ourselves and one another when we make the worst of choices, as Jesus understood why we made the bad choice to end His life.

 

[OneSheep]

So, do you “know” more when you are sinning, or do you “know” more when you feel the regret?

Prudence is a “presence of mind”.

 

[OneSheep]

I was so ignorant till old age…when find out sins i was so desperate

Despair is certainly one of the emotions that blinds us of reality.

 

[Curious11]

Both. When I’m sinning I know I’m doing wrong, I know I’ll regret it (hopefully). But I find some weasel way to justify it to myself or ignore God

 

[OneSheep]

Hi Simpleas!

If we touch a hot stove we get burnt, we learn pretty quick not to touch it again.

Yeah, but if there was some pleasure in touching that stove, the mind might alter that remembrance of what the burn felt like. I think we can be that blind.

Sometimes we do something and immediately think “gosh I shouldn’t have done that” but we did, why do we do that?

Seems some things are clearer to understand, others not so much. Impluse plays a big part in our actions and words.

We did it because we did not have the presence of mind that we had when we felt the regret.

Questioning our actions and words obviously helps us gain an understanding of why we and others do things that aren’t good for us all, the more we try to understand the better as we are less likely to repeat a sin over and over once it is learnt.

Just going to confession and being sorry in that moment may not cut it for most people.

It depends, I think. Ultimately choices happen “in the now”, so when we observe our emotions and how they are effecting us in the moment, then to the degree that we are so connected, to that degree we will choose not to sin. Desire and resentment alter our realities. Eve saw that the fruit was “good to eat”, but in the long run, it was not. She had regret.

 

[OneSheep]

Both. When I’m sinning I know I’m doing wrong, I know I’ll regret it (hopefully). But I find some weasel way to justify it to myself or ignore God

Yes, this is the way the mind works, it is desire that pushes the “weaseling”, we believe something that is untrue, and our own consciences get compromised in the moment. This is not a “knowing”. The prudent person has a presence of mind and is able to transcend the effects of his desires and bad feelings toward others. A person who has mastered prudence avoids sin.

The people who hung Jesus were driven by their resentment. They did not see His value because they were blind.

 

[Curious11]

I am blind

 

[OneSheep]

I am blind

Such an observation is crucial when developing prudence. All of us are subject to blindness. There is a way out of the blindness through prayer, awareness in the moment.

If the blindness is induced by resentment, forgiveness is the remedy.

 

[Kts1816]

In what way?
I grew up with no such education.
Thanks

 

[guanophore]

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Gen 6:5.

This is the result of the fall - the tendency toward evil that the Latin Church calls concupiscene

If the person sees that he did know better and should have known better, then fear of guilt may make him pay more attention next time. It serves as a deterrent, right? The conscience itself serves as a deterrent.

When it is functioning properly, indeed.

Am I alive when I am obsessed with sin?

I suppose this is true, just like a person knows they are alive when they are in pain, like having a huge wound. This is not, however, as I think you would agree, what Jesus taught about having life more abundantly.

St. Paul also refers to being “dead” while we are still walking around with our hearts beating.

Yes. People who are dead in their sins are controlled by the world, the flesh, and the devil. Though their conscience may tell them they are doing wrong, they lack the ability to change.

Addicts are puppets to their addiction, right?

Largely, unless they are in recovery.

The do not have a spiritual life

I think they do, but it is very dark, infused with the demonic. Many of them talk about seeing and hearing demons, hearing voices to kill themselves, and they have terrible nightmares of death and violence.

I am dead when I am overwhelmed with work or caught up in resentment.

Yes! I would say that whenever we are not centered in Christ we fall into this deadness, whether it is work, sports, drugs, sex, etc.

I think that a person could be perfect in self-awareness without being omniscient

Certainly humans are capable of much more self-awareness than they generally do, but I don’t think complete is possible, on account of the parts of ourselves that lie within the unconscious. As Paul says, we cannot even judge ourselves because we cannot know what is hidden within.

"I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself. I Cor. 4;3

"…since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, Rom 2:16

You have done a great deal of work on conscience, how it is formed, and how it functions. Are you familiar with the JoHari Window?

 

[simpleas]

Yeah, but if there was some pleasure in touching that stove, the mind might alter that remembrance of what the burn felt like. I think we can be that blind.

This is too simplified for me… there would be no pleasure after the stove was touched, therefore the mind would avoid touching it again, unless the person suffered from the condition Ashlyn or were mentally impaired to some degree (which would be no fault on their part).

 

[simpleas]

We did it because we did not have the presence of mind that we had when we felt the regret.

Yes, of course, or else we would be feeling sorrowful all the time…

 

[simpleas]

It depends, I think. Ultimately choices happen “in the now”, so when we observe our emotions and how they are effecting us in the moment, then to the degree that we are so connected, to that degree we will choose not to sin. Desire and resentment alter our realities. Eve saw that the fruit was “good to eat”, but in the long run, it was not. She had regret.

Partly agree here, sometimes depending on the situation we can observe our emotions and turn away from what would cause us to sin, other times in the moment no observation of emotions happen, the impulse to act in that moment overrides any thoughts.
Regret does not stop sin, most people regret a sin, but still commit the sin over and over, so they may not be experiencing regret at all.

Hello BTW.