Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[guanophore]

Ultimately choices happen “in the now”, so when we observe our emotions and how they are effecting us in the moment, then to the degree that we are so connected, to that degree we will choose not to sin. Desire and resentment alter our realities.

I agree that our choices do happen “in the now”, but there are some choices that are pre-meditated. Sometimes people plan wrongdoing in advance, think about it, get some other people to help them with it, etc.

I also agree that desire (passions) and resentment alter the way we perceive things, but not necessarily enough to “blind” us to the fact that sin is occurring. I agree with your premise that if a person could consider “all the possibilties” and outcomes of our actions, perhaps we might choose not to sin. But sometimes people do see the outcomes, and choose them deliberately.

 

[guanophore]

The people who hung Jesus were driven by their resentment. They did not see His value because they were blind.

Those responsible for driving the call for crucifixion, perhaps. The soldiers who tortured him may just be sadistic people that enjoy hurting/punishing others. They may have had a resentment about being posted in Jerusalem, which many Roman soldiers found to be on the *ss end of the world, far from civilization and the comforts of Roman culture. They may not have had anything against Jesus in particular.

The soldiers who performed the crucifixion were not likely the same ones that mocked him while he was with Pilate. They were executioners, and may have tried to stay detached from what they were doing because it was their job. At least one of them seemed to be deeply impacted by His crucifixion.

 

[guanophore]

Such an observation is crucial when developing prudence. All of us are subject to blindness. There is a way out of the blindness through prayer, awareness in the moment.

If the blindness is induced by resentment, forgiveness is the remedy.

I agree, but the Church teaches us that we develop prudence by conforming our conscience with that of the Church teachings. The teachings are quite specific on what is considered mortal sin. I agree that this inner psychological preparation is also important (and critical for some of us) but I don’t see how it can replace what exists in terms of faith formation.

 

[OneSheep]

In what way?

I grew up with no such education.

Thanks

Like all of the strong emotions, despair focuses our attention on what is needed. So, for example, it takes more discipline for a person to be considerate of the needs of others when one is in despair. A person in despair is more likely to inadvertently hurt others when trying to get his needs met.

The most obvious example is the addict who is desperate for his fix. His own conscience is often severely effected by his despair, rationalizing stealing from his loved ones. “I’ll pay them back” and other untruths enter his mind. “They don’t really need this”. Despair is one of the emotions that can block empathy.

 

[Kts1816]

Ok yes thanks

 

[Kts1816]

I have always had empaty

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” Gen 6:5.

This is the result of the fall - the tendency toward evil that the Latin Church calls concupiscene

What I see is that the capacity for strong desire is an uninvited aspect of our human nature, and since such desire drives us to do some sins, our healthy conscience comes to resent the desires themselves. If the drives themselves can be described as “modules”, then it appears that the modules become part of our shadow selves. We very naturally come to resent part of ourselves, which is part of the amazing function of the conscience itself. When our imaginations come up with an idea to sin, we see it as wicked, and the healthy conscience condemns the thought.

And since this part of our nature certainly comes from God, it is also very natural to conclude that the voice of the conscience is the voice of God - and this helps. For a person with an undeveloped empathy (especially children), it is fear and self-condemnation that will be the primary guide the choices made. This is also the way that psychopaths can remain in control of their own behaviors, by fear of consequence, though the consequences for them are more effective when they are external, in my understanding.

I think they do, but it is very dark, infused with the demonic. Many of them talk about seeing and hearing demons, hearing voices to kill themselves, and they have terrible nightmares of death and violence.

Yeah, well, not much of a life. Not “abundant”. Close enough to “dead”. Their spiritual life is alienated, correct?

 

[OneSheep]

there would be no pleasure after the stove was touched,

Yeah, it wa an imaginary “if a person had pleasure in touching the stove”. The point was that It is desire that blinds us, and since there is no desire when it comes to touching stoves, the blindness won’t occur.

Yes, of course, or else we would be feeling sorrowful all the time…

We do have, though, the ability to actually learn. When we have suffered enough regret and other consequences, our awareness level rises, we have grown in wisdom. We can have the “presence of mind” without the regret.

Partly agree here, sometimes depending on the situation we can observe our emotions and turn away from what would cause us to sin, other times in the moment no observation of emotions happen, the impulse to act in that moment overrides any thoughts.

I have been learning a little about the cognitive science behind the phenomenon. Emotions have a coupled “imperative” in the mind. For some reason when we identify and pay attention to the emotion, take a step back from it, the imperative is weakened and can go away. The observation of emotions is a meditation, a prayer.

Regret does not stop sin, most people regret a sin, but still commit the sin over and over, so they may not be experiencing regret at all.

Simpleas, I never knew that you were such a pessimist! Regret can certainly modify the behaviors of people, but we can all think of cases where regret has not had the desired effect, so one may quickly recall those and not the times that regret worked! There really is such a thing as growing in wisdom, and wisdom is educated in part by regret.

People who sin over and over have not suffered enough to gain such wisdom. The addict has to “hit bottom” to want to recover.

Hello BTW.

It’s always nice to hear from you.

 

[OneSheep]

I have always had empaty

Really? Not me.

When I am caught up in wanting justice, when I condemn people for doing acts of evil, my empathy is blocked toward the perpetrator. The people who hung Jesus and the other two crucified that day had this empathy-block in their mind.

A person overwhelmed with desire may steal, rape, do all sorts of evil, the desire has blocked their empathy and has perverted their conscience, (if they have a well-formed conscience at all).

 

[OneSheep]

I agree that our choices do happen “in the now”, but there are some choices that are pre-meditated. Sometimes people plan wrongdoing in advance, think about it, get some other people to help them with it, etc.

Even a pre-meditated choice, though, is chosen at a moment, and at that moment (or moments) and to the degree that a person is prudent/present/connected, to that degree he will choose not to sin.

But sometimes people do see the outcomes, and choose them deliberately.

Yes, and the most extreme example is the psychopath that actually wants the bad outcome because it feeds his desire for dominance in some way. Another psychopath may have a “neutral” effect concerning the consequences, even though such consequences include someone’s death. So you see what i am saying, there is much more to “knowing” than knowing consequences in an “outcome”-sort-of-way. Is the person seeing value in the person harmed, such that the value of the person is that of his own mother or child?

I think we have been through this before, though, so I apologize for repeating. Please don’t take this as trying to convince you.

The soldiers who tortured him may just be sadistic people that enjoy hurting/punishing others.

If they would do the same to their own children, that would be a true pathology. To the degree that I don’t see infinite value in someone, I am blind.

 

[OneSheep]

I don’t think complete is possible, on account of the parts of ourselves that lie within the unconscious. As Paul says, we cannot even judge ourselves because we cannot know what is hidden within.

What we can do is investigate all the parts of ourselves that we resent. The shadow is finite in this regard. We can “shine the light” on these parts of ourselves, and the darkness goes away. We can come to see that every part of ourselves, even the parts of ourselves that we naturally condemn, come from God.

When there is even a little bit of darkness, it is an unknown, and every unknown is an infinite unknown, so “the darkness is great”. When all of the known internal resentments are addressed, what is instead seen within is an infinite light. In my own experience, those parts of ourselves that we are completely unaware of do not enter into this phenomenon. To experience darkness, we have to actually see it. That darkness is manifest in self-condemnation, so an internal investigation of ourselves when we are self-condemning is fruitful. I ask myself “Why did I think/do/want that?”, and if I get the answer “because I am wicked/evil/unworthy etc.” then I know I have to take a deeper look, I have simply run into the shadow. There is always an answer. To some degree I think the conscience actually resists awareness, as the conscience has a protective function.

So for me, once in a great while (the last time was a couple years ago) some part of the condemned self surfaces, and then I address it, starting with painful admission that I do the very thing I condemn, I have the very characteristic in myself that I condemn in others.

You have done a great deal of work on conscience, how it is formed, and how it functions. Are you familiar with the JoHari Window?

I had to look it up on Wikipedia. Is it useful in working with the people you serve?

 

[simpleas]

Yeah, it wa an imaginary “if a person had pleasure in touching the stove”. The point was that It is desire that blinds us, and since there is no desire when it comes to touching stoves, the blindness won’t occur.

I was thinking about how we learn from a physical hurt (like the touching of the stove) alot quicker than we learn from a spiritual hurt.

The observation of emotions is a meditation, a prayer.

I like that thought.

Simpleas, I never knew that you were such a pessimist! Regret can certainly modify the behaviors of people, but we can all think of cases where regret has not had the desired effect, so one may quickly recall those and not the times that regret worked! There really is such a thing as growing in wisdom, and wisdom is educated in part by regret.

Moi a pessimist? Never! lol. Wasn’t meant to sound pessimistic, it is an observation, especially from reading threads here on CAF.

 

[guanophore]

The most obvious example is the addict who is desperate for his fix. His own conscience is often severely effected by his despair, rationalizing stealing from his loved ones. “I’ll pay them back” and other untruths enter his mind. “They don’t really need this”. Despair is one of the emotions that can block empathy.

Peter makes a reference to this spiritual state:

"Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart. 23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and captive to iniquity.” Acts 8

“Bitterness” meets us, as expressing extreme moral depravity, in Romans 3:14, Ephesians 4:31, Hebrews 12:15. The latter phrase implies that the iniquity of Simon bound him as with the iron chains of a habit from which he could not free himself.

the Greek of the LXX. has, ῤίζα ἄνω φύουσα ἐν χολῇ καὶ πικρίᾳ. The context there also shows conclusively that the “gall and bitterness” (“wormwood,” A.V.) of which Moses speaks is the spirit of idolatry or defection from God springing up in some professing member of the Church, and defiling and corrupting others, as it is expounded in Hebrews 12:15, 16.

There is a slavery that comes from one’s free will being taken captive.

What I see is that the capacity for strong desire is an uninvited aspect of our human nature, and since such desire drives us to do some sins, our healthy conscience comes to resent the desires themselves.

I don’t disagree with you, but there is also a positive aspect to this strong desire. Scripture also attributes this same “strong desire” or passion to Jesus, when he desired to share the passover with His disciples.

What becomes part of the shadow or unconscious can be as much positive as negative.

We very naturally come to resent part of ourselves, which is part of the amazing function of the conscience itself.

Would you say that Jesus resented himself for having a strong desire?

When our imaginations come up with an idea to sin, we see it as wicked, and the healthy conscience condemns the thought.

Do you think that Jesus’ desire to avoid the cup of suffering before the crucifixion should have been condemned?

 

[guanophore]

This is also the way that psychopaths can remain in control of their own behaviors, by fear of consequence, though the consequences for them are more effective when they are external, in my understanding.

I think it has more to do with getting their own needs met. Psychopaths have a generous supply of narcissism.

Have you ever considered the theory of change as presented by Prochaska and DiClemente? It is an interesting perspective on motivation that has not been applied much to theology.

Yeah, well, not much of a life. Not “abundant”. Close enough to “dead”. Their spiritual life is alienated, correct?

I think you are approaching this from a biased perspective. Satanic spirituality is very real. Alienated by God, certainly , but their spiritual life is alive and well! Give a little read of the Epistle of Jude.

The observation of emotions is a meditation, a prayer.

This is the foundation of the contemplative tradition.

People who sin over and over have not suffered enough to gain such wisdom. The addict has to “hit bottom” to want to recover.

Perhaps, but we have also learned that the “bottom” can be moved “up”. Motivation is a complex and interesting phenomena. Reasoning can be harvested to replace suffering if sufficient discrepancy is developed.

A person overwhelmed with desire may steal, rape, do all sorts of evil, the desire has blocked their empathy and has perverted their conscience, (if they have a well-formed conscience at all).

I suggest that a conscience is even more easily perverted when it is NOT well formed!

What we can do is investigate all the parts of ourselves that we resent. The shadow is finite in this regard. We can “shine the light” on these parts of ourselves, and the darkness goes away. We can come to see that every part of ourselves, even the parts of ourselves that we naturally condemn, come from God.

I agree with you, but how would you propose that such a thing be done? It seems that it would be difficult to examine that which lies outside conscious awareness.

 

[guanophore]

When all of the known internal resentments are addressed, what is instead seen within is an infinite light. In my own experience, those parts of ourselves that we are completely unaware of do not enter into this phenomenon.

I agree that we have a responsibility to examine and address all our known internal resentments, but it seems that the greater damage comes from those that lie in the unconscious.

That darkness is manifest in self-condemnation, so an internal investigation of ourselves when we are self-condemning is fruitful.

I agree, and I also agree that some of this work can be done by self dialogue, such as asking ourselves questions, but this is still within the realm of consciousness.

There is always an answer. To some degree I think the conscience actually resists awareness, as the conscience has a protective function.

And what if what lies within the unconscious is not conscience?

So for me, once in a great while (the last time was a couple years ago) some part of the condemned self surfaces, and then I address it, starting with painful admission that I do the very thing I condemn, I have the very characteristic in myself that I condemn in others.

Yes, this is one of the most effective methods identified by Jung. He taught that one of the most useful ways to discover our own shadow is to observe what it is in others that produces strong emotions in us. Since we have a default setting to project what is unwanted in ourselves on to others, we would become conscious of it by observing the emotions triggered in us by others.

Is it useful in working with the people you serve?

I think it is useful in understanding human nature.

 

[OneSheep]

There is a slavery that comes from one’s free will being taken captive.

To me, this is one of the key, if not the most important, reason for the incarnation: to show us how to transcend our nature.

I don’t disagree with you, but there is also a positive aspect to this strong desire. Scripture also attributes this same “strong desire” or passion to Jesus, when he desired to share the passover with His disciples.

What becomes part of the shadow or unconscious can be as much positive as negative.

This is my point also. We can come to reconcile with the “strong desires” by seeing their positive, their purpose in our nature. God’s creation is functionally beautiful. But do you agree that part of our conscience formation is to naturally come to resent these desires?

Would you say that Jesus resented himself for having a strong desire?

What we know is that Jesus “grew in wisdom”. Did He form a conscience the natural human way and then transend it, or did his supernatural awareness form a conscience that did not involve a shadow? I have no idea. Either way, if during His adult ministry He was self-judging while telling us not to judge, that seems to be a contradiction. As a child/adolescent, maybe He did resent His desires. What do you think?

Related question: Did Jesus experience “strong desires” in the way that we do, such that they can pervert our minds? If so, He was able to address the perversions as quickly as they arose, but maybe those “perversions” did not occur for Him. These are more of the human/divine details that don’t matter much though…

The “growth in wisdom” argument applied to His own spiritual development can be taken to an extreme. For example, did He forgive the Pharisees in His earlier encounters in the way He did from the cross? If not, was this part of His “growth in wisdom”? These are interesting questions, but to me they make no difference in terms of how I see Him. He is my Lord and Savior.

Do you think that Jesus’ desire to avoid the cup of suffering before the crucifixion should have been condemned?

Hmmm. Did Jesus condemn His own desire to avoid the cup? (I think that is what you are asking)

Did Jesus tell everyone not to judge (condemn), but continued to self-judge like all of us in our gut-reactions? To me, Jesus had to have reached (or was born with, or whatever) an infinite level of prudence. His presence of mind had to been far faster than any gut-level reaction coming from the conscience.

Like I said, though, the picking apart of the human/divine aspect of Jesus is not really important. However He came to be in terms of His mercy, He invites us to follow, and He shows us how.

 

[OneSheep]

Have you ever considered the theory of change as presented by Prochaska and DiClemente? It is an interesting perspective on motivation that has not been applied much to theology.

I just glanced at the Wikipedia summary, and while I can see that the theory is helpful in your line of work, I don’t know how it could be applied to Theology.

alive and well

We just have different definitions of these terms, I think.

Perhaps, but we have also learned that the “bottom” can be moved “up”.

Yes, “bottom” is a very relative term.

I agree with you, but how would you propose that such a thing be done? It seems that it would be difficult to examine that which lies outside conscious awareness.

Well, to me it is impossible to examine that which is outside awareness. Like I said, we can examine the source of our resentments. Examining the source of our resentments is a “via” to internal reconciliation.

I agree that we have a responsibility to examine and address all our known internal resentments, but it seems that the greater damage comes from those that lie in the unconscious.

Yes, but the examination can happen by addressing those when they surface, and they surface when some internal rule is violated and we have gut-level reactions. When we are enslaved (a functional slavery, in a good way, but not free), we react with our gut (conscience) when certain triggers are hit, then either think we were “right” in our reaction or end up condemning our over-reaction because the reaction triggered a secondary reaction from the conscience. Then we forgive in a “I won’t be angry” superficial way and continue to go about our day.

The observational approach would be to see our reactions and then take the steps to discern from where they come. If the prayer ends in seeing that the reaction came from a goodness within, then there is a completion. The same examination can be applied to all of our “strong desires”, which we already touched on.

And what if what lies within the unconscious is not conscience?

Of course there is all kinds of stuff there, but I am only addressing the parts that I resent. I think a big part of this “via” is admitting that something is there that I do not want to admit, to make “painful admissions”. For example, when I was very critical of the controlling, manipulative behaviors of others, I was not owning up to my own desire to be in control and capacity to manipulate.

This psychology/spirituality seems to play a role in discussions concerning our current POTUS. His words and actions violate so many people’s consciences, so there is so much projection of shadow! At the same time, people who see him as a savior of sorts are in denial about his shortcomings. Their need to trust trumps their belief in what is reported (npi, I think). All interesting stuff!

 

[OneSheep]

I was thinking about how we learn from a physical hurt (like the touching of the stove) alot quicker than we learn from a spiritual hurt.

Have you ever considered the theory of change as presented by Prochaska and DiClemente?

Hi Simpleas, I think that if you google the guys that guanophore mentioned, with “theory of change”, there are some insights that address what you are talking about.

Moi a pessimist? Never! lol. Wasn’t meant to sound pessimistic, it is an observation, especially from reading threads here on CAF.

Oh, I think you are talking about people who don’t feel regret. If they don’t feel regret, that is a sure sign of a malformed conscience. I think that you would agree that people with malfomed consciences are some of the easiest ones to see that they do not have a clue what they are doing when they sin.

 

[guanophore]

But do you agree that part of our conscience formation is to naturally come to resent these desires?

I would have to go with Paul on this point:

But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Rom. 7

 

[OneSheep]

18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.

This is a direct reference to the shadow self. There is part of himself within that he has naturally come to condemn, because he cannot control the existence of his innate drives. As long as he is condemning those drives, then his conscience is functioning in his focus on them in a negative way, and in this way assists in his control of the behavior. So while the negative attention is helpful, there is yet a deeper transcending to take place when he is ready to do so. Of course, the condemnation of parts of our nature is also useful in our correction of others (in the form of gut reactions).

sin living in me

Reference to the parts of himself, the desires, that he resents. We have discussed these.

I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind

The conscience itself has a “net-positive” effect. While the conscience creates a divided self, (we see a “good” and a “bad” within, and there is a battling) which in effect compromises inner peace, creates an inner discord, the benefit of disciplined behavior (at an automatic, gut-level) outweighs the discord within. To me, this is part of the hesitance that “the gods” had in allowing A&E to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (conscience). While the conscience is very good, it also brings with it the capacity to condemn oneself and others. There is a trade-off.

The Gospel clearly pays respect to the workings of the conscience, but Jesus also invites us to transcend the conscience itself. Instead of “waging war” we can come to reconcile with all that is within. In my reading, the invitation begins with “Forgive them, for they know not what they do”.

I know, broken record.