Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[OneSheep]

You are rather mistaken in your understanding of what a psychopath is… the person has … has full knowledge of their actions

Well, you are operating from a different definition of “full knowledge”.

To me, “full knowledge” involves being cognizant of the infinite value of the human individual. The psychopath does not have this knowledge, they are operating with an extreme deficit.

Let me give a simple parallel. I slap a mosquito. Have I destroyed a thing of value? Well, in my own observation, no, the mosquito is of negative value. My destruction of the mosquito is not without consequence; indeed the destruction of the attacking mosquito is of positive consequence.

The psychopath’s grasp of human value is no different than my own view of the mosquito. To say that the psychopath has “full knowledge” of his action, then, is like saying the knowledge of value of a person versus a mosquito is of no merit.

Indeed, the knowledge of value is very relevant to a person taking hurtful action. If a person sees value in the other, he is far less likely to do harm to the other.

It appears to me that Jesus truly observed that the people saw no value in what they were destroying, that Jesus’ destruction was just and “good”. This gap in perceived value versus real value is important in understanding why people sin, and in understanding how all of us are subject to the same condition as the psychopath (albeit temporary).

As an extension, look at this statement:

“You psychopath, you worthless scum of the Earth, you defile the ground upon which you walk”

Do you see that the speaker is coming from a position of having “a post in his eye” as Jesus says? Indeed, natural resentment blinds us to value.

You do have a very in-depth understanding of psychopaths, lotus! Are you a psychologist?

 

[lotus1922]

You do have a very in-depth understanding of psychopaths, lotus! Are you a psychologist?

Haha, well that is probably one of the strangest compliments anyone has ever given me, but thank you! No, at least not professionally, but having struggled with my own mood disorders, 30 years of experience with the various pathological personalities on a particular side of my family, reading a Lot of books on the subject, and spending time with people in the mental health and law enforcement fields, I’ve probably done a lot more research on the subject than the average Joe.

It’s fascinating to me all the different ways that the human mind can go so wrong, but there’s also a lot of stigma and misinformation about people with mental health issues (usually perpetuated by Hollywood and the media and having little resemblance to the bell curve of the average mentally ill population), and terms like being “depressed” and “OCD” and “crazy” get tossed around (without negative intention) so often in casual conversation that the clinical definitions with all their severity get muddied in the dialogue. Having seen first hand so much of it, It’s kind of my personal advocacy platform

Anyway, thanks for a rousing and thought-provoking discussion. It’s not every day or every one that such heavy topics can remain civil! Have a blessed day!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey…

Key word: “must”. 1776 is addressing “ought” not “is”. Nothing in 1776 contests the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin.

1777…When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking…

Nothing in 1777 contesting the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin. Why do people not listen to their conscience? Well, people’s emotions and drives can temporarily block not only empathy, but the functioning of the conscience itself. Generally speaking it is a subconscious occurrence, not willed. When it is willed, it can be observed that the will to block out the conscience and/or empathy is done by people who do not know what they are doing.

1778 … In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right…

key word: “obliged”. Nothing in 1778 contests the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin.

Yet making excuse after excuse , won’t make for an actual excuse in the end for any of us…

Augustine DOES address the person who tries to excuse them self of sin / blame etc …even from God. see ch 3 in that link

OneSheep:

That chapter is about a person blaming God for their sins. I can’t think of how a rational person could blame God for their sins. We make the choices to behave, not God. We are not puppets.

Augustine covered the bases of how people argue.

"There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselveseven from God. The Apostle James says to such: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. …”

See? Augustine puts blame where it belongs. When the individual’s response to their own lusts leads to sin rather than them putting the brakes of those lusts.

OneSheep:

People do “blame” God for human nature, as if it is a scourge, but it is not. Our nature is beautiful, functionally beautiful.

And we are susceptible to evil, so we must make proper choices constantly to avoid evil that we are susceptible to.

 

[OneSheep]

See? Augustine puts blame where it belongs. When the individual’s response to their own lusts leads to sin rather than them putting the brakes of those lusts.

I think your statement is accurate. And when a person does not put the brakes on such lusts, the observation is that they do not know what they are doing. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I never found anything from Augustine that contests the observation.

Problems arise if/ when people use the observation as an excuse to sin, as you described, but Jesus risked the consequences in favor of showing people how to understand and forgive. Pleading ignorance for the objective of escaping penalty is folly. Responsibly discovering one’s ignorance for the objective of understanding is virtuous.

And we are susceptible to evil, so we must make proper choices constantly to avoid evil that we are susceptible to.

Yes, we must make proper choices!

Yet making excuse after excuse , won’t make for an actual excuse in the end for any of us…

Can you see, though, that my objective here is not about advocating the making of excuses, but advocating the understanding of other people, in a way that leads to forgiveness?

Look at the latest mass murder. Did he know the value of the people he killed, such that he saw their value as equal to the value of his own mother or someone he truly love? If he had known, then he would have been much less likely to murder. That man was blinded by anger and resentment, he did not have a clue what he was doing in destroying those others and himself. Anger and resentment can be replaced by sadness when one observes an extremely unfortunate chain of experiences that led to the warping of that man’s mind.

And then, take it a step further. If we express forgiveness toward the mass murderer (not right away, of course) we set a new agenda. We change the agenda of vengeance to one of forgiveness. I can guarantee this: If the man had forgiven his in-laws, he would have been far less likely to shoot anyone, if the reports we are hearing are accurate. In the man’s compromised mind, he wanted justice.

 

[OneSheep]

Anyway, thanks for a rousing and thought-provoking discussion. It’s not every day or every one that such heavy topics can remain civil! Have a blessed day!

You also! Thanks!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

See? Augustine puts blame where it belongs. When the individual’s response to their own lusts leads to sin rather than them putting the brakes of those lusts.

I think your statement is accurate. And when a person does not put the brakes on such lusts, the observation is that they do not know what they are doing.

Keep telling people that, and if they follow that horrible advice, not just you but both of you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

OneSheep:

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I never found anything from Augustine that contests the observation.

My last quote from Augustine contested your observation

OneSheep:

Pleading ignorance for the objective of escaping penalty is folly. Responsibly discovering one’s ignorance for the objective of understanding is virtuous.

One’s Ignorance needs to be completely innocent to be an escape from one’s culpability.

 

[OneSheep]

Keep telling people that, and if they follow that horrible advice, not just you but both of you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

It was observation, not advice. I agree with all the advice you have presented.

My last quote from Augustine contested your observation

Well, let’s look:

"There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselveseven from God. The Apostle James says to such: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. …

The observation that no one knows what they are doing when they sin is no more an excuse than “for they know not what they do”. Are you saying that God Himself was providing excuses for people? No, you are not, and neither was Augustine saying this. The observation is a means to forgiveness, not a means to avoid consequence. God always forgives, but forgiveness does not excuse a person from consequence or punishment, when such is delivered mercifully.

Is this starting to make sense?

One’s Ignorance needs to be completely innocent to be an escape from one’s culpability.

Can you find an example of a person who is ignorant, and intends to be ignorant, and knows what he is doing in choosing such ignorance? Can you even create such a scenario? I’ve found it impossible, one always ends up with a person who is not rational.

Try it Steve! It’s impossible.

Thanks for your responses!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Keep telling people that, and if they follow that horrible advice, not just you but both of you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

It was observation, not advice. I agree with all the advice you have presented.

Seems like you are selling your advice, not your observation

My last quote from Augustine contested your observation

OneSheep:

Well, let’s look:

"There are, however, persons who attempt to find excuse for themselves even from God. The Apostle James says to such: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. …

The observation that no one knows what they are doing when they sin is no more an excuse than “for they know not what they do”. Are you saying that God Himself was providing excuses for people? No, you are not, and neither was Augustine saying this. The observation is a means to forgiveness, not a means to avoid consequence. God always forgives, but forgiveness does not excuse a person from consequence or punishment, when such is delivered mercifully.

Is this starting to make sense?

You are selling the point, everyone is ignorant. You’re arguing No one really knows what they are doing when they sin the topic of the thread. Fast forward that argument to its conclusion, then no one is guilty of anything they do because they didn’t know what they were doing when they sin.

So what did Jesus mean by “forgive them for They” don’t know what they do?

Who are “THEY” / “THEM” who don’t/didn’t “KNOW”?

Taking a guess, remember what one of the soldiers said at the foot of the cross after the earthquake? Mt27:54 RSVCE - When the centurion and those who were - Bible Gateway
by those words, They (those pagans) admitted, prior to that event, they didn’t know who Jesus really was. Must have been one heck of an earthquake

either way, Here’s how the CCC puts it.
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

IOW, their ignorance isn’t innocent.

One’s Ignorance needs to be completely innocent to be an escape from one’s culpability.

Can you find an example of a person who is ignorant, and intends to be ignorant, and knows what he is doing in choosing such ignorance? Can you even create such a scenario? I’ve found it impossible, one always ends up with a person who is not rational.

Try it Steve! It’s impossible.

Thanks for your responses!
[/quote]

steve:

I never said one intends to be ignorant. That is a deliberate act. That disqualifies ignorance being innocent.

 

[PJM]

Well yes, the mind and soul are there, [1] but intellect develops over time, with experience. Do you remember that Jesus grew in wisdom? We all do.

[2]And what we call “pride” (which is mostly the desire for status) does indeed blind us, the desire itself compromises the efficacy of the conscience. It is really good to be aware when this is happening in the mind. It is rather an automatic phenomenon.

Yes BUT that person has died and the development of their intellect is complete as it will be until they reach their JUST eternal reward

PRIDE: Pride is the root in some manner of ALL sins. So its prevalence extends to a multiplicity of situtions

Isn’t hell chosen, though, not a place that God “sends” people? God wants all of the lost sheep, right?

Absolutely & precisely correct

[1]Are you saying that God judges people instead of forgiving? That is going to depend on the image we have, right?

[2]btw: Are you yelling?
NO just emphasis

[3]Are you saying that God judges people instead of forgiving? That is going to depend on the image we have, right?

Actually in the sense that it is WE who choose our eternal reward by our lives choices, and God, dare I say nly" confirms our choices. But the direct asner is
“yes”

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[OneSheep]

You are selling the point, everyone is ignorant. You’re arguing No one really knows what they are doing when they sin the topic of the thread.

I’m having trouble distinguishing those two sentences. Don’t they mean the same thing?

If I am “selling”, it is for the purpose of sharing the joy of understanding and forgiving people. It is a very awesome feeling!

Fast forward that argument to its conclusion, then no one is guilty of anything they do because they didn’t know what they were doing when they sin.

That is your conclusion, Steve, not mine. Everyone is guilty of every sin they commit… I say that at the risk of being very repetitive. Are you defining “guilt” as “God holds something against them”? That might change things a little. “Guilt” to me means imputability, it means people taking ownership of their choices. Do you mean that no one is “culpable/blameable” by my words? That is going to depend on the observer, but for sure we are called to forgive rather than blame, right? Yes, with understanding I do drop blame/desire to punish/.

This may seem a bit tedious, but it looks like we are defining some terms, maybe, which is something that needs to happen in the beginning, but I always fail to remember…

Who are “THEY” / “THEM” who don’t/didn’t “KNOW”?

Well, there was everyone present, plus some:

Acts 3:15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.

17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders…

IOW, their ignorance isn’t innocent.

Innocent or not, it is still their personal responsibility, but again, I cannot create a scenario where a person knows what they are doing when they choose ignorance. Just try, Steve, and you can see what I’m talking about. Try to determine what is going on in a person’s mind when he chooses ignorance, whatever it is, its not rational.

I never said one intends to be ignorant. That is a deliberate act. That disqualifies ignorance being innocent.

Well, try answering this question: “what is going on in the mind of Fred, who is choosing to be ignorant?”

 

[OneSheep]

Yes BUT that person has died and the development of their intellect is complete as it will be until they reach their JUST eternal reward

I think I have lost the reference. I looked back, but I could not figure out who you are talking about. (who died?)

PRIDE: Pride is the root in some manner of ALL sins. So its prevalence extends to a multiplicity of situtions

Well, there needs to be some definition of terms, but yes, people do desire status, and the desire for status is really pervasive, and enters into so many choices. When people are caught up in their desires, they do not make rational choices, they do not know what they are doing. Sin is irrational.

Actually in the sense that it is WE who choose our eternal reward by our lives choices, and God, dare I say nly" confirms our choices. But the direct asner is

“yes”

What do you think of the image of a “Gotcha!-God”.? For this image, God does not try to bring in the sinner, but simply looks at the list of what they did in their lives, regardless of why, and says, “see here, you thought you were in the right, but you were not”. “Gotcha!” “Now, to the down elevator with you.”

Thanks for your continued blessings! Back atcha

 

[OneSheep]

Keep telling people that, and if they follow that horrible advice, not just you but both of you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

Good Morning, Steve

I woke up this morning realizing that this is probably the most significant thing, the most underlying statement in your post.

You see, I am not saying anything new. Sin is irrational, by definition. If the person is rational, that is, they are operating with full knowledge, no blindness, with all the relevant information at the forefront, he won’t sin.

However: Your statement reflects a very natural recoil to the observation that people do not know what they are doing when they sin! Our condemnation of the sinner is an operation of the conscience, our condemnation of ourselves (emotional guilt) is what guides our behaviors when we are growing up, before we can truly allow love of neighbor to take over. Ask yourself “If I really saw that every sin I have ever done involved an unwanted ignorance, would I be more likely to sin?”.

If I am more likely to sin because I have forgiven myself in this way, through understanding an underlying ignorance, then perhaps it would be better to reject the observation! I am not ready to forgive myself, I am not ready for love to be my guide, I still need the “stick” to keep me on the right path. It’s okay.

Jesus invites us to love one another. In doing so, we no longer need the stick to guide us. The stick is still there, so fears about the stick going away, though subconscious, are unfounded. But the stick itself becomes rather obsolete when love of neighbor is truly our guiding principle. In the mean time, in forgiving oneself, which is truly knowing God’s forgiveness, we live a new “wholeness”, a holiness. When I condemn myself, beat up on myself about past actions, I am in a stressful state, enslaved, not living an “eternal life” where the “yoke is easy and the burden light”. When I instead forgive myself, I reconcile within, and I am free!

What I am saying, then, is that Jesus invites us to forgive ourselves in this deeper way. We can realize that we do not know what we are doing when we have sinned, and this brings us to a deeper reconciliation. Indeed, we can find that every choice we have ever made involves good intent, but our sight was not clear, we were usually blinded by some desire that subconsciously pushed away rational thought.

I say the above knowing full well that no amount of talking about it can convince anyone. In order to understand what I am saying, a person has to make the effort to understand their own sin by using Luke 23:34 as a guide.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You are selling the point, everyone is ignorant. You’re arguing No one really knows what they are doing when they sin the topic of the thread.

I’m having trouble distinguishing those two sentences. Don’t they mean the same thing?

If I am “selling”, it is for the purpose of sharing the joy of understanding and forgiving people. It is a very awesome feeling!

The point being made, you were no longer giving just an observation you were making your argument, selling your opinion,

Fast forward your argument to its conclusion, then no one is guilty of anything they do because they didn’t know what they were doing when they sin.

OneSheep:

That is your conclusion, Steve, not mine. Everyone is guilty of every sin they commit… I say that at the risk of being very repetitive. Are you defining “guilt” as “God holds something against them”? That might change things a little. “Guilt” to me means imputability, it means people taking ownership of their choices. Do you mean that no one is “culpable/blameable” by my words? That is going to depend on the observer, but for sure we are called to forgive rather than blame, right? Yes, with understanding I do drop blame/desire to punish/.

Look at the topic of the thread.

all emphasis mine

“Does ANYONE ever know what they are doing when they sin”?

That question suggests that no one ever knows what they are doing when they sin.

In extension,
.if no one knows what they are doing when they sin, then no one can be guilty of sin.
.if no one is guilty of sin, Jesus actions were a waste

OneSheep:

I cannot create a scenario where a person knows what they are doing when they choose ignorance. Just try, Steve, and you can see what I’m talking about.

I gave the example from the CCC
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits."

Example:

You’re having a discussion about faith and the Catholic Church with non Catholics. They all have smart phones. You ask what Ignatius of Antioch, said about the Catholic Church. It’s probably fair to say most of them don’t even know who Ignatius is. How long do you suppose it takes for the answer to appear on everyone’s phone ? What if one of them was exhibiting anti Catholic sentiments, and didn’t want to know the answer, because of their bias, so they didn’t search the name. In this case, they deliberately refuse to educate them self.

steve-b:

If one intends to be ignorant. That is a deliberate act. ignorance then isn’t innocent.

OneSheep:

Well, try answering this question: “what is going on in the mind of Fred, who is choosing to be ignorant?”

I just gave the example previously. One choosing not to know, chooses to be ignorant.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Keep telling people that, and if they follow that horrible advice, not just you but both of you will be in BIG TROUBLE!

What I am saying, then, is that Jesus invites us to forgive ourselves in this deeper way. We can realize that we do not know what we are doing when we have sinned, and this brings us to a deeper reconciliation. Indeed, we can find that every choice we have ever made involves good intent, but our sight was not clear, we were usually blinded by some desire that subconsciously pushed away rational thought.

If we can forgive ourselves, why did we need a savior? Savior from WHAT? Savior from WHO?

OneSheep:

I say the above knowing full well that no amount of talking about it can convince anyone. In order to understand what I am saying, a person has to make the effort to understand their own sin by using Luke 23:34 as a guide.

Jesus, the one who judges ALL said the following, knowing everything from the foundation of the world

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Jesus doesn’t back off His statement
Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

Why only a few are saved? Jesus said,

because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. Those who endure to the end (the few) are saved. When the gospel is preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; then the end will come.
Mt 24:12-14, Matthew 24:12-14 RSVCE - And because wickedness is multiplied, - Bible Gateway

moral of the story, always be prepared we don’t know when the end is coming for each of us.

 

[OneSheep]

If we can forgive ourselves, why did we need a savior? Savior from WHAT? Savior from WHO?

Steve, you are always coming up with these really great questions. I think that for some people, knowing that God forgives them is enough, and that is that. For many others, though, they can know of God’s forgiveness but still hang onto resentment towards themselves. For these people, they don’t truly realize God’s forgiveness because they are still imprisoned by resentment. When a person is forgiven by God, it comes from God. When a person forgives himself, it still comes from God. Jesus saves us from our captivity, this thread addresses the captivity to resentment. Forgiveness sets us free.

By following Him, we are saved from our enslavement to desires, emotions, resentments, etc.

Jesus, the one who judges ALL said the following…

Yes, I addressed these earlier.

moral of the story, always be prepared we don’t know when the end is coming for each of us.

Well, yes, that would be a reason to “be prepared” based on fear of “the end”. However, we also have much more reason to “be prepared” or to follow Christ. We have a Kingdom to build, a Kingdom built upon the values of mercy, love and forgiveness. We can all see that in our world today these principles are not prevalent. Do you agree? Christians are often criticized for being too focused on the afterlife instead of the world we live in. It is a valid criticism, is it not? Jesus was addressing life starting now, not just the afterlife. In fact, his references to the afterlife alone were very rare. Eternal life begins now, right?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If we can forgive ourselves, why did we need a savior? Savior from WHAT? Savior from WHO?

Steve, you are always coming up with these really great questions. I think that for some people, knowing that God forgives them is enough, and that is that.

. If one’s contrition (sorrow) is imperfect , how does one then know they have really been forgiven?

After all,

. why did Jesus institute the sacrament of reconciliation? Reconciliation for what and with WHOM are we reconciled?

OneSheep:

When a person is forgiven by God, it comes from God. When a person forgives himself, it still comes from God. Jesus saves us from our captivity, this thread addresses the captivity to resentment. Forgiveness sets us free.

steve:

Again, if I’m understanding you properly, when one forgives themselves of what they do, then why the sacrament of reconciliation? Why absolution?

OneSheep:

Well, yes, that would be a reason to “be prepared” based on fear of “the end”. However, we also have much more reason to “be prepared” or to follow Christ. We have a Kingdom to build, a Kingdom built upon the values of mercy, love and forgiveness. We can all see that in our world today these principles are not prevalent. Do you agree? Christians are often criticized for being too focused on the afterlife instead of the world we live in. It is a valid criticism, is it not? Jesus was addressing life starting now, not just the afterlife. In fact, his references to the afterlife alone were very rare. Eternal life begins now, right?

steve:

If People don’t have fear of God they are fools. And let’s face it, fear of God isn’t exactly on people’s radar screens today.

A trillion years from now, in eternity, isn’t even as long as a blink in one’s life on this side of eternity. There is no yesterday today and tomorrow in eternity. It’s just now, for all eternity. No seconds, no minutes, no hours, no days months years etc. It’s just now in eternity. There is no clock keeping time in the next life. Therefore, One in this life, who doesn’t keep their eyes on the next life, is a fool. One who doesn’t fear God is a fool. One who doesn’t look at the consequences of sin today and its exclusion from heaven in the next life, is a fool.

for those in this life who fashion Jesus into an overly pleasant, overly affirming sort of fellow, in all situations, squishy on rules, rather than the uncompromising God & Lord that He is, is setting a low bar for themselves and everyone else, … opposed to the High bar Jesus set, well, I would suggest, They have created an idol for themselves.

Jesus said on the last day “many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matt. 7:22-23). How many times does He have to say that before people take Him seriously on that.

 

[OneSheep]

. why did Jesus institute the sacrament of reconciliation? Reconciliation for what and with WHOM are we reconciled?

why the sacrament of reconciliation? Why absolution?

I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of my words. What I am saying is that people do, practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation and still have not forgiven themselves. Most, of course, practice the Sacrament and are able to really feel and know His forgiveness. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is very important, for it brings Jesus into the healing process in a very explicit way. God always forgives us, and the Sacrament is there to make His forgiveness known to us in a very tangible way.

Forgiveness through understanding oneself involves a deeper reconciliation, and we were given the means to do so, in part, by Luke23:34.

 

[OneSheep]

If People don’t have fear of God they are fools. And let’s face it, fear of God isn’t exactly on people’s radar screens today.

Did I tell you about the Linn’s book Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God? While the book may present an image of God that is contrary to one’s experience in some way, it is still worth a read.

For example, Jesus asks us not to worry or to fear, so to worry about salvation or to fear God’s wrath goes against the call to avoid such enslavements, and belief in a wrathful God is hardly a means to knowing a real secure relationship.

But Steve, have you noticed how I am talking mostly about people, specifically a means of understanding people, and your own responses have been centered on the fear that people will misbehave if we have such understanding? Also, you are expressing words that are meant to use fear to get people to avoid sin. There is a place for all of these words, but I am talking about something more, an invitation by Christ to take a look within, a look that will ultimately lead to seeing the goodness of people.

To go round and round about the ramificatons of understanding why people sin is of no use, what really can bear fruit is the use of the Gift of Understanding to actually understand why people sin, and Jesus gives us the means to do so from the cross. Are you willing to try to understand people in a way that does not involve fear or blame?

For example, Judas defied Jesus and turned Him over to the authorities, which truly was sinful. Can you understand what Judas did, seeing his blindness and ignorance, without blaming him?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

. why did Jesus institute the sacrament of reconciliation? Reconciliation for what and with WHOM are we reconciled?

why the sacrament of reconciliation? Why absolution?

I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of my words. What I am saying is that people do, practice the Sacrament of Reconciliation and still have not forgiven themselves. Most, of course, practice the Sacrament and are able to really feel and know His forgiveness. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is very important, for it brings Jesus into the healing process in a very explicit way. God always forgives us, and the Sacrament is there to make His forgiveness known to us in a very tangible way.

My focus is on reality not exceptions which one might deem for them self, which may or may not be reality for them…

Regarding one’s contrition (their sorrow for sin) absent the sacrament of reconciliation, which Jesus established and instituted for good reason

Note: the conditions being identified for contrition

1452 When it (contrition) arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

1457 According to the Church’s command, “after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession. Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.

Does that even matter in your argument?

OneSheep:

Forgiveness through understanding oneself involves a deeper reconciliation, and we were given the means to do so, in part, by Luke23:34.

Re: your quote, lets put the quote into context

Lk 23:34

And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they cast lots to divide his garments.

Cutting to the chase, you’ve been arguing that hell is empty. Everyone is forgiven. Everyone is saved. No one is held responsible for anything they’ve done. No one is lost…

Right?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If People don’t have fear of God they are fools. And let’s face it, fear of God isn’t exactly on people’s radar screens today.

Did I tell you about the Linn’s book _Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God_? While the book may present an image of God that is contrary to one’s experience in some way, it is still worth a read.

For example, Jesus asks us not to worry or to fear, so to worry about salvation or to fear God’s wrath goes against the call to avoid such enslavements, and belief in a wrathful God is hardly a means to knowing a real secure relationship.

But Steve, have you noticed how I am talking mostly about people, specifically a means of understanding people, and your own responses have been centered on the fear that people will misbehave if we have such understanding? Also, you are expressing words that are meant to use fear to get people to avoid sin. There is a place for all of these words, but I am talking about something more, an invitation by Christ to take a look within, a look that will ultimately lead to seeing the goodness of people.

To go round and round about the ramificatons of understanding why people sin is of no use, what really can bear fruit is the use of the Gift of Understanding to actually understand why people sin, and Jesus gives us the means to do so from the cross. Are you willing to try to understand people in a way that does not involve fear or blame?

For example, Judas defied Jesus and turned Him over to the authorities, which truly was sinful. Can you understand what Judas did, seeing his blindness and ignorance, without blaming him?

Refer to my previous post.

As for sheep and goats, your opening point,

The goats in the example I’m thinking of were separated from the sheep. The goats were put on the left. And based on the language Jesus used in the example, and let’s not forget, the one doing all the judging is the one telling the story and giving the example, it was a horrible ending for the goats