Are you saying that when He said “them”, that he was only talking about a select portion of the crowd?
Actually, this is not stated or implied in the OP. Any person can avoid sin. This is not what you are saying, though, as you are saying that addicts cannot stop using. (I think you can see that I disagree)
When you say “we have culpability” are you meaning that we are “able to be blamed” or are you saying that “the sin is imputed to us, we did it”? I hope you can see that these are two very different statements, but both can fall under definitions of “culpability”.
I think it is pretty clear that coveting my neighbor’s goods and wife is sinful, but neither one are specifically “acts”. Living like Gollum is a sinful state. Living as an addict is a sinful state. They are not acts, but mindsets, alienated mindsets.
Emotions are “under control” to some degree. When we recognize the emotion, the power of the emotion itself becomes somewhat dissipated. Forgiveness erases resentment. And yes, practice of virtues mitigates the problems of some emotions and desires.
The Sacraments are, according to my catechesis, signs of what has occurred, is occurring at the time of the Sacrament, or will occur in the future. A person can confess without sincerity and receive absolution, but in the case I gave if forgiveness of the heart has not occurred, the Sacrament is essentially not manifested. This is not to say that it will not be manifested in the future.
Okay, well CCC 597 does not say in any way that Jesus was not one in being with the Father when He said “Forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Absolutely! The earlier they are in the addictive process, the easier it is to do. At the later stages, the craving drives the mind, emotions and actions.
This is one of the principles upon which the 12 steps are based.
I am not ruling out that insight/enlightenment can come into even the most drug saturated addicted brain. God is able to work miracles. But many times it can take months or even years for the mind and emotions to stabilize after years of disruption.
Of course addicts can stop using! Otherwise, we would have no recovering addicts!
There are no addicts that do not engage in acts harmful to themselves and others. Addiction, by definition, harms the addict and all those within the addicts circle, especially family. It is based in an alienated mindset, but it manifests itself in disordered ACTS.
This Catholic teaching about hell and Satan being thrown out of heaven must really be missing the mark.
Were you not planning to publish a book? The American Conference of Catholic Bishops really seem to need help getting squared away on this point. Perhaps, if you could provide them some catechesis, they could revise the Catechism to reflect what you have discovered?
Absolutely! The earlier they are in the addictive process, the easier it is to do. At the later stages, the craving drives the mind, emotions and actions.
This is one of the principles upon which the 12 steps are based.
I am not ruling out that insight/enlightenment can come into even the most drug saturated addicted brain. God is able to work miracles. But many times it can take months or even years for the mind and emotions to stabilize after years of disruption.
Of course addicts can stop using! Otherwise, we would have no recovering addicts!
Q. I think it is pretty clear that coveting my neighbor’s goods and wife is sinful, but neither one are specifically “acts”. Living like Gollum is a sinful state. Living as an addict is a sinful state. They are not acts, but mindsets, alienated mindsets.
This is exactly the point I am making, Vico. As long as there is still resentment, forgiveness from the heart has not been complete, there is still a lingering issue.
If the resentment involves a negative affect towards someone, then there remains a “holding against”, we hold the person’s actions or something else against the value of the person in some way.
Actually, it does not. The teaching mirrors what happened in the story of Adam and Eve, and reflect exactly what our minds do in the formation of the “shadow self” or the “false self”. During conscience formation, we “throw out” (banish) the aspects of ourselves that we very normally come to resent . For example, we banish our desires for status, dominance, having other people’s stuff, all of the “seven deadlies”, which helps us to keep our own behaviors in check. While this banishment is vital (IMO) in the development of the moral person, the trade-off is that we are a divided person, at constant battle within.
That sounds very Jungian!
Yes, it sounds very much like the dialectic Jung described between the Self and the Ego.
I love psychology, and have spent a lifetime studying it. It is a favorite subject of mine. However there are some great disconnects between what modern theories propose, and what has been revealed by God to the Church.
I agree. For example, there may be some aspects of Jung’s model that fall short when it comes to describing the psyche, but I am definitely not an expert on any particular psychologist. I do know this: all of us who read psychology find some of it ridiculous, and we label this “pop psychology”. However, one person’s “pop” may be very different from the other!
forgive = give up a debt
Q. As long as there is still resentment, forgiveness from the heart has not been complete, there is still a lingering issue.
Actually, the verse you quoted does not define forgiveness as “giving up a debt”. “Aught” can be anything, so it can very well include negative feelings toward someone. Do you agree that holding onto negative feelings against someone is not what Jesus calls us to?
Yeah that is the big question, right? Do we forgive, or do we blame? Do you agree that when we have a good conscience, we have a gut-level reaction to sin that involves an “automatic” blaming?
There is no definition there. The subject is sin. Resentment is either a temptation to sin (a feeling) or a sin (ill will).Vico:
Actually, the verse you quoted does not define forgiveness as “giving up a debt”. “Aught” can be anything, so it can very well include negative feelings toward someone. Do you agree that holding onto negative feelings against someone is not what Jesus calls us to?
DRC:
So you do have that gut-level reaction to your decision not to pray, I’m hearing. You self-condemn.
Yes, when we forgive from the heart, the debt that we perceive others owe us goes away also. If we look at Matthew 18:35:
As the priest who taught us explained, God always forgives, but if we do not forgive one another we will not experience the unconditional love and forgiveness from the Father. We suffer the uncertainly of a conditional love.
No, this cannot be applied universally. For example, when I give into to sexual sin, I know 100% what I’m doing and that it’s sinful. I simply cave to temptation.
I will admit that when I know something, I think I know everything about it. I think I know all the consequences, all the hurt I am causing. I think that I value the “temple” of me as much as I can possibly value.
Yes, there it is! “It is only enough” means “only enough to condemn”. But the focus, again, is not on blame, the focus here is on understanding. The blame comes from the conscience (a good conscience).
They did not know what they were doing at many levels. For example, do you think the people that wanted the other two crucified knew what they were doing?