Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[Benadam]

Good Morning Benadam,

Thank you, OneSheep, and good day to you.

. It is very natural for a human to lament competition from bugs or predators, and it serves the point of the story that the garden had been more idyllic. We had to have lost something, and it had to be our fault,

It’s the environment that life emerges from and so forms it’s nature. That’s the meaning of the garden. That the environment of mortal life isn’t the environment that formed our nature.
The parallel of the natural in the order within us and the natural outside of us…hmm. You know it’s the environment also that defines the bonds between persons. Soldiers are bonded by their experiences together in battle. The marital bond forms in the environment of matrimony. Human nature and the bonds between persons are sculpted by the nature of the environment that supports our existence.

We had to have lost something, and it had to be our fault, those points mirror what we see in the “loss of innocence” in our own lives and the fault part is a manifestation of eating of the tree, that blaming is part of seeing good and evil.

Yes, we lost the environment proper to immortal life. We live in one now that’s proper to life that ends in death.
What you say about blame has great value to me. Blame is not good. I notice in the stories of Genesis that the authors go out of their way to not blame. As an example, Ham saw his father’s nakedness is a cryptic way of expressing mother and son incest. A way of expressing what happened without blame. Perhaps the guiding principles of the time cultivated a desire to mask seriously disordered acts. I think Adam and Eve’s blaming and the consequences of it re Cain killing Abel, made a great impact on the generations that followed. That impact has faded to almost nothing these days.

The fossil record shows that there were not such idyllic times in on Earth. There has always been competition for resources. This observation, while it seems to conflict with the Biblical creation story, only does so if the story of A&E is taken literally instead of allegorically.

The bond that united body and soul, Adam and Eve, them and the earth, all were damaged when A+ E rejected God. That order to disorder change doesn’t submit to scientific observation without a comparison study of the body before and after. I understand that seems like a convenient way of avoiding observable facts…

Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that there is something scary in us?

Benadam:

Psychological probing is discomforting to us, I’m thinking that two eyes that can peer into our soul and see the truth of our being, might be even scarier…

continued

 

[Benadam]

What about tiger nature without ego? Do you see what I am saying? If one looks at the nature of other creatures, and sees the beauty of their desires, what drives them, the way that they react to things, one can see that we share so much of their nature, their “egos”. It’s all very automatic stuff. Human nature includes the ego, its a total package, and it’s all beautiful when reflected upon. The conscience, too, is beautiful, but it serves to condemn the parts of ourselves that drive us to hurt ourselves and others in order to help us keep our behaviors in control, cooperative with others, etc.

Here we get to the nitty gritty of nature I think. It’s important to note that conscience isn’t a law maker. It is formed properly by the Law of God and the law of God is inherent.to it. The law that God places in our heart, so to speak.
The beauty of animal life is undeniable for sure. The instincts so fitted for their environment. Animals behave just as God intends them to. imho. In us though, the formation of instincts become personality disorders like PTSD. Life threatening experiences cause extreme and unique emotions that become compartmentalized memory. They are memories that aren’t recalled with conscious effort but happen involuntarily as you know. Recalled without being called when our environment begins to simulate the environment we experienced the threat to life. .In animals it helps them survive. In humans it causes us to relive the past as the current moment, misjudge and remove ourselves from it. A body that dies needs an involuntary recall of past environments within which a threat to life was survived.Good for combat and animals. Not good for the higher faculties of reason and will.

The need to survive introduced the ego.imo. Before ego entered into A+E’s world their consciousness was centered on the ‘other’. A+E could offer a total disinterested gift of self to the other before ego. One of the consequences of a body that dies is a natural need for consciously being aware of the self before the other. I think that the change from an environment of life to an envioronment of death transformed our conscious experience and the permanent conscious presence of ‘other’ was moved and replaced with the self. The formation of ego as a mechanism to cope with the need to survive.
The tree and serpent are in the middle of the garden The serpent apparently thinks the tree it dwells in is all the trees. " you can’t eat from any of the trees?" ego makes us like the lower animals because (after our eviction) we live in an environment natural to their bodies and their natural end and not ours.

At our core is the “true self”, the self that is beneath our (good) nature. It is Love, a part of the Whole that is Love.

I can’t agree more.

 

[Benadam]

Is the “mistake” the thinking that we are not to blame ourselves for condition of life we live in?

I can’t say that. We are not blameless. But then it isn’t good to blame. The common saying " it’s your fault or my fault", is out of place as it used now. . Fault finding is an intensely private affair.

The mistake,I believe, is to think the condition of our life is the only condition there ever was and the condition natural to being fully human.

Are they added by God our Creator?

Kinda, God ordered this as a consequence of our less than good behaviour. A behavior we knew to avoid by the law God put in our conscience. But I see them as add ons because we didn’t have them until death and survival became the condition of human life.

OneSheep, thank you for walking me on this thoughtful path.

 

[Benadam]

If the conscience is what continues to inform what you see, that there are indeed good and bad parts of ourselves, then it is working! There is an internal conflict, but the benefits of the conscience far outweigh its cost.absolutely! oops to Add. conscience isn’t an informer but is informed. It isn’t a lawmaker but a guide to acting good or bad and a judge if the law that formed it is disobeyed. The law that informs it can be wrong, errant. Condemnation is from the conscience as well. I can’t comment on that.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning, and thank you for taking the time to elaborate your points!

It’s the environment that life emerges from and so forms it’s nature. That’s the meaning of the garden. That the environment of mortal life isn’t the environment that formed our nature. Human nature and the bonds between persons are sculpted by the nature of the environment that supports our existence.

When it comes to our “true selves” I agree completely, but when it comes to our drives, emotions, ego, etc., I am seeing that God created us right alongside the other mortal creatures, and we share many characteristics. The environment, being creation itself, is all part of God’s formation of us, in what I am seeing. This is what makes sense to me, but I have no reason to convince someone of it.

The most basic aspect of our good nature is to “look out for number one”, in my own self-reflection and admittance. The parts of my nature that involve disciplining myself to cooperate, such as the conscience, serve to keep the tribe functioning for the purpose of enhancing survival as a group, which is how God made us so successful.

It’s important to note that conscience isn’t a law maker. It is formed properly by the Law of God and the law of God is inherent.to it. The law that God places in our heart, so to speak.

Yes, the conscience comes from God, but it can be malformed, and it takes a lifetime to educate it.

What you say about blame has great value to me. Blame is not good.

Your saying that is possibly an example of the gut-reaction we have from the conscience. You may, for example, have a gut-level negative reaction when others blame or when you blame, which is essentially blaming for blaming. In this case, it is the conscience self-regulating.

Blame is a natural human behavior, and there are many examples of it in the Bible, but in everyday life we see the hurt it causes. Indeed, Jesus asks us not to judge one another, but He is very real about humans and their gut-level reactions so He spends a lot more time encouraging us to forgive, which is how we can deal with blame. In the mean time, though, to me what Jesus is saying is that we are not to hang onto judgment or blame of ourselves or others. I don’t think He is saying that blame itself is bad; blame is functionally good in guiding our own behaviors and guiding those of our children, etc. Apes blame, and there are some rudiments in other species.

Does a negative gut-level reaction against blame help guide you not to point your finger and be mean when your blame is triggered about some behavior? If so, blaming blame is working! Isn’t the conscience amazing?!

 

[OneSheep]

The bond that united body and soul, Adam and Eve, them and the earth, all were damaged when A+ E rejected God.

Can you see that the natural human reaction to this story is to blame Adam and Eve (humanity) for the damage? If you share in the blaming, then the story is functioning well for you. A position of humility, of a “beating down of the ego” so to speak, is one that lends itself to group cooperation. In the tribal setting, group cooperation is vital.

You see, I no longer find a purpose for me to see that humanity is damaged. What I am seeing is that we are in the process of being created, that there is no one to impute for any damage whatsoever. What I am left with are questions like “Why is creation so slow?”, but I have simply come to accept that it is slow, and I don’t know why. I rejoice it the fact that it is happening, and it is a good happening!

Psychological probing is discomforting to us, I’m thinking that two eyes that can peer into our soul and see the truth of our being, might be even scarier…

When one shines the light within, the darkness goes away. But while there is darkness, what we don’t know seems scary or bad. It is only an illusion. Fr. De Mello said “If you feel any negativity toward anyone, you are living in an illusion”. This includes the negativity we feel towards parts of ourselves, i.e. the capacity/motive to blame. To me, the illusion serves a purpose, it is part of the functioning of the conscience.

In the final analysis, there is nothing to fear, but I must qualify that. I allow myself to fear my own capacity for escape-by-use-of-drugs. I have never been an addict, but I know that if I used them once as an escape, that I could very well become one.

In us though, the formation of instincts become personality disorders like PTSD.

I am quite certain that something about PTSD itself is something that happens in the mind to protect oneself. Some aspect of PTSD is protecting people from suicide or complete dysfunction and mental breakdown, but sometimes it is not successful.

A body that dies needs an involuntary recall of past environments within which a threat to life was survived.Good for combat and animals. Not good for the higher faculties of reason and will.

A person who is diagnosed a serious ilness undergoes a great shock to the psyche. I am pretty sure that when the news is recalled over the next days or weeks, the mind is in the process of accepting and getting used to the bad news. You are right, it may not be good for the higher faculties of reason, but nature seems to work on the “net effects”. The net effect is a positive, there is something about the functioning you are referring to that helps us survive.

Fault finding is an intensely private affair.

Your conscience is allowing you to only beat yourself up.

 

[OneSheep]

The mistake,I believe, is to think the condition of our life is the only condition there ever was and the condition natural to being fully human.

All humans are “fully human”, right? It is true, though, that with spiritual growth we can come to transcend our ego/psychological nature and “dwell” as the true self, at least that is the state of freedom, where the “yoke is easy and the burden light”.

There may be a problem, though, in thinking that “my life will be better if/when”, such as, "my life will be better if/when I am more “fully human in this__________ way”. That thinking in itself puts me in a place of thinking that I am living in something “less” than the beauty of this very moment. Ironically, maybe I am saying that to be fully human involves finding the joy of the moment.

Is it a mistake to think that creation starts from chaos and evolves to something more beautiful in an orderly way? If so, what are the consequences of making such a mistake? These are not questions meant to challenge, I am interested in what you are seeing.

Kinda, God ordered this as a consequence of our less than good behaviour. A behavior we knew to avoid by the law God put in our conscience. But I see them as add ons because we didn’t have them until death and survival became the condition of human life.

But if death is a reality that has nothing to do with an imposed consequence, then all of those ordered add-ons are gifts! Actually, they are gifts no matter how I look at it!

Again, the idea that our nature is an imposed negative serves the purpose of the allegory. If your conscience is seeing our nature as a “consequence” (i.e. that capacity to blame is a net-negative) then it is working!

OneSheep, thank you for walking me on this thoughtful path.

You have a great way of explaining your perspective, Benadam, it is a traditional (and natural) approach that I honor completely.

 

[Benadam]

The environment, being creation itself, is all part of God’s formation of us, in what I am seeing. This is what makes sense to me, but I have no reason to convince someone of it. Why is it good to know?

No need to convince me of that. Im on board with that. But what do you do with the disconnect humans experience knowing our end is death? Knowing a future in which we don’t exist? It must mean death has a meaning for us that it doesn’t have for other animals.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

The environment, being creation itself, is all part of God’s formation of us, in what I am seeing. This is what makes sense to me, but I have no reason to convince someone of it. Why is it good to know?

No need to convince me of that. Im on board with that. But what do you do with the disconnect humans experience knowing our end is death? Knowing a future in which we don’t exist? It must mean death has a meaning for us that it doesn’t have for other animals.

Good Morning,

I tried, but failed, to find the place where I asked the question “why is it good to know?”. If I remember right, I think you were saying that it is good to know that we had an idyllic existence and then lost it.

The difficulty in taking a literal approach to Genesis is that idea of an idyllic garden runs right up against God’s omniscience and benevolence. Why did God choose to create a child in an idyllic garden, knowing full well he would end up quickly taking it away, banishing him from it forever? Would this not be a cruel trick to play upon one’s children? To me, His benevolence is much less compromised if creation begins from chaos and slowly forms the human, that we have not had a setback that has incurred His blame, wrath, judgment, punishment, etc.

The problem with the approach in the last sentence above is that when we suffer, we look for the cause, we want to blame something or someone! If the cause is God himself, then it is very difficult to see Him as benevolent! Instead, if the cause of human suffering is us humans, we can avert our impulse to blame God, and again, the self-blame is a good mindset for a group to be in when cooperation is needed (submissive attitudes definitely have their merits!). And after all, when the tribe needs to have God on their side, it works against the benefit of such support that God is causing suffering.

Do you agree with the above paragraph as to why it is “good to know” that we come from an idyllic beginning and lost it?

But what do you do with the disconnect humans experience knowing our end is death? Knowing a future in which we don’t exist? It must mean death has a meaning for us that it doesn’t have for other animals.

I’m not sure what you mean by “disconnect”. I’m pretty sure that death, life, love, and many other concepts and realities have a meaning for us that it doesn’t have for other animals. The “knowing a future when we don’t exist” is a untruth, correct?

Of course we naturally fear death and have anxieties about it. To me, a big part of faith is in knowing that death is not the end.

 

[Benadam]

Good Morning One Sheep!

I tried, but failed, to find the place where I asked the question “why is it good to know?”. If I remember right, I think you were saying that it is good to know that we had an idyllic existence and then lost it.

I couldn’t find it either. But I think I would say It is good to know because it would bring understanding to that ‘something missing’ question most of us have down inside us. To know our unwounded nature.

The difficulty in taking a literal approach to Genesis is that idea of an idyllic garden runs right up against God’s omniscience and benevolence.

When you say literal approach, do you mean taking it as events that really happened or, approaching it as the events described are not to be taken literally but as mythic literature that uses allegory and metaphor? I read the story as real events and real people. but described in allegory and metaphor.

God’s benevolence or omniscience aren’t opposed by the fall, if freedom is understood as the necessary component for a relationship bound by love. Suppose at this time humanity is developing from chaos with no fall.Could we say it’s cruel to bring us into earthly life just to take it away with death? To be born in a world that dies to never be certain about what comes next?. Or why didn’t God create us perfect so we can be happy in that perfection?

I’m not sure what you mean by “disconnect”. I’m pretty sure that death, life, love, and many other concepts and realities have a meaning for us that it doesn’t have for other animals. The “knowing a future when we don’t exist” is a untruth, correct?

Not an untruth in a world without religions. But what is the reason for the worlds religions if not to solve the problem of death? No death, no reason for religious faith.

The animals aren’t aware that someday they will die. There isn’t any evidence that they are conscious of that end. They are unable to imagine a future in which they don’t exist. There is no death in their world. So, no fear of death hinders them from acting as God created them. Death is the disconnect we have, in that only we of all animals are burdened with it. Death is feared because it is unnatural for the material extension of a rational soul to depart from it. The only way it wouldn’t be cruel to create a rational soul is to create it with the means to keep it’s material extension from departing. Separation of body and soul is feared because it is unnatural. It would be cruel if God created us this way.

If it is natural then there is no reason for our religion. Who needs a saviour if death is natural and the way God made us?

Of course we naturally fear death and have anxieties about it.

Do you see how fear of death is evidence that death is unnatural for humans? The animals don’t fear it because it is natural for them. If they had a rational soul then death wouldn’t be natural for them either.

 

[OneSheep]

But I think I would say It is good to know because it would bring understanding to that ‘something missing’ question most of us have down inside us. To know our unwounded nature.

And I am gathering that this is something that you yourself know that you have “down inside you”, that there is an unwounded nature!

There are some distinctions to be made, I think, that contribute to glorification of our Father. He created us, and we are beautiful, we are functionally beautiful, just as all the rest of the creatures. You mention PTSD, and that the result of a wound, for sure, but in giving Him glory we can see that PTSD is not a problem with a person’s nature, but the person’s nature doing the best it can to protect the person himself. There is a “demon” to deal with, the hurt, the injury to the person’s view of the world. For physical injury, though scar tissue can help with/is a result of/ healing, it can also be problematic. The “net result” with scarring is a positive.

Could we say it’s cruel to bring us into earthly life just to take it away with death?

Wow, that is a great question and an excellent counterpoint. I think the difference, however, is the idea that God somehow found us lacking in some way, that we did not “measure up” to a standard when He knew full well that we would not. The end of the story leaves us with a disappointed God at best, a grudging God at worst, and what parent would impose death or banishment upon their own children? However, if a person is truly plugged in to the point of the story, then he should not be using the story of A&E as a guide to knowing His benevolence. We have the Gospel to guide us in knowing His benevolence…

We can find our loving God and know His benevolence through prayer and service, in my experience. So while death may seem the ultimate contradiction, by faith we know that death itself is only a transformation, not an end. Then, there is the question of suffering, but suffering itself is part of growth.

Or why didn’t God create us perfect so we can be happy in that perfection?

If we are using “perfect” in the way that the Gospel does, a merciful perfection, I’m seeing that we have to look at it as a developmental phenomenon. We experience, we suffer, we grow. This goes back to my earlier question, why does perfection (creation) happen so slowly and painstakingly? I don’t know the answer, but I regardless of the answer I know His benevolence because of relationship, not because of answers to questions.

Is this how you know His benevolence, through relationship?

 

[OneSheep]

Death is feared because it is unnatural for the material extension of a rational soul to depart from it. The only way it wouldn’t be cruel to create a rational soul is to create it with the means to keep it’s material extension from departing. Separation of body and soul is feared because it is unnatural. It would be cruel if God created us this way.

Yes, and you and I both know that God did not create us that way.

If it is natural then there is no reason for our religion. Who needs a saviour if death is natural and the way God made us?

In my observation we need a redeemer because we fear death, because we are enslaved by our natural drives and emotions, and because we come to believe that God Himself carries a grudge against us. The natural conscience tells us that people who violate the rules “owe us a debt”, and we project the same upon God. If the person is in the mindset/spirituality that we truly do owe God something, then the Gospel stands as a story of a debt-payment. This is the satisfaction of the conscience.

If, instead, the individual has come to see the “true self” within, that beneath all is Love, then such a spirituality transcends the conscience itself, and the “debt” simply disappears. For a person to come to this transcending, he has to follow Christ either in practice or by coincidental experience, and following the path shown by Jesus has in itself led to a salvation. The person is now free from the trappings of his God-given nature. Fear of death itself is one of the trappings of our God-given nature, and we can give thanks that God sent and resurrected His son, in part, to address such fear.

IOW, we all need a savior, even though death is natural, because natural or not, death is scary.

Do you see how fear of death is evidence that death is unnatural for humans?

I see how fear of death would definitely be seen as evidence that death is unnatural, especially given that God is supposed to be beneficent.

OTOH the observer of life sees that death itself is part of life. Our natural world is a constant motion of death and destruction giving rise to something new. Perhaps, to some degree, seeing death as “unnatural” is a side-effect of the human being less exposed to the natural world. Those more in tune with death in the natural world might be more accepting of its “naturalness” for humans also.

 

[Benadam]

And I am gathering that this is something that you yourself know that you have “down inside you”, that there is an unwounded nature!

Not even in my most gnostic moments.

He created us, and we are beautiful, we are functionally beautiful, just as all the rest of the creatures.

Yes beauty and function beyond imagining! In a way I agree it’s not a problem with our nature. I think the problem is death. If we don’t see the disconnect between human nature and death then we are lead to solutions that incorporate it into the meaning of our being. The cyclic solutions for death such as the transmigration of souls offered by Buddha and Hinduism

I think the difference, however, is the idea that God somehow found us lacking in some way, that we did not “measure up” to a standard when He knew full well that we would not.

I can see that as a problem if we don’t understand that part of our created beauty and function is to be able to decide for ourselves what is good and be wrong. That our beauty and function are of a higher order than the order of the current condition we our found in.

If, instead, the individual has come to see the “true self” within, that beneath all is Love, then such a spirituality transcends the conscience itself, and the “debt” simply disappears. For a person to come to this transcending, he has to follow Christ either in practice or by coincidental experience, and following the path shown by Jesus has in itself led to a salvation. The person is now free from the trappings of his God-given nature. Fear of death itself is one of the trappings of our God-given nature, and we can give thanks that God sent and resurrected His son, in part, to address such fear.

I’m a little confused by what you wrote here. When we follow Christ we find our true self within and we find that there is no debt owed but in our true self we find love.

The person is now free from the trappings of his God-given nature. Fear of death itself is one of the trappings of our God-given nature, and we can give thanks that God sent and resurrected His son, in part, to address such fear.

I might not like that God created me with built in traps. Are the trappings in me or the things external to me? Either way it seems to indicate disharmony between the two.

Those more in tune with death in the natural world might be more accepting of its “naturalness” for humans also.

OneSheep, I just can’t reconcile that with God becoming human to conquer death. That it is cast out as one of His enemies.

 

[OneSheep]

I couldn’t find it either. But I think I would say It is good to know because it would bring understanding to that ‘something missing’ question most of us have down inside us. To know our unwounded nature.

And I am gathering that this is something that you yourself know that you have “down inside you”, that there is an unwounded nature!

Not even in my most gnostic moments.

Do you understand my confusion?

If we don’t see the disconnect between human nature and death then we are lead to solutions that incorporate it into the meaning of our being.

True, Jesus and St. Paul both said something about dying, like the grain of wheat, and “dying to ourselves”. Frankly, death is much more real to me lately, I am incorporating its likelihood of sooner-than-later. Somehow, in incorporating this outlook, I have a new life.

I can see that as a problem if we don’t understand that part of our created beauty and function is to be able to decide for ourselves what is good and be wrong.

So you are observing that people know what they are doing when they sin?

I’m a little confused by what you wrote here. When we follow Christ we find our true self within and we find that there is no debt owed but in our true self we find love.

Are you saying that there is no debt owed because Jesus paid the debt? If so, the crucifixion, the incarnation, was the debt-payment, which was a satisfaction for the common conscience. If you are saying that there was never debt, and this is what you have found in the “true self”, this is what I am also gleaning from the theology of Pope Benedict.

I might not like that God created me with built in traps. Are the trappings in me or the things external to me? Either way it seems to indicate disharmony between the two.

Yeah, people do naturally resent their own capacity for addiction, but even this capacity has its usefulness. We have to keep in mind that over the millenia God has given us a conscience and religion itself as a means of dealing with the trappings when they have a net-negative effect. For example, when we are motivated to acquire more wealth than we need, this contributes to our survival. However, a person obsessed with such accumulation is a slave, his is “trapped”. There is nothing but “good intent” in both (God) creating the drive that can entrap us, and in the person choosing the trap.

But yes, people resent the traps, and it creates a “disharmony” within the human. It works though, as part of the function of the human conscience.

 

[Benadam]

So you are observing that people know what they are doing when they sin?

I want to share a personal experience related to this topic.

When I was around eight years old my father gave me a BB gun. I got bored with the paper target and moved on to cans and other objects. The real meaning of the gun for me was the hunt. I decided I wanted to shoot a bird. That would be as close to a hunt as I could get short of stalking someone’s cat. So, I came across a bird perched on a electric wire in the back yard. On some level I knew it was wrong to kill the bird just for the pleasure of killing. In my mind since the wrongness of it was so weakly sensed it must be just a little wrong. I aimed at the bird I briefly thought " you got it , you just gotta pull the trigger" and I did. I heard the thump of the BB and the puff of a few feathers, the bird stretched out it’s wings for a split second and began to tumble to the ground. I quickly felt it wasn’t as satisfying as I expected. As the bird tumbled I felt just slightly disturbed. Then the bird hit the ground as if sitting in a chair. It stretched it’s head up high into the air and sceetched with it’s beak open looking back and forth. At that instant intense shame hit me like a huge tidal wave. The shame hunched my body over and I scurried over to a bush and hid behind it. There was no one around. I didn’t decide or think about it. It was an automatic response to the shame. The instant it was felt was the instant it hunched me over and I scurried with a hunched back to a bush. I stayed there for quite awhile feeling the waves of shame subside and then very odd. Like the world had changed. I finally started feeling normal enough to go inside the house and sit and I guess absorb what happened.

Now I think it was my conscience, or the Holy Spirit inside me letting me know how it would feel if He did that or most probably in different ways both.

 

[OneSheep]

Now I think it was my conscience, or the Holy Spirit inside me letting me know how it would feel if He did that or most probably in different ways both.

Yes, I do believe that was your conscience, thanks for sharing the story. For the modern hunting cultures that still persist today, they very ordinarily honor the “spirit” of the animal before or after they kill it for food.

The conscience undergoes formation, and perhaps that was a formative moment for you. Did you know more after you killed the bird, or before? After, correct? You had a wisdom of experience.

 

[Benadam]

Yes, I do believe that was your conscience, thanks for sharing the story. For the modern hunting cultures that still persist today, they very ordinarily honor the “spirit” of the animal before or after they kill it for food.

Thanks OneSheep, this is the first time I ever shared it. I don’t see it as pertaining to primordial hunting spirituality though. The rituals you mention aren’t a response to shame in my opinion. They are a response to a need for food. The hunters appease the spirits of nature with gratitude for a successful hunt.

The conscience undergoes formation, and perhaps that was a formative moment for you. Did you know more after you killed the bird, or before? After, correct? You had a wisdom of experience.

I did have a wisdom experience. But if it came from the conscience why was the law felt so weakly yet deliver such powerful judgement? Where does debilitating shame like that come from?

 

[OneSheep]

Thanks OneSheep, this is the first time I ever shared it. I don’t see it as pertaining to primordial hunting spirituality though. The rituals you mention aren’t a response to shame in my opinion. They are a response to a need for food. The hunters appease the spirits of nature with gratitude for a successful hunt.

When seen in action, it is an apology to the spirit of the animal killed. The conscience is innate, right?

I did have a wisdom experience. But if it came from the conscience why was the law felt so weakly yet deliver such powerful judgement? Where does debilitating shame like that come from?

From the conscience, of course, but conscience development is a life-long endeavor, there is an awareness that involves connecting with what is within.

So do you see what I am saying? As we grow and develop, we learn more about what is relevant to sin, we suffer and learn. In all cases, if a person knew more (enough) about what was relevant to the sin, He would not sin. If the crowd knew that Jesus was truly the Son of God, then they would not have crucified Him. If they had understood in a different way what they deemed “blasphemous”, then they would not have condemned Him. If he had not somewhat challenged the authority of the pharisees, then they would not have been blinded by their resentment, blind to Jesus’ human dignity.