Does anyone here really believe that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

[Prince_Hal]

If so, ARE YOU SERIOUS!

Okay, now that my initial shock has subsided, please tell me why you believe the Pope is the AntiChrist?

Is there any historical or Biblical evidence or any quotes from the Early Church Christians to back up your belief that the Pope is the AntiChrist?

If you were shown evidence, including historical, Biblical and quotes from the Early Church Christians which clearly proves that the Pope is NOT the AntiChrist, would you be will to study it with an open mind?

Is there anything that could change your mind on your belief?

(Please no bashing anyone on this forum. I would like to see an honest exchange of reasons for belief.)

As a mormon missionary 22 years ago (wow, has it been that long !!) we would often use the story that the Popes crown contained the number “666” and then reference it to the scripture in Revelations about the number of the beast.

This tactic was taught to me by my missionary trainer and it was very prevalent in the mission field at that time. No-one attempted to stop the practice.

But to be fair I have never heard it preached elsewhere in mormondom.

I have no evidence to hand, but mormon apostle Bruce R McConkie was no lover of the Catholic faith and said some interesting things about the Catholic church. I believe that Lighthouse Ministries might have some clips from his 1966 version of Mormon Doctrine.

At a personal level, a mormon high priest in the LDS Ward that I attend, gave me a real earful on Sunday against the “abominations” that are the Catholic creeds. So not much love lost in some circles. Afterall, if the Catholics are correct, then the mormons are wrong, so some (not all) resort to attempting to beat down the opposition.

God bless,
Hal.

 

[reteeks21]

Wes144:

You’re way out in left field with your statements, in fact, you may not even be in the ball park. You tell us to do our home work, I think that you should recheck yours. Yes, we may have had some black popes, we admit that, but never has the CC ( magisterium )
ever gone against, or changed, any of the teachings of Christ. Yes, the CC has defined them in language suited to the times so that the faithful may better understand them.
But never have they been changed, and it cannot be proven otherwise.

The teachings of the CC are from both scripture and Divine Tradition as handed down from the Apostles.Everything within the CC has been instituted by Christ. To try to prove otherwise is an exercise in futility. Many have tried, even those that have vehently opposed the CC. All failed. They realized their error and became Catholics ( eg: Dr. Scott
Hahn, Marcus Grodi, Emile Zoli, etc. ). Please rethink you remarks and check first before
you comment. Meanwhile, God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Unfortunately some people just have their mind made up and they stick to it, even if it means attacking other Christians!

 

[dianaiad]

A name or title or company that you can show as 666 in Roman numerals is not enough. They must fit all of the criteria. The false church sits on the 7 hills of Rome, persecutes the saints for hundreds of years and “thinks to change times and laws” Daniel 7:25 Only the Papacy fits all of the criteria to be the beast power of Revelation 13.

Don’t write it off so quickly, do your own homework and ask God to guide you. God Bless.

I didn’t, I did, I have…and frankly, m’friend, it’s Snopes time for this sort of thing.

 

[dianaiad]

As a mormon missionary 22 years ago (wow, has it been that long !!) we would often use the story that the Popes crown contained the number “666” and then reference it to the scripture in Revelations about the number of the beast.

Please excuse me, but I don’t believe that. I was a missionary, too, remember? This ‘666’ stuff is assinine. I never used it. I don’t know anybody who did. I know for a fact that if our mission president ever found out that any of us did use it, the bovine effluvium would have hit the rapidly rotating blades.

This tactic was taught to me by my missionary trainer and it was very prevalent in the mission field at that time. No-one attempted to stop the practice.

But to be fair I have never heard it preached elsewhere in mormondom.

Well thank you for that, at least.

I have no evidence to hand, but mormon apostle Bruce R McConkie was no lover of the Catholic faith and said some interesting things about the Catholic church. I believe that Lighthouse Ministries might have some clips from his 1966 version of Mormon Doctrine.

Oh, now there’s a credible source…Gee, how about I send everybody to CARM for information about Catholicism?

At a personal level, a mormon high priest in the LDS Ward that I attend, gave me a real earful on Sunday against the “abominations” that are the Catholic creeds. So not much love lost in some circles. Afterall, if the Catholics are correct, then the mormons are wrong, so some (not all) resort to attempting to beat down the opposition.

God bless,
Hal.

Hal…I am disappointed. As far as I can tell, the only Mormon in this thread is me—and I have come down rather sharply against the idea that the Pope is the anti-Christ. In fact, I"ve been rather clear about my opinion of all this 666 stupidity, and you have just ‘changed the channel’ from this…person…who is being incredibly anti-Catholic, to attacking Mormonism?

C’mon, sir. Not everything is about the Mormons.

Sometimes, (as in this case) we actually agree with you.

 

[jpaul1953]

The “secret rapture” was created to be a face-saving device for the Roman Catholic Church.

Jesuit scholar Francisco Ribera foisted the idea of a “Secret Rapture” on the “Protestants” by proclaiming that the Pope couldn’t be the anti-Christ because he has not yet come. He claimed there was an unknown gap of time between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27.
Alcasar was the Jesuit that came up with the idea of Antiochus Epiphanes being the anti-Christ which also was to lead people’s thoughts away from the Protestants view.
J.N. Darby of the Plymouth Brethren was the first “Protestant” to swallow Ribera’s “Secret Rapture”. He passed it on to many others including Scofield which included the heretical doctrine in his Scofield Reference Bible.

FABER, GEORGE S.
A Dissertation on the Prophecies, That Have Been Fulfilled, Are Now Fulfilling, or Will Hereafter Be Fulfilled Relative to the Great Period of 1260 Years; The Papal and Mohammedan Apostacies; The Tyrannical Reign of Antichrist, or the Infidel Power; and the Restoration of the Jews (2 volumes, 1811)
Understanding the Reformation position on eschatology, as it is set forth in this work, gives us great insight into why the Romanists (i.e. the Jesuits in particular) were so intent on planting both Preterism (Alcasar, c. 1615) and Futurism (Ribera, c. 1585) among the Protestants.

After creating the false dispensational doctrine of the “Secret Rapture” the Roman church now says it is a false doctrine-listen to the Mother Church!

Hey Wes,

I’ve never heard what you are speaking of, but Darby picked up on the little girl’s dream by all accounts I’ve read. I’m not saying Darby didn’t believe what he taught but he failed to sell the idea to the Brits. He later left with a very detailed account of Prophecies being fulfilled and the Rapture concept and left for the Americas.

That is where his message found an ear. I don’t know where you got your info. So I stay committed to what I’ve read as you can stay committed to what you’ve read. But just like others of your feel, the Catholic Church seems to be behind everything that is wrong.

I no longer listen to anti-Catholic rhetoric. I’ve had my fill over the years so please pardon my disbelief in your account of the “Secret Rapture”.

Take care and may God bless you.

jpaul1953

 

[Patrick_Cox]

“…the bovine effluvium would have hit the rapidly rotating blades.”

.

Just wanted to say - really enjoyed your phraseology here!! Never heard this version in my part of the world! Hope you don’t mind if I “borrow” it from time to time…?

God bless

Patrick

 

[OHCAC]

The “secret rapture” was created to be a face-saving device for the Roman Catholic Church…After creating the false dispensational doctrine of the “Secret Rapture” the Roman church now says it is a false doctrine-listen to the Mother Church!

Hi Wes144. The secret rapture is a new one on me so I will look into it but the rapture prophesy, end times, 7 years of tribulation, Pope is the anti-Christ, etc. is not at all new to me - I know it well. Since you’re on a Catholic website I’d encourage you to learn more about the Catholic perspective on the rapture and end times. Not that you’ll agree with it but at least you’ll know something about it. A great source to start is from David Currie - he was raised fundamentalist/evangelical, his parents taught at Moody, he went to Trinity in Chicago, etc and he knows the end times prophesies very well.

You can hear him discussing this information on Catholic Answers radio in two parts:

Part 1 - catholic.com/audio/2000a/mp3/CA000810.mp3
Part 2 - catholic.com/audio/2000a/mp3/CA001130.mp3

He’s also done a CD series on the topic that gets more in depth than what you’ll hear on the radio broadcasts - you can find that here - saintjoe.com/prodinfo.asp?number=7603

Hope that help!

 

[dianaiad]

Just wanted to say - really enjoyed your phraseology here!! Never heard this version in my part of the world! Hope you don’t mind if I “borrow” it from time to time…?

God bless

Patrick

Oh, be my guest! It ain’t Oscar Wilde, but hey…nice to know I have contributed to linguistic style somehow.

 

[Patrick_Cox]

Oh, be my guest! It ain’t Oscar Wilde, but hey…nice to know I have contributed to linguistic style somehow.

Thank you kindly!

Have a great day!

Patrick

 

[Ismael]

During the Reformation, Martin Luther noted that “Benediktos” added up to 666
in Greek gematria, and he thought it might refer to a Pope named Benedict or to
Benedictine monks.

Β ε ν ε δ ι κ τ ο σς TOTAL
2 5 50 5 4 10 20 300 70 200 666

This was copied from wikipedia.

Number of the Beast

Yes… for Luther the pope was the anti-Christ… and so for many reformers (I wonder why… they were smart at making propaganda).

Some problems with the Benediktos-666 theory:

1- Benedict comes from the roman Benedictus, which means ‘blessed’. In greek this would “eulogeitos” which does NOT add up to 666.

2- Some claim ‘John heard the name of the Beast - Benediktos’… the problem here is that the name is pronounced BenedictUs…so instead of the omicron it should be an upsilon, if John would have added up the letter…

3- Are we sure here it refers to adding up letters? Come on! There are many benedicts in the world, thousands upon thousands in the past and in the present… are they all the beast?
If I tell someone he’s blesses do I make him the beast?

I think this is just paranoia

Also there are LOTS of names that can add up to 666… perhaps even your own (so are you the beast? )

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Like the Fiber One commercials: delicious yes! cardboard, no!

I’d say, do I think the pope is the anti-christ?

Wrong, yes! Anti-christ, no!

 

[blazerdave]

Also there are LOTS of names that can add up to 666… perhaps even your own (so are you the beast? )

I’m a beast from three-point land, and my friend is a beast in the paint. We can’t BOTH be the beast…or can we?

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Ismael]

Anti means against or in place of. Vicar means in place of. Vicar of Christ = Vicariously Deity.

The Title on the Pope’s triple crown is Vicarious Fili Dei. I heard an announcer proclaim on EWTN “Isn’t it wonderful that we have a sweet Christ on the earth in John Paul II!”

No it is not. The title “Vicarious Fili Dei” was used only ONCE (in the Donation of Costantine) and referred NOT to the Pope but to St. Peter the Apostle himself…

Also Vicar does not mean exactly ‘to replace someone’ but to hold someone’s position until his return.
The Pope does NOT claim to be Christ or to take Christ place in the Church.

By the way, Vicarious Fili Dei in Roman numerals and 2 other numeral series comes to 666!

So you are saying the apostle Peter was the antichrist, since he was so-reffered in the Donation of Costantine).

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Another point and worthy of examination is the Papacy claims that proof of their divine authority comes from being able to change God’s Commandments without any authority from Heaven. That’s why there are protestants; those that protest against the infallibility of a man that does not speak according to the Law and the Testimony because there is no light in him. Isaiah 8:20

That is the tipical prostestant dribble. One might make the same very accusations about the reformers and the protestants.

Not thinking maybe your problem. The other one is testing what people say by the Word of God that liveth and abideth forever. 1Peter 1:18-25

There are many millions of Protestants that are in churches founded by reformers like Martin Luther, John Wesley, John Calvin, John Huss, Zwingli, and many others that all taught the Pope was an anti-christ and the Beast power of Revelation 13 was the Roman Catholic Church. Do your own homework and ask the real Vicar of Christ to guide you into all truth=the Holy Spirit! John 16:13

You know what those reformers did?

One word: TERRORISM

The SCARED people telling them (by adding up convenient nimbers) that the Pope was the anti-Christ.

That is NOT very Christian at all!

They saw in the Pope an enemy… I can understand that… but what does Jesus asks us to do about enemies?

 

[Newbie2]

To anyone who thinks the Pope is the Anti-Christ, which pope? Is it always the current pope? If so, the world has sure had a heck of a lot of anti-christs.

I do believe the Lutherans still use a modern version of the Book of Concord though, don’t they?

Just to explain to help you better understand this.

There have been two senses in which I have heard the Pope connected to AntiChrist.

The first is in the sense of 2 Thess. Chaper 2 where in the end times the pope is the antichrist of the end times who leads the world against Christ.

This is a highly speculative perspective to say the least. The only support I have read is stuff like the seven hills in Revelation and Rome has seven hills. In other words support that doesn’t prove a blessed thing.

The other sense is that the Pope is an AntiChrist is in the 1 John sense, or more specifically that the papacy is an AntiChrist office.

.

It seems that the Missouri Synod Lutheran Church teaches (from their website):

The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod’s Theological Commission:

The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ’s Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.

However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic “Anti-Christ” (Dan. 7:8,11,20-21,24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions’ identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person’s heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.

 

[blazerdave]

The only Benedict beast is Toufik Benedictus Hinn.

 

[Ismael]

Also, if the Pope is theBeast and the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon…

… it means that Jesus did a pretty poor job and his apostles failed miserably.

So all the words of Jesus ‘I am with you each day of your life’ (Matthew 28:20) etc… would be false.

A Christian that lables the CC as such basically denies Jesus indirectly.

1- The Catholic Church was the dominant Church until the XI century (and openly from the IV century, after Costantine made Christianity legal).
SURE there were heretic sects… but these had creeds that would not find any place in protestantism.

2- Then we have also the Orthodox from the XI century on with the greast scism. But the Orthodox believe in many things Catholics also believe (and have some core differences with protestants anyway).

So… the beast dominated from… what? the first century until the XVI century?

Another problem: the canon of the bible was put together by Catholics at the beginning of the V century… so… is the bible the book of the beast?

---

I can understand why Luther and Calvin wanted to picture the Church as the Beast, either because they begrudge it or because it was an easy way to recruit followers… but if you think about it logically… it makes no sense at all to think that the Church or the Pope are the Beast.