Does anyone here, that believes in God, actually think that God accepts gay marriage?

[PRmerger]

I struggle to accept a God who doesn’t accept gay marriage.

“When I submit only when I agree, the one to whom I submit is me”…and not God.

 

[CaliLobo]

josh987654321:

Okay.

5 + 5 = 22

Well, that would lead to confusion because the world depends on mathematics based on the decimal system to survive. However, we can have a world where 4 + 4 = 10, if we use a base 8 system instead of base 10. We just agree not to.

How does it throw a spanner in the works? there is not one person who does not suffer from some kind of immoral desire, does the morality of the act change simply because of how much we desire it? should we all recklessly give into our every desire, throw our hands up in the air and say “If God didn’t want me to do this than he wouldn’t have given me the desire to do it.”

That’s a great question. Part of the reason why I left the Christian faith is because of it. Why would God give me such strong sexual feelings, and then forbid me to use them outside of this system called marriage? Especially considering that monogamy is not evolutionarily advantageous to humans.

I have realized that sexual freedom is more important to me than following the Magisterium. That’s why I’m not Catholic, or even Christian anymore…

So is any unions someone at any whim or fancy wishes to call a marriage a valid claim? wouldn’t a secular government be required to legalise every union someone wished to call a marriage at any whim or fancy? otherwise it’s no longer “accommodating everyone” is it? and once civil marriage can become anything, pretty soon it becomes nothing.

It already has lost relevance thanks to economic trends. There is no economic advantage to marriage anymore. But why the big fuss? It’s just part of our changing world…

What’s wrong with cohabitation in itself? It’s only wrong because the church says so…

By the way, wasn’t it you that said earlier in this thread that you are okay with gay couples getting the same civic benefits? So then, why do you still oppose calling gay unions marriages?

So you would be up for Darwins theory of “Survival of the fittest?”

Thanks to Western cultural advances, we have decided that social safety nets that protect the weak are better than mere survival of the fittest, though the latter is more efficient governance.

Ironically, social safety nets are championed by secular liberals. What has the Catholic Church done? All it has done is oppress Europe and Latin America in the name of “knowing the fullness of the truth”…

I think you got alot of good responses in that thread, have you read it?

Yes. But those responses are wrong.

 

[CaliLobo]

Prodigal_Son:

These things [about good governance] are true because you believe them to be true, apparently.

Is there an alternate interpretation of the facts? Is it not true that those countries that have accepted gay marriage rights have higher standards of living, in general? Higher economic and educational indicators?

Deana83:

Very well said. Why are we, as a society, so hung up on what everyone else is doing? I’m married and sometimes it’s a real struggle; I don’t have the time or the energy to worry about whether or not God approves of someone’s gay marriage. Based on what scripture states the answer would be “no” he wouldn’t approve, but he also doesn’t approve of divorce, premarital sex, artificial birth control. adultery, and other things.

Yes, very well said Deana83! I keep asking on CAF, if Catholics wish to ban gay marriage (and abortion) politically, then why don’t Catholics call for bans on divorce, porn, and prostitution? The logical inconsistency escapes me.

Will Catholics stand up and admit that evangelism is more important than politics?

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Francis is calling for changes in the Catholic Church, because he realizes that ideology-based politics are harmful to the Catholic Church?

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Francis wishes to distance himself from ideology-based politics?

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church are different from the USCCB, and that the USCCB misrepresents Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

Well, that would lead to confusion because the world depends on mathematics based on the decimal system to survive. However, we can have a world where 4 + 4 = 10, if we use a base 8 system instead of base 10. We just agree not to.

Try that with the bank sometime when you give them 4 dollars, and another 4 dollars, and then expect 10 dollars back.

What we “agree to” is beside the point. You don’t get to decide to change the rules of math, anymore than you get to decide to change the rules of marriage.

 

[PRmerger]

Why would God give me such strong sexual feelings, and then forbid me to use them outside of this system called marriage? Especially considering that monogamy is not evolutionarily advantageous to humans.

Well, that’s just another example of a person who wants to create a god after the Almighty Self rather than discerning who God really is.

And by your reasoning, we could say, “Why would God give humans such strong feelings of hate, and then forbid us to hate?” (says the Westboro Baptist Church).

Or, “Why would God give humans such strong sexual feelings, and then forbid me to use them with a 10 yr old?” (says the pedophile).

Or, “Why would God give me such a strong desire to smoke crack, and then forbid me to use it?” (says the drug addict).

 

[CaliLobo]

PRMerger:

Were you under the misapprehension that Catholicism professes that everything we believe has to be found in a Bible verse?

And no honest Protestant would say the same either. However, what then, is the alternative? To follow Tradition, which is based on yesterday’s dogma and not today’s scientific knowledge? Tradition, which is not relevant to modern culture?

Or to follow the Magisterium, which is guilty of crimes against humanity, such as oppressing Europe, oppressing Latin America, murdering nonbelievers in the Inquisition, oppressing women by restricting reproductive rights, and committing sex crimes and harboring those criminals?

I hope you see the irony between #3 and #4. If there is no absolute standard of morality, then you cannot say, in #4, that “it is wrong”.

Those 2 points are contradictory.

I never meant “morally” wrong in #4. There is a distinction.

We aren’t talking about “these things” “all the time”. Just some of the time.

It is clear that Francis is attempting to transform the Church into one that is more relevant to modern society. The actions of Francis–his outreach to gays and the homeless, and his ascetic lifestyle, and his bureaucratic changes, and especially his public words–show that he wants to win the hearts of today’s people

That would be as ridiculous as saying, “We need to change the fact that immunizations help our society because so many people don’t immunize their children!”

No. There is a distinction. Immunizations help people. Yesterday’s dogma does NOT help people.

 

[PRmerger]

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Francis is calling for changes in the Catholic Church, because he realizes that ideology-based politics are harmful to the Catholic Church?

Sure. Change in the Catholic Church that allows us to live the gospel more acutely is always warranted.

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Francis wishes to distance himself from ideology-based politics?

I don’t know what this means.

Will Catholics stand up and admit that Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church are different from the USCCB, and that the USCCB misrepresents Jesus?

Examples of the USCCB misrepresenting Jesus, please!

 

[josh987654321]

Well, that would lead to confusion because the world depends on mathematics based on the decimal system to survive. However, we can have a world where 4 + 4 = 10, if we use a base 8 system instead of base 10. We just agree not to.

“mathematics based on the decimal system”

I hate to break this to you, but you will never get a world where 4 + 4 = 10, the best you can do is get people to pretend as if it does. lol

Try that with the bank sometime when you give them 4 dollars, and another 4 dollars, and then expect 10 dollars back.

x2. lol

 

[PRmerger]

What has the Catholic Church done? All it has done is oppress Europe and Latin America in the name of “knowing the fullness of the truth”…

That, Cali, is just ga-ga, la-la nonsense.

The Catholic Church in Europe and Latin America has always been a champion of the poor, and a voice for change and a means for the sanctification of European and Latin American society.

 

[PRmerger]

To follow Tradition, which is based on yesterday’s dogma and not today’s scientific knowledge? Tradition, which is not relevant to modern culture?

There is nothing in Tradition which contradicts scientific knowledge.

Or to follow the Magisterium, which is guilty of crimes against humanity, such as oppressing Europe, oppressing Latin America, murdering nonbelievers in the Inquisition, oppressing women by restricting reproductive rights, and committing sex crimes and harboring those criminals?

You seem to be unable to separate those who don’t follow the teachings of the Church with the actual teachings of the Church.

There is a distinction between heteropraxy and orthodoxy, Cali.

I wouldn’t denigrate democracy by citing examples of people who have been dictators.

 

[PRmerger]

I keep asking on CAF, if Catholics wish to ban gay marriage (and abortion) politically, then why don’t Catholics call for bans on divorce, porn, and prostitution? The logical inconsistency escapes me.

Do you mean divorce and re-marriage, Cali?

If so, then Catholics have indeed called for bans on all of the above. In fact, no Catholic who has been divorced can re-marry in a Catholic Church. They have to go elsewhere to do that.

 

[PRmerger]

It is clear that Francis is attempting to transform the Church into one that is more relevant to modern society. The actions of Francis–his outreach to gays and the homeless, and his ascetic lifestyle, and his bureaucratic changes, and especially his public words–show that he wants to win the hearts of today’s people

Amen! Would that you keep reading Pope Francis! Follow him on Twitter! Read his encyclicals!

:clapping: :extrahappy:

No. There is a distinction. Immunizations help people. Yesterday’s dogma does NOT help people.

That’s begging the question, Cali.

 

[CaliLobo]

Good point David, at the end of the day God is not limited by our interpretation of His word. He will probably look at the heart of man and judge. Jesus did this when he was on earth, he forgave the adulterous woman, even those that put him to death - without them asking for forgiveness!
I am not implying that we should not discuss it, but we should not get too caught up in these debates, we need to be charitable in our actions that is supported by our love.
I believe this is what the message of our Pope is.

Amen. God is much bigger than our feeble understanding. Too often in our history, people have claimed to “know the fullness of the truth” and used their claims to oppress others. There is nothing that says that the Magisterium’s interpretation is any better than any individual’s.

Rau:

Why is it that ‘same sex intimacy’ draws on the sexual faculty always and forever in a way which can never deliver on its intrinsic potential, despite the perfect health of the participants? I find it stunning that this can be rationalised away.

What is the “intrinsic potential”?

EasterJoy:

You say gay relationships have the same dynamic as straight ones. OK…what does the sexual relationship have to do with it? Why should adults with a sexual relationship have some advantage when it comes to owning property together, survivorship, adopting children, and the like over adults who live together but don’t have sex?

You’re right! It doesn’t have to be based on sexual intimacy. In Sweden, ANY two adults can sign up for the benefits of civil union.

Rau:

To respond:

1. “Normal” and “natural” are words often understood in light of one’s own preconceived notions. But I agree that a small percentage of people experience SSA and the reason is unknown. There is little evidence (though not none) that it can be eliminated or that opposite sex attraction can be “developed”.
2. The Bible rails against homosexual relations, and these are intrinsic to the gay lobby’s view of what gay marriage entails. I don’t so much seek to “deny” gay persons marriage, as to assert they simply lack eligibility for it. Please don’t throw words like “hate” around too readily. No-one here has expressed “hate” for any gay person - as the courteous and respectful nature of this conversation attests. The “gay community” claims to experience “hate” - and there are instances of this which are deplorable. But do not for a second suggest that is the general attitude of those who, in good faith, hold a view different to yours on the subject of gay marriage.
3. No - this is wrong. The standards of morality are absolute. The degree of culpability is different for every individual. Only God can assess that. Marriage has characteristics which are fixed and unique to it. Unions of a different kind should be named differently, and may find wide support.
4. I wonder - what do you want Marriage to be, and why? And if there is no absolute standard of morality, how is it that you can declare something “wrong”?
5. I don’t know the situation of the 2 churches you mention.
6. Does not seem relevant to the positions I’ve argued.
7. See 2.
8. Stubbornness? Is it always “stubborn” to maintain a belief - or only in the eyes of one who has a different view? “Yesterday’s dogma” - what is that? “Science”? How does this feature in this debate?

1. You admit the cause is unknown and it might not be removable. Could it be that SSM is natural, and it was Christians that wrongly advocated for SSM to be a disease?
2. But the term “civil union” is a separate legal term with a separate definition, that requires litigation in the highest courts to define what it is, and that takes generations! Calling gay unions “marriage” is the only way to ensure that gay couples get the same civic benefits as straight ones. This is something that some of you have agreed that we should support!!
3. How do we know that there is an absolute standard of morality? What’s wrong for you is not wrong for me.
4. I’ve already explained this in my previous posts.
5. Ask Catholics who have converted to Evangelical Protestantism. Visit an Evangelical church sometime. Be blown away by the zeal and the energy, the dynamic sermons, and the strong community.
6. It is very relevant. Catholics are too caught up in the political issue. The church, in general, should stay away from politics much like Jesus did. Besides, why does the Church need the support of a secular government? If everyone really tithed 10% of their income to the Church, the Church could singlehandedly have the power to cure hunger and homelessness, provide free Catholic education in line with its values (we see this in Wichita, Kansas), and perform the rest of Jesus’ mission, without the need to worry about secularist forces!
7. So what Bible verse is on point regarding this issue?
8. Science has shown that SSM is natural in some of the population. Therefore it defeats yesterday’s dogma that SSM is a disease, and that it is evil and must be politically defeated. Therefore, to continue to support gay marriage bans, while thinking that SSM is sinful and evil, despite what we know scientifically today, is nothing less than hate.

 

[PRmerger]

Immunizations help people. Yesterday’s dogma does NOT help people.

You do know, Cali, that immunizations are based on “yesterday’s dogma”, right?

Yesterday’s germ theory is what led to the development of immunizations.

 

[CaliLobo]

PRMerger:

Examples of the USCCB misrepresenting Jesus, please!

Jesus never advocated bans on abortion and gay marriage. The Bible has no verses on point. Therefore, to say that Jesus would’ve supported bans on these things is to misrepresent him.

The Catholic Church in Europe and Latin America has always been a champion of the poor, and a voice for change and a means for the sanctification of European and Latin American society.

Tell that to Poles and Irish who feel that because of years of Catholic teaching, they are economically behind compared to secular England, France, and Germany. Poles and Irish today (especially Irish) want nothing to do with Catholicism.

Tell that to Latin Americans who believe the Catholic Church has oppressed their women and contributed to large family sizes, burdening them economically by guilting them about contraception. Ask them how the Catholic Church has killed Native Americans by conquest, and enslaved the Mission Indians of California…

“mathematics based on the decimal system”

I hate to break this to you, but you will never get a world where 4 + 4 = 10, the best you can do is get people to pretend as if it does. lol

You’re not mathematically inclined, are you? My point was, by convention, people agree with the decimal system, so we can agree on how to count and measure, so money and ships don’t get lost!

We could’ve agreed with a base 8 system in which after 7 comes 10, but we didn’t. We have ten fingers, not eight legs like an octopus…

Actually, the computer you’re on uses a base 2 system, just 1s and 0s. Did you know that? And instead of 1111, we use a base 16 system and abbreviate that as F (after 9 comes A-F).

 

[CaliLobo]

You do know, Cali, that immunizations are based on “yesterday’s dogma”, right?

Yesterday’s germ theory is what led to the development of immunizations.

Of course scientific knowledge changes over time. Unfortunately, social science systems, such as schools, governments, and yes, churches, do not keep up.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus never advocated bans on abortion and gay marriage. The Bible has no verses on point. Therefore, to say that Jesus would’ve supported bans on these things is to misrepresent him.

Were you forgetting that you are not on an Evangelical Bible Alone Christian forum?

Catholics do not believe that we have to go by the words of Jesus written only in the Bible.

In fact, Jesus gave us a Church, and it is ONLY through the Church, and the Church ALONE, that we know what Jesus said.

As such, the Church is quite right in saying that Jesus would never advocate bans on abortion and gay marriage.

Any more than Jesus would advocate saying, “This is now a square!”

http://www.eplastics.com/circle-300_2.jpg

 

[CaliLobo]

Were you forgetting that you are not on an Evangelical Bible Alone Christian forum?

Catholics do not believe that we have to go by the words of Jesus written only in the Bible.

In fact, Jesus gave us a Church, and it is ONLY through the Church, and the Church ALONE, that we know what Jesus said.

As such, the Church is quite right in saying that Jesus would never advocate bans on abortion and gay marriage.

Any more than Jesus would advocate saying, “This is now a square!”

http://www.eplastics.com/circle-300_2.jpg

How can I trust the Magisterium, considering all of its historical crimes and abuses??? Because of Apostolic Succession?

No, people need more than that. People need to see that the Spirit is alive in the Catholic Church.

This is why so many leave for Evangelicalism. They see the Spirit there…

 

[PRmerger]

Of course scientific knowledge changes over time.

I could give you a litany of facts that haven’t changed, and will never change.

Let’s start with this:

• Water = H2O
• All systems in the universe are subject to entropy
• Our hearts are restless until they rest in Him
• If you can understand Him, He is not God
• Nothing from nothing creates nothing
• A square has four corners
• Force equals mass times acceleration

 

[PRmerger]

How can I trust the Magisterium, considering all of its historical crimes and abuses???

Because you can separate the sinners from the Teachings.

Heteropraxy vs orthopraxy.