Does anyone here, that believes in God, actually think that God accepts gay marriage?

[PRmerger]

Exactly. The church. (Or the Bible, which is promulgated by the church.)

Right.

So you think the Church got it right about proclaiming God is love, even though Church members do not act loving.

But somehow you think the Church got it wrong about proclaiming homosexual sex a sin, even though Church members engage in homosexual sex.

Why the inconsistency?

 

[CaliLobo]

Think about what you are saying, specifically regarding pedophile priests that you keep referring to. You are arguing that we ought to make molestation of children permissible.

And the same for pedophilia, then? Is that what you are arguing?

You don’t need religion to understand that pedophilia creates victims, and therefore we should not allow for it. Sex between consenting adults–what is so wrong about that?

It is an irrelevant point, as far as truth goes.

If there were a multitude of folks who decided to proclaim that 2 + 2 = 5, mathematicians certainly would be foolish to decide, “I guess we have to re-think the way we do math now. 2 + 2 = 5 from now on! We need to re-think the way we do things and get with modernity!”

If, due to changes in the way we live, it became advantageous to the modern world’s culture to adopt a new counting convention in which 2 + 2 does equal 5, then we would be foolish to continue to insist that 2 + 2 continue to equal 4.

That would make as much sense as saying, "Because my geometry teacher once got a DWI I think it’s possible to now say that this is a square:

A flawed analogy. We don’t trust the opinion of someone whose vision is impaired by alcohol. However, when the alcohol gets eliminated, vision goes back to its original state prior to drinking.

But how do we go back to what Christ originally thought? Even the Catholic Church’s traditions have changed over time…

 

[CaliLobo]

Right.

So you think the Church got it right about proclaiming God is love, even though Church members do not act loving.

But somehow you think the Church got it wrong about proclaiming homosexual sex a sin, even though Church members engage in homosexual sex.

Why the inconsistency?

Because God clearly states in the Bible that he is love. But he does NOT clearly state that we have to oppose gay marriage rights politically. Remember, the Bible predates democracy, and Jesus never advocated a political overthrow of Rome, although that’s what the Jews wanted. He was more concerned about winning the spiritual battle within people.

 

[josh987654321]

If, due to changes in the way we live, it became advantageous to the modern world’s culture to adopt a new counting convention in which 2 + 2 does equal 5, then we would be foolish to continue to insist that 2 + 2 continue to equal 4.

It would be foolish to conform to the majority and live as if 2 + 2 = 5, because regardless of perception, it has to add up, if I walk 2 meters and than another 2 meters, It doesn’t matter whether I think I should be 5 meters down the road or not, reality is that I will only be 4 meters down the road.

So in any case, if we adopted a new counting system where 2 + 2 = 5, it would still have to add up. We would also be able to translate this new system of 2 + 2 = 5 into our current system of 2 + 2 = 4 so that we would be saying the exact same thing just in a different language, because regardless of whatever system you use or what ever perception you have, it has to add up.

The very notion of ‘translation’ would be absolute nonsense unless there were an objective truth behind it that could be translated.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[PRmerger]

Because God clearly states in the Bible that he is love.

And who chose the ancient Christian texts that belong in the Bible, Cali?

 

[PRmerger]

Even the Catholic Church’s traditions have changed over time…

Why does that matter? We used to say that we had to fast from midnight. Now we fast for 1 hour.

How is that in indictment of the teachings of the Church?

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t need religion to understand that pedophilia creates victims, and therefore we should not allow for it. Sex between consenting adults–what is so wrong about that?

Sex between consenting adults can also create victims.

If, due to changes in the way we live, it became advantageous to the modern world’s culture to adopt a new counting convention in which 2 + 2 does equal 5, then we would be foolish to continue to insist that 2 + 2 continue to equal 4.

That sounds suspiciously like the Emperor’s New Clothes.

You do know that this made the Emperor end up parading around the town butt naked, right?

A flawed analogy. We don’t trust the opinion of someone whose vision is impaired by alcohol. However, when the alcohol gets eliminated, vision goes back to its original state prior to drinking.

Sure. I can go with that.

So when the sinful sexual urges get eliminated from the Church hierarchy, the vision goes back to its original state prior to the sexual sin.

 

[PRmerger]

He was more concerned about winning the spiritual battle within people.

And how do you know that Jesus was more concerned about winning the spiritual battle within people?

Was it because the Catholic Church told you this?



It would appear for some reason that here, again, you seem to trust that the Church got it right in proclaiming that Jesus was more concerned about winning the spiritual battle within people.

So how is it that you accept that the Church got it right on this point, but erred on some other things?

And what is it you use to determine when the Church got it right about what God did, and when she got it wrong? Is it when the Church proclaims things that you already wanted to believe?

 

[Rau]

Could we then agree with just one point? That, despite what the Vatican has written in its encyclicals, because the Vatican has committed so many historical abuses and errors, and because the teachings of Christ have been altered so many times over history, it is still possible for a person to be a faithful Christian and support same-sex marriage rights politically?

Individuals do wrong regularly, whether they reside at the Vatican or not. I know of no teaching of Christ that He or the Church has subsequently changed, nor any aspect of the faith or morals, taught by the Church, that the Church has subsequently “changed”.

A faithful catholic cannot support same sex “marriage”.

 

[josh987654321]

Because the church is Christ on earth. Because the church represents Christ and is his bride. Because the church is supposed to fulfill Christ’s mission that he entrusted to it.

but remember as Christ said, there will be wolves amongst the sheep, by their fruits you will know them.

There is a forum poster named Nacho45 with a quote in his signature that I believe is really good.

*“Let it be understood that those who are not found living as He taught are not Christian, even though they profess with their lips the teachings of Christ.” *Justin Marytr

You know what sucks about falling away? That my friends in church haven’t exactly reached out to me and offered to encourage, pray, and intervene, and convince me that I am in error. Instead I’m just left to my own devices. I’ve even had one person call me out and say I was never a believer to begin with. Where is the group of Christians that should call me, reach out, and pray for me? Do you see Christ in this?

Christ works through people and by their fruits you shall know them, 7 Ask, and you will receive. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened for you. (Matthew 7:7) If someone slams their door in your face, brush yourself off and move onto the next house (metaphorically speaking, you are doing it even now being on CAF ), eventually you will knock on Christ’s door and he will open it and embrace you into his arms as the prodigal son. but remember “humility opens the doors to the kingdom of heaven.”

Whoever betrays Christ finds a comfortable path, but one with thorns. Whoever follows Christ travels a path of hardships but one that is extremely beautiful. The path of the traitor is not beautiful, but only comfortable and the thorns that he encounters would serve to turn him back, but he makes use of them to make deeper slashes on his soul. On the other hand, the hardships on the path that must be traveled by the one who follows Christ, acquire with time a positive value and what seemed impossible before, becomes something easy for Christ’s follower. (Paraphrase from the book “Springs of Mercy” from here )

I would also like to ask you to please read this short booklet - From Sinai to Calvary and to read my two posts #14 & #15 on this thread - Very mad at someone. Need prayers to help me forgive

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[HandyAndy]

Calilobo…The Catholic church and its teachings may have been founded by Christ, however it has some of the warts of human nature within. Human nature IS fallible. Christs teachings are however not. It is our job…yours and mine…to discern which is which, based on contradictions between preachers or smooth talkers and the word of God within the Bible. We must be alert to a Judas within our midst.

The Bible does not condone same sex relationships.

At the last supper, Jesus sends a clear message. He includes Judas as one of the 12. He is fully aware of his betrayal and deception. He demonstrates that the Judas’s of this world will be interwoven within his church and we must be always on our guard. The evil which seeks to see Christs church fall…is more easily done from within.

Christ exists in the Eucharist…truly present. This is and should always represent the pinnacle of our faith. Pure and just love from the father. You don’t need to look for any affirmation from anyone else, save the father. He waits in the tabernacle everyday in every Catholic church, for any of his children to bring their concerns or to simply share a moment of your time. His presence is incredibly humbling when you visit on your own. No distractions. You and him. Ask him what he thinks…ask him that knows. Be patient…you will get your answer.
You are blessed my friend and through the grace of God you will find your way home. A father that loves you. A father that knows you and understands you. Your doubts and frustrations.
…and so with love…he waits.

youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf

May God Bless You.

 

[josh987654321]

Calilobo…The Catholic church and its teachings may have been founded by Christ, however it has some of the warts of human nature within. Human nature IS fallible. Christs teachings are however not. It is our job…yours and mine…to discern which is which, based on contradictions between preachers or smooth talkers and the word of God within the Bible. We must be alert to a Judas within our midst.

The Bible does not condone same sex relationships.

At the last supper, Jesus sends a clear message. He includes Judas as one of the 12. He is fully aware of his betrayal and deception. He demonstrates that the Judas’s of this world will be interwoven within his church and we must be always on our guard. The evil which seeks to see Christs church fall…is more easily done from within.

Christ exists in the Eucharist…truly present. This is and should always represent the pinnacle of our faith. Pure and just love from the father. You don’t need to look for any affirmation from anyone else, save the father. He waits in the tabernacle everyday in every Catholic church, for any of his children to bring their concerns or to simply share a moment of your time. His presence is incredibly humbling when you visit on your own. No distractions. You and him. Ask him what he thinks…ask him that knows. Be patient…you will get your answer.
You are blessed my friend and through the grace of God you will find your way home. A father that loves you. A father that knows you and understands you. Your doubts and frustrations.
…and so with love…he waits.

youshallbelieve.com/A-plea-to-humanity.pdf

May God Bless You.

Amen

 

[Rau]

Because the church is Christ on earth. Because the church represents Christ and is his bride. Because the church is supposed to fulfill Christ’s mission that he entrusted to it.

You know what sucks about falling away? That my friends in church haven’t exactly reached out to me and offered to encourage, pray, and intervene, and convince me that I am in error. Instead I’m just left to my own devices. I’ve even had one person call me out and say I was never a believer to begin with. Where is the group of Christians that should call me, reach out, and pray for me? Do you see Christ in this?

You seem to suggest that any failing by church personnel or members overturns all that the church teaches? That is a great leap.

Cali, would you be open to an approach from your church friends to return, to earnestly contemplate what the Church teaches, and, perhaps to recommit? Is this something you are open to?

 

[CaliLobo]

You seem to suggest that any failing by church personnel or members overturns all that the church teaches? That is a great leap.

Cali, would you be open to an approach from your church friends to return, to earnestly contemplate what the Church teaches, and, perhaps to recommit? Is this something you are open to?

Yes. I have messaged you privately regarding this.

 

[HandyAndy]

Just home from Mass CaliLobo…Prayer said…Looks like Prayer answered?

 

[josh987654321]

Just home from Mass CaliLobo…Prayer said…Looks like Prayer answered?

x2

 

[CaliLobo]

Just home from Mass CaliLobo…Prayer said…Looks like Prayer answered?

josh987654321:

x2

Not so fast, as there are so many thoughts racing through my mind. This is the PM I sent Rau, but I figure the two of you would benefit as well:

1. I have lost faith that I can find a woman who shares my values at church (see my other threads). I have lost faith that the church has answers when it comes to dating.
2. I work in a leftist field and fear reprisal from my colleagues
3. I am in my 30s, and I feel like I need to be politically liberal, otherwise women won’t date me.
4. So many other people are agnostic and live just fine, how do they manage? Maybe I’m the crazy one.
5. I still struggle with wanting to explore myself sexually before settling down, and regret not doing so in college (instead going to church and studying, but I never met a woman at church!)

If I switch to Catholicism I fear:
6) Reprisal from parents
7) Loss of Protestant and agnostic friends
8) Inadequate sense of church community, and loneliness (Evangelical churches are so much better at creating community)
9) Lack of sexual freedom within marriage due to bans on contraception. Undue pressure to marry right, due to remarriage being forbidden.
10) Persecution from the world! I’m tired of being persecuted, I’m persecuted as is from family, “friends”, and life.

I fully admit that sex and marriage have a lot to do with 1-10. But I don’t care. This is what I’m going through. I want nothing more than to be married to a woman that I am excited about (see previous threads). That is honestly all I’m living for these days.

By the way, I thought I’d share a quote from Carrie Underwood, who is one of the few Christian mainstream celebrities and is very active in social justice and philanthropy:

As a married person myself, I don’t know what it’s like to be told I can’t marry somebody I love, and want to marry… I can’t imagine how that must feel. I definitely think we should all have the right to love, and love publicly, the people that we want to love… Our church is gay friendly. Above all, God wanted us to love others. It’s not about setting rules, or [saying] ‘everyone has to be like me’. No. We’re all different. That’s what makes us special. We have to love each other and get on with each other. It’s not up to me to judge anybody.
Source: articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/11/entertainment/la-et-mg-carrie-underwood-gay-marriage

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, but the people are the Church. Not just the Magisterium, or the building. If the people are committing abuses in the name of Christ, then whether you like it or not, that reflects badly on Christ, and it makes people less likely to follow Christ.

If people in a church abuse me, you can make excuses for their conduct, but it will still make me question whether this really is the God that I want to follow.

See, and the fact that the Catholic Church preaches sex only within heterosexual marriage, and yet harbors priests who have committed sex crimes against minors, makes me question whether the Catholic Church really is of God, and whether the Holy Spirit really is present in the Catholic Church. The fact that the spiritual leaders of the Catholic Church cannot follow the Church’s teachings regarding sex, means to me that perhaps we need to rethink whether what we thought were sexual sins, really are sexual sins.

If it weren’t for man-made religion, sex outside of marriage wouldn’t be wrong. Man-made religion is only a way for people to oppress other people…

By the way, you haven’t answered my question about why Poles, Irish, and Latin Americans are leaving the Catholic Church in droves. Why are they?

Could we then agree with just one point? That, despite what the Vatican has written in its encyclicals, because the Vatican has committed so many historical abuses and errors, and because the teachings of Christ have been altered so many times over history, it is still possible for a person to be a faithful Christian and support same-sex marriage rights politically?

This is an ad hominem argument…if you don’t respect churchmen, then you may pick and choose from what they say. What I find odd about this line of reasoning is that people who are very aware of the self-deceptions in their own hearts, especially if even their worst behavior from their own distant history is drug in, will so rarely use this same line of reasoning to disqualify themselves as arbiters of faith and morals. Does anyone know why that is?

 

[esieffe]

When is someone going to put this thread out of it’s misery?

 

[Rau]

…
As a married person myself, I don’t know what it’s like to be told I can’t marry somebody I love, and want to marry… I can’t imagine how that must feel. **I definitely think we should all have the right to love, and love publicly, the people that we want to love… **Our church is gay friendly. Above all, God wanted us to love others. It’s not about setting rules, or [saying] ‘everyone has to be like me’. No. We’re all different. That’s what makes us special. We have to love each other and get on with each other. It’s not up to me to judge anybody.
Source: articles.latimes.com/2012/jun/11/entertainment/la-et-mg-carrie-underwood-gay-marriage

Love anyone we want to love…well, yeah,…but there are restrictions aren’t there? Our love for a woman who is already married needs to be contained to an acceptable form of love doesn’t it. I still have the greatest affection for a girlfriend from my younger days (both she and I are married to other people now), but this “love” is contained by reference to what is proper. Does “love” in the context of the quote above extend to having sex? Clearly sex is not always a part of the relationship of love.

I understand (in an intellectual way) the pain a gay person may suffer in striving to avoid or turn away from an intimate relationship. But I also can see the objective incongruity of two men employing their sexual faculty, emitting semen, in the course of their relationship.