Does anything render Dec. 25th impossible?

[Scottgun]

For the date of Jesus’ birth that is. Note that I am not asking for evidence that renders the date *difficult *or unlikely, but evidence that utterly rules it out altogether because I am already aware of the things that make it difficult:

1. Shepherds with sheeps in the field in Dec. is unlikely. Which I agree, but are we certain that in the thousands of years of shepherding in the region, there were never exceptions under any circumstances?
2. Census called in Dec. would have been difficult and impractical. I agree, but of course this assumes that governments always do things that are sensible and practical. Also, since the gospel gives no detail of the context like when it was called, when the news got to the outer regions of the empire, how long people had to respond, etc., it looks like a case of not enough information to render Dec. 25th utterly impossible.
3. Later Christians picked the date to supplant pagan holiday. Ok, but the calendar was loaded with pagan holidays-- meaning that even if those doing the picking randomly threw a dart at a calender, they still could conceivably get it right.

Anything else? Am I straining credulity by retaining a belief in Dec. 25th as the date?

 

[mchale]

All things considered, the only way to rule out December 25th would be to conclusively proove another date. Since that is unlikely at best, no it is not impossible. Is it important to you for some reason to maintain a belief that December 25th is the actual birth date?

–
Bill

 

[ALLFORHIM]

For the date of Jesus’ birth that is. Note that I am not asking for evidence that renders the date *difficult *or unlikely, but evidence that utterly rules it out altogether because I am already aware of the things that make it difficult:

1. Shepherds with sheeps in the field in Dec. is unlikely. Which I agree, but are we certain that in the thousands of years of shepherding in the region, there were never exceptions under any circumstances?
2. Census called in Dec. would have been difficult and impractical. I agree, but of course this assumes that governments always do things that are sensible and practical. Also, since the gospel gives no detail of the context like when it was called, when the news got to the outer regions of the empire, how long people had to respond, etc., it looks like a case of not enough information to render Dec. 25th utterly impossible.
3. Later Christians picked the date to supplant pagan holiday. Ok, but the calendar was loaded with pagan holidays-- meaning that even if those doing the picking randomly threw a dart at a calender, they still could conceivably get it right.

Anything else? Am I straining credulity by retaining a belief in Dec. 25th as the date?

Hi,
I think that most if not all christians agree that Dec. 25th is not the actual date of Jesus’s birthday. From what I understand Dec. 25th was a pagan holiday and the christians wanted to detract from the pagan holiday so they sort of took it over, so to speak.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi again,
His birthDAY was probably not mentioned specifically because God probably did not want us to focus too much on His birth. Or I should say that specific day anyway. Although I guess we do it anyway

 

[RCCDefender]

I heard that His actual birth was on April 4, 6 B.C.

 

[Scottgun]

Is it important to you for some reason to maintain a belief that December 25th is the actual birth date?

–
Bill

Not that my faith stands or falls due to it. But I am loathe to chuck little “t” tradition in the face of a few reasonable but fully worldly points. We know that God protects His Church from teaching error on faith and morals, but I don’t think that means the He goes on siesta regarding everything else. That is, I think it is perfectly acceptable to believe He guided us to the correct date, and I think perhaps, in a misguided attempt to look respectable to non-believers, we abandon salutary beliefs like this too quickly in the face of difficulties.

 

[RCCDefender]

Hi,
…From what I understand Dec. 25th was a pagan holiday and the christians wanted to detract from the pagan holiday so they sort of took it over, so to speak.

That’s part of it. There is a lot of symbolism in the date. It’s based around the winter solstice which was a pagan holiday for worshipers of the sun god. The Church was trying to converts these pagans to worship the SON of God. Also, winter solstice marked the shortest day of the year. Every day after that got longer and longer, meaning more light over the world. This was why the date was so important to these sun worshiping pagans. But Christians worship the TRUE LIGHT of the world, Jesus Christ, so the symbolism of light and the True Light tied in perfectly. This makes December 25 an ideal symbol of Christ, the SON of the TRUE God bringing His TRUE LIGHT into the world.

Sorry, got kinda wordy there…

 

[MyPhilomena]

For the date of Jesus’ birth that is. Note that I am not asking for evidence that renders the date *difficult *or unlikely, but evidence that utterly rules it out altogether because I am already aware of the things that make it difficult:

1. Shepherds with sheeps in the field in Dec. is unlikely. Which I agree, but are we certain that in the thousands of years of shepherding in the region, there were never exceptions under any circumstances?
2. Census called in Dec. would have been difficult and impractical. I agree, but of course this assumes that governments always do things that are sensible and practical. Also, since the gospel gives no detail of the context like when it was called, when the news got to the outer regions of the empire, how long people had to respond, etc., it looks like a case of not enough information to render Dec. 25th utterly impossible.
3. Later Christians picked the date to supplant pagan holiday. Ok, but the calendar was loaded with pagan holidays-- meaning that even if those doing the picking randomly threw a dart at a calender, they still could conceivably get it right.

Anything else? Am I straining credulity by retaining a belief in Dec. 25th as the date?

jw’s say the exact same thing about december 25th. they state that it would be impossible for Christ to have been born on dec.25 because it would be cold, and there would be no shepherds out in the field on that date. they claim that he was likely born in october and not december. since they were not there, their “logic” is faulty at best.

 

[RCCDefender]

jw’s say the exact same thing about december 25th. they state that it would be impossible for Christ to have been born on dec.25 because it would be cold, and there would be no shepherds out in the field on that date. they claim that he was likely born in october and not december. since they were not there, their “logic” is faulty at best.

I guess it would have been snowing too!

 

[Scottgun]

jw’s say the exact same thing about december 25th. they state that it would be impossible for Christ to have been born on dec.25 because it would be cold, and there would be no shepherds out in the field on that date. they claim that he was likely born in october and not december. since they were not there, their “logic” is faulty at best.

Right. If someone shows me something that unambiguously renders the date impossible, I’ll concede the gig is up. Until then, I think it is important to resist the brute imperial empiricism and the “hermeneutics of suspicion” of this age and cling to a sense of enchantment with God’s order that breaks into the real world and is not just a bunch of symbols.

Scott

 

[mchale]

Right. If someone shows me something that unambiguously renders the date impossible, I’ll concede the gig is up. Until then, I think it is important to resist the brute imperial empiricism and the “hermeneutics of suspicion” of this age and cling to a sense of enchantment with God’s order that breaks into the real world and is not just a bunch of symbols.

Scott

Just keep in mind that suggesting alternative dates for the Birth of Jesus is not something limited to our age of empiricism. In the Middle Ages, some theologians held that Jesus was born on the same day of the same month that he died on. The reasoning was that Jesus lived a perfect life and the symmetry appealed to them. The fact that it would make Jesus’s birth in the spring also holds a certain appeal since the lambing season is the time when shepherds would most likely have slept outside.

–
Bill

 

[MyPhilomena]

I guess it would have been snowing too!

well, they love to try to debunk our faith piece by piece. all i can say is, if they want to debate Christmas, come on in, and i’ll be right glad to talk to you about Christmas, the date, and the birth of Jesus, and anything they want to try to debunk, please come on in, and let’s pull up a chair and have a nice long talk.

 

[jmcrae]

The pagans were primitive, but they weren’t complete idiots - they would have noticed if their holiday got moved from December 21 (Winter Solstice) to December 25th - the sun would have been in the wrong position in the sky.

So it seems unlikely that Christmas was assigned to December 25th to supplant a pagan holiday, since it’s four days too late for that.

It makes a lot more sense that December 25th was chosen because it is exactly nine months after the Annunciation, which has been celebrated on March 25 for longer than we’ve been celebrating Christmas.

Also, I did a calculation one time using one of those “when will your baby be born?” web sites, and I found out that a first-born child conceived during the day time on March 25th will most likely be born at or around midnight on December 24th, presuming that both mother and child are healthy throughout the pregnancy.

 

[Scottgun]

Just keep in mind that suggesting alternative dates for the Birth of Jesus is not something limited to our age of empiricism. In the Middle Ages, some theologians held that Jesus was born on the same day of the same month that he died on. The reasoning was that Jesus lived a perfect life and the symmetry appealed to them. The fact that it would make Jesus’s birth in the spring also holds a certain appeal since the lambing season is the time when shepherds would most likely have slept outside.

–
Bill

Ok, but I don’t think anyone suggesting different dates back then regarded others holding to the Dec. 25th date as backward dunderheads (maybe some did, I don’t know). My beef is that skeptics dogmatically declare Dec. 25 is not the date without a trace of humility or imagination.

 

[buffalo]

Shepherds in the field would not disallow it. Winter is the green season there, the season for grazing. Summer is too hot and dry and grazing is difficult.

 

[jmcrae]

Shepherds in the field would not disallow it. Winter is the green season there, the season for grazing. Summer is too hot and dry and grazing is difficult.

THANK YOU!! :clapping:

I’m glad I’m not the only one who believes this - almost everyone I talk to thinks there is three feet of snow in Israel during December, and that therefore there couldn’t be any sheep outside at that time.

Do they even get snow, there, other than in the higher elevations?

 

[buffalo]

Good News: Jesus Christ was born on December 25, 1 BC.
Bad News: Ussher’s Date for Adam at 4004 BC is Wrong

 

[mchale]

The pagans were primitive, but they weren’t complete idiots - they would have noticed if their holiday got moved from December 21 (Winter Solstice) to December 25th - the sun would have been in the wrong position in the sky.

So it seems unlikely that Christmas was assigned to December 25th to supplant a pagan holiday, since it’s four days too late for that.

The pagans in question did not celebrate the Solstice, rather they celebrated the fact that the days were getting longer. So it took a few days before it was clear that the days were getting longer again. Hence the name of the pagan festival Sol Invictus (Invicible Sun).

It makes a lot more sense that December 25th was chosen because it is exactly nine months after the Annunciation, which has been celebrated on March 25 for longer than we’ve been celebrating Christmas.

I am going to need a citation for that one. According to the Catholic Encyclopeida (online edition), the feast of the Annunciation dates to the early 5th century, long after Christmas was celebrated as a feast.

–
Bill

 

[buffalo]

THANK YOU!! :clapping:

I’m glad I’m not the only one who believes this - almost everyone I talk to thinks there is three feet of snow in Israel during December, and that therefore there couldn’t be any sheep outside at that time.

Do they even get snow, there, other than in the higher elevations?

Not really. It is colder, but green. (and deserts get cold at night even in summer) The Shepherds would move their flocks into the hills and rather than keep moving them back to town would stay with them in the field. The green season is from Nov to April.

 

[mosher]

The pagans were primitive, but they weren’t complete idiots - they would have noticed if their holiday got moved from December 21 (Winter Solstice) to December 25th - the sun would have been in the wrong position in the sky.

So it seems unlikely that Christmas was assigned to December 25th to supplant a pagan holiday, since it’s four days too late for that.

It makes a lot more sense that December 25th was chosen because it is exactly nine months after the Annunciation, which has been celebrated on March 25 for longer than we’ve been celebrating Christmas.

Also, I did a calculation one time using one of those “when will your baby be born?” web sites, and I found out that a first-born child conceived during the day time on March 25th will most likely be born at or around midnight on December 24th, presuming that both mother and child are healthy throughout the pregnancy.

This has been a constant point that I like to make because I also am weary of throwing out tradition for a “new” understanding. I find it very interesting that the earliest feast celebrated other than the Pasch was the Feast of the Incarnation (The Annunciation) which as you stated is nine months from the date that we celebrate His birth.

Shepherds in the field would not disallow it. Winter is the green season there, the season for grazing. Summer is too hot and dry and grazing is difficult.

This is also an important point. Israel is in a different temperate zone. I live on roughly the same parallel and winter is cold but I don’t like on the Mediterranean Sea which changes everything concerning climate trends. So, again, I don’t buy wholly the idea that Jesus was not born on what we now call Christmas.