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ChurchTorch
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It all depends on the church. It’s going to cost $15K to relocate the tabernacle to the rear center of the sanctuary in my parish – and God is worth every penny!
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ChurchTorch
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I watched that video and I enjoyed it. It was quite a transformation butI don’t believe that is a typical situation. I also think I could have done better.
Placing a small crucifix on the center of the shelf sitting on the altar right below a large crucifix hanging on the reredos looks looks incongruent to me. The altar and shelf arrangement also look extremely cluttered to me personally. I personally prefer something that is extremely clean although not as stark as what they began with.
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It shouldn’t have been moved in the first place!!!It all depends on the church. ** It’s going to cost $15K to relocate the tabernacle to the rear center of the sanctuary in my parish** – and God is worth every penny!
You & just call me Tim would love my parish, where a select few run the NO, that’s a NO parish! You know where the priest faces you putting on a play, must be, too many abuses to say it is a Mass!I watched that video and I enjoyed it. It was quite a transformation butI don’t believe that is a typical situation. **I also think I could have done better. **
Unbelievable!
Placing a small crucifix on the center of the shelf sitting on the altar right below a large crucifix hanging on the reredos looks looks incongruent to me. The altar and shelf arrangement also look extremely cluttered to me personally. I personally prefer something that is extremely clean although not as stark as what they began with.
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ChurchTorch
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ANd it would be nice if the Great Schism never happened. Absolutely moot point. The reality is that is has been moved.It shouldn’t have been moved in the first place!!!
Where’s my violin?
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:extrahappy::extrahappy:ANd it would be nice if the Great Schism never happened. Absolutely moot point. The reality is that is has been moved.
Where’s my violin?
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ChadS
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You didn’t just try to explain the origins of those words you used them and you meant them. You have a somewhat distorted view of Church history when you say that cafeteria Catholicism is only a problem now. I am sure there are many Catholics that still pick and choose what to believe, but one only needs to look back through the history of the church to find many examples of people calling themselves Catholic and not living the faith. If not then why the need for people like St. Francis, who was called to rebuild the Church, and people like St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of Avila. They all saw moral decay that crept into the church, churches that sat empty because nobody came to mass or confessionals that sat empty. These aren’t problems that only came about after 1963 and Pope Paul VI, they’ve existed in one form or another throughout history.
You should cut back on your vitriol a little bit also. I haven’t tried to demonize you or anybody else that prefers the EF over the OF. I’ve been Catholic for all of five years now, your fights seem to go back much further than that. If you feel that you’ve been attacked and demonized for preferring the EF then I am sorry. It’s something that should not have happened. Although I’ve never attended an EF I am happy to see the movements Pope Benedict has taken in freeing up its use. I am happy to see the increased interest in tradition and things that are more traditional.
ChadS
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dplusr
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Seamus,
The fact that they think the teachings are wrong does not stem from the fact that they are RC and attend the OF. What I don’t understand with a lot of traditionalists is the fact that they blame a lack of reverance for the Eucharist and a lack of acceptance of Church teachings on the OF. The Lord gave us a will and intellect, that means that we can choose to accept the Teachings of the church or not. When you get to the core of what makes us Catholic, it is all the same whether you call yourself traditionalist or not. My beliefs are close to what some may call traditionalist but yet I have never been to a Latin mass (I keep missing the one we have every so often) that does not mean I love the Lord any less or show him any less respect. In fact the more I come to learn about my faith, the more I love Him and the more I want to live my daily life in a way that is worthy of His sacrifice for my sins.
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Bluegoat
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If I were a Catholic Bishop
, I think I would be very hesitant to establish an EF parish. I would worry that it would begin to create a division of a kind that would be bad for the diocese, kind of us against them. I would worry that those who like the EF would be drained from other parishes. I would worry that it would mean that people in other parishes would have less chance to be exposed to the EF. I would worry that those concerned about liturgy might be less present at the OF. I would not be happy that the EF would not be part of the life, if even to a small extent, of every Latin Catholic parish.
Look what has happened in my church. We have two liturgies, and they may well end up becoming two separate churches. If Latin Catholicism really wants to maintain these two liturgies as active parts of a unified rite, then I think separate parishes are a bad idea.
, I think I would be very hesitant to establish an EF parish. I would worry that it would begin to create a division of a kind that would be bad for the diocese, kind of us against them. I would worry that those who like the EF would be drained from other parishes. I would worry that it would mean that people in other parishes would have less chance to be exposed to the EF. I would worry that those concerned about liturgy might be less present at the OF. I would not be happy that the EF would not be part of the life, if even to a small extent, of every Latin Catholic parish.Look what has happened in my church. We have two liturgies, and they may well end up becoming two separate churches. If Latin Catholicism really wants to maintain these two liturgies as active parts of a unified rite, then I think separate parishes are a bad idea.
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ChadS
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In some sense I think you are right. I’ve seen posts on CAF and on other blogs that talk about some parishes that have both the EF and OF. In some instances the EF people want to have their own bulletins or keep their announcements out of the main Sunday bulletin, or they ask that the hand missals for the OF be removed from the pews prior to their services. In more disturbing cases some EF ask for their own ciborium so eucharists consecrated during the OF aren’t intermingled. In all those instances the pastor of those parishes made the right call and said no saying the EF mass said at that particular parish is just as much a part of the community as the OF.If I were a Catholic Bishop
Look what has happened in my church. We have two liturgies, and they may well end up becoming two separate churches. If Latin Catholicism really wants to maintain these two liturgies as active parts of a unified rite, then I think separate parishes are a bad idea.
On the other hand having an EF mass seems to be a great blessing to the parish all around. In spite of the negatives I’ve mentioned above I’ve heard far more stories about how the OF at parishes has been enriched due to the EF. Attendance at the EF goes up when it becomes a regular option and people who hadn’t considered it before start to go to it. The priest may become more reverent and holy or have a great sense of what it means to be a priest. I’ve read about the OF masses becoming more formal and reverent and in line with what the Church imagines the OF being.
I think it’s in everybody’s best interests to keep parishes functioning with both the EF and OF of the mass and not try to separate one from the other.
ChadS
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jonpd
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I think the differences that the Anglican Church are much different than those in the RCC. In the RCC we all are still under the authority of the Church and the Holy Father, we have differences on how we percive how the Church’s primary means of worship, the Mass, should be conducted. And we already have different rites within the church such as the Eastern Catholics, although admittedly we haven’t had them worshiping in the same building with a Latin Rite congregation as far as I know. In the Anglican church you have a much more serious split.If I were a Catholic Bishop
Look what has happened in my church. We have two liturgies, and they may well end up becoming two separate churches. If Latin Catholicism really wants to maintain these two liturgies as active parts of a unified rite, then I think separate parishes are a bad idea.
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Bluegoat
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But the different rites are also quite a different situation, and I think that is rather to the point. Although individuals may attend parishes of other rites, moving between them as members is not simple. Also, there are differences in how theology is expressed that are substantial. And there have been issues with how the Eastern rites are unified to Catholicism as a whole.
The EF is not a separate rite, and so the kind of unity that is required seems to me to be quite different. Honestly, I wonder if it can work, because I think the expression of our liturgy forms us as Christians. The only way I can see is to make sure that both the EF and the OF are part of the liturgical experience of everyone in the Latin Rite.
And really, the desire of people here to have an EF parish so they can have more fellowship tends to underscore this. Not in cases where the EF “wanders” because that is a bit difficult. But where EF people do not want to have fellowship, outreach activities, and so on with the other parishioners, or prefer to do these things with other EF people - that is evidence that this could actually be a problem.
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malphono
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Actually, it does happen. The case are limited, though, and are mostly where a Roman church is host to an Eastern or Oriental mission that is being established.
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Dempsey1919
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I agree that it would cost money, but I think it would be worth it. I also think that those who want the EF to be celebrated in their parish would be more than willing to donate money for the this cause.
If our impoverished ancestors could all donate money to create magnificent cathedrals in Europe, I am sure that modern Catholics could afford to donate a few pounds/dollars to build altar rails and fixed altars.
Lastly, I would like to mention that the changes made to many churches in the wake of Vatican II also cost money. It wouldn’t have been cheap to remove the high altars and restructure the sanctuaries. If they could afford to renovate the churches to accomodate the OF, I am sure the money could be found to make the minor changes needed to accomodate the EF.
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CradleCath
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I do feel isolated in CAF, but I can’t let that bother me, because I’m learning so much…both about my faith & myself. However, in “real life” I don’t. I just don’t mention the fact that I attend the TLM. to the Novus Ordo people, I don’t wear my veil in front of them…one has to be very careful. We have ONE…that’s right just ONE woman in our Latin Mass community who could come across as disdainful to those who attend the Novus Ordo. She needs to quiet down with the veil. She can be a bit contemptuous toward the patrons of the other Mass. HOWEVER, she’s young & I know that she is the one who asked some of the other pastors in our city to announce from their pulpits, put in their bulletins…the fact that there is now a Latin Mass here. She was just totally rebuffed & that has affected her attitude.
There IS a lot of fear of the TLM. I think that the hierarchy here in the U.S., at least, fears a reduction of the authority that they **THINK **they were granted by the council. I have not found a document yet that verifies this…if anyone has please post it. It has created a total MESS in my area. There are 4 diocese in my state, plus I live on the state line, which houses another diocese, about 20 minutes from my home. Every bishop doing his “own thing” concerning RICA, the marriage classes, the children’s First Communion (one diocese has them “celebrate” this awesome time in their lives…basically alone, as each child receives when they have completed their requirements…my diocese still has a complete class make their First Communion together…another in my state, celebrate their First Communion…before their first confession.
As for the laity, I believe that they are afraid of losing their “right” to distribute Communion, speak from the Sanctuary, etc., etc. This boggles my mind, as there are so many other ways to serve the Church. There is the “house of bread”, the choir, the altar society, the K. of C., I’m part of a group that is cleaning the Church for Easter week. Perhaps they consider these duties menial, & so what if they are. Jesus washed the feet of His apostles.
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Malleus_01
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Malleus: Well , that may be - but Catholicism doesnt change. Those who tried are finding out that lesson the hard way. Why do you think there are no new vocations and parish after parish closing and worldly Priests and Bishops (Not all , but many) Benedict knows that in order to stem this downward trend - he has to return the Church to Tradition. The longer he takes in doing so - the more damage that will be done. Thats my opinion. Take it for what it is.
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ChadS
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Of the various terms you used the one I took issue with was the term “modernist.” In the contexts I’ve seen it used it usually means that the Church departed from or changed it’s teachings over the last 40 years to adapt contrary and un-Catholic teachings. I’ve seen it used mostly by groups affiliated with the SSPV or other sedevacantist. In what sense do you use the term “modernist”? Am I wrong in my understanding of that word?
Actually around the U.S. vocations are on the rise and have been for a few years. Yes, parishes continue to close, especially in the inner citys but they also continue to open and grow in the suburbs. Sure, seminarys aren’t full like they were in the 30s, 40s and 50s, but compared to the numbers from the 70s and 80s there are more there. Dioceses that 10 years ago that were ordaining zero or one priest a year are now ordaining 4 or more. Sure, it’s not the 40 or 50 they used to ordain but it’s a start.
ChadS
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Lormar
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Chad
Have you ever read Pope St. Pius X’s encyclical letter “Pascendi Dominici Gregis” and the Syllabus condemning the errors of the modernists, “Lamentabili Sane”? If not, maybe you should so that you can familiarize yourself with modernism and modernists.
Have you ever read Pope St. Pius X’s encyclical letter “Pascendi Dominici Gregis” and the Syllabus condemning the errors of the modernists, “Lamentabili Sane”? If not, maybe you should so that you can familiarize yourself with modernism and modernists.
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ChurchTorch
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More and more I think this is just a bunch of malarkey. I think 99.9% of those who attend the OF don’t even consider the EF long enough to form an opinion about it one way or the other.
Before Summorum Pontificum was released, my old bishop would not allow the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in his diocese. I personally disagreed with him. The reason he gave was a concern that allowing the Tridentine would cause division. Even with the prohibition we had division. We had “traditionalists” who brought in visiting priests from outside the diocese who would celebrate “private” Masses of 100-200 people in the local Marriott ballroom. It was their cause celebre by golly and the vitriol fired at that bishop was embarrassing.
It only the Tridentine Mass were allowed we would fill the Church and all would be OK was the chant for several years.
Moving forward, the old bishop retires, we get a new (and wonderful) bishop and 5 months later Summorum Pontificum is released. Within 2 weeks the bishops announces plans to have the EF celebrated throughout the diocese in strategically chosen parishes. He chose the parishes very wisely and the clergy really stepped-up.
Immediately I heard cries of “we need our own TLM parish!” What the heck? In my deanery the bishop chose a beautiful and centrally located parish staffed by some highly orthodox and supportive Franciscans. They were given a plum Mass time (10:00), the inside of the Church was changed to support both the OF and the EF yet we heard cries of “we need our own TLM parish!”
We are coming up to the 3 year mark. The EF is still a low Mass (they have not been able to assemble the singers or an organist needed for a Missa Cantata or High Mass) and it’s poorly attended. When I visit (monthly) I am struck by what I feel is the absolute absence of joy. It’s slowly dying and that troubles me.
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CradleCath
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ChurchTorch
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