Does Being A Traditionalist Sometimes Make You Feel Isolated?

[ChurchTorch]

This is the second or third post in which you’ve referred to Post #107, as if it is the stone that contained the ten Commandments,

[SIGN]Following is most of post #107:
The term “Novus Ordo” is not an official title of anything. Every new edition of the missal is a “novus ordo,” meaning literally the “new order” of how the missal is celebrated.[/SIGN]

Lets see…do I find a link here? One that states that the Novus Ordo is not the official title of the New Order of the Mass?? Why no, I don’t. And, it almost seems as if “Call me Tim”, thinks that every newly published missal, contains a New Order of the Mass.(Let’s see, there is the St. Joseph’s missal, the missal I have from Angelus Press, the Baronius Missal & on & on. Guess what, they all contain the same Mass.

[SIGN][SIGN}The rest of post #107:Every time the Tridentine missal was revised (and yes, it was revised several times) the new missal became, technically, the “novus ordo,” the "new order of the Mass. [/SIGN][/SIGN]

About the later revisions of the Mass of Trent…Pope Pius V himself added to the Missal the feast of Our Lady of Victory, to celebrate the victory of Lepanto of 7 October 1571. His immediate successor, Pope Gregory XIII, changed the name of this feast to “The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary” and Pope John XXIII changed it to “Our Lady of the Rosary”.

These additions of feast days hardly constitute a Novus Ordo. Now, if either you or “call me Tim” can show, me with a link, that the Tridentine Mass has ever been called the “New Order of the Tridentine Mass”…maybe I can stop laughing. Until then :extrahappy::extrahappy:

[SIGN]Those who use the phrase “Novus Ordo” are using it as a derisive term for those who prefer the Ordinary Form. As the poster above stated, the Church has NEVER referred to the Mass as celebrated by the Missal of Pope Paul VI as the “Novus Ordo.” [/SIGN]

You are hilarious. Type Novus Ordo Missae, or Mass into your search engine & see how many hits you come up with.

Seriously?

That part about the “St. Joseph’s missal, the missal I have from Angelus Press, the Baronius Missal” was especially entertaining, and sad at the same time. Real sad.

Still all emotion and zero substance… :yawn:

The Church simply doesn’t use the phrase to define the OF. Again, you lose. Victory to “Call Me Tim”

 

[StillWondering]

Has the OP considered making a website for your diocesan EF movement or joining one if there is one already.

Having an internet site where updates and activities are announced can be a real boon. If you are starting from scratch, start small by having EF picnics at a park near the parish of the week. Ask everyone to bring something if they can since the group size won’t stabilize for a while. Also, if you can have a sign at the pinic, people would feel that they have a place. Since you need to travel around for EF, ask on the website for more ideas and if anyone has experience organizing group meetings. There are plenty of people who have done small groups growing up and could lend a hand. Lastly, promote your website by talking to the priest or leaving a letter with the priest before each Mass so that he can give it voice. Make sure to focus on the mission and how it will be a simple and safe environment so the priest can be at ease. And invite the priests =).

 

[ChurchTorch]

Has the OP considered making a website for your diocesan EF movement or joining one if there is one already.

Having an internet site where updates and activities are announced can be a real boon. If you are starting from scratch, start small by having EF picnics at a park near the parish of the week. Ask everyone to bring something if they can since the group size won’t stabilize for a while. Also, if you can have a sign at the pinic, people would feel that they have a place. Since you need to travel around for EF, ask on the website for more ideas and if anyone has experience organizing group meetings. There are plenty of people who have done small groups growing up and could lend a hand. Lastly, promote your website by talking to the priest or leaving a letter with the priest before each Mass so that he can give it voice. Make sure to focus on the mission and how it will be a simple and safe environment so the priest can be at ease. And invite the priests =).

Excellent idea! Invite the priests and have them bless the food!

 

[jonpd]

I certainly wouldn’t want to attend Mass with people who refer to anyone as “NO parishioners.” That’s downright offensive and yes, it’s more than enough to make me avoid anyone who would do that…

I did not intend for “NO parishioners” to be offensive. After all I still attend NO Masses myself on occasion, I just prefer the TLM. Can you suggest a better term for parishioners that primarily attend the NO Mass?

P.S. When I posted this I had not read all of the following posts. I guess we are not allowed to use “Novus Ordo” anymore to describe the Mass of Pope Paul VI?

 

[larsont7]

I did not intend for “NO parishioners” to be offensive. After all I still attend NO Masses myself on occasion, I just prefer the TLM. Can you suggest a better term for parishioners that primarily attend the NO Mass?

P.S. When I posted this I had not read all of the following posts. I guess we are not allowed to use “Novus Ordo” anymore to describe the Mass of Pope Paul VI?

You’re not the only one confused about this. I have been using the term “Novus Ordo” for years and hear other people using the same term without any disrespect. I, too, attend the Novus Ordo (I guess now I should say OF) often, and even some who exclusively attend the OF call it the Novus Ordo to distinguish it from the Tridentine Mass (EF). Maybe now I should be careful using the term??

 

[Onegin]

Why are we continuously quoting a poster who is claiming that Rome NEVER referred to the OF as the “Novus Ordo”? Pope Paul VI himself has called it that! Because it is a Latin term you need only look at the Latin translation to see it used.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/speeches/1969/april/documents/hf_p-vi_spe_19690428_due-congregazioni_it.html

Any questions?

If the term “Novus Ordo” was good enough for Pope Paul VI, it’s good enough for me.
Quit trying to stir up controversy where there isn’t any. Thanks!

 

[CradleCath]

I did not intend for “NO parishioners” to be offensive. After all I still attend NO Masses myself on occasion, I just prefer the TLM. Can you suggest a better term for parishioners that primarily attend the NO Mass?

P.S. When I posted this I had not read all of the following posts. I guess we are not allowed to use “Novus Ordo” anymore to describe the Mass of Pope Paul VI?

Shhh. Don’t tell your priest that. He may still call it the Novus Ordo.
I know that mine does & my parish has many more NO masses than TLM’S.:tsktsk::

 

[larsont7]

I was thinking…

It appears that some Catholics who prefer the EF cannot understand and look down upon those who prefer the OF. That’s very wrong. I’m not sure the reverse exists in any large numbers.

There’s no doubt that what you say is true about some Catholics who attend the EF, but it’s certainly not true of all (or most, for that matter, from my experience). Having been brought into the Church with the EF almost 14 years ago, I’ve seen very few people who look down upon those who attend the OF (I prefer the EF, but attend both). Many look down upon the use of the liturgy itself, which can be debated at lengths and one which I am not going to start here, but not upon those who attend the OF. I think most of us realize we’re all sinners, and we’re all just doing our best to attain heavenly glory. Some believe the EF is the better road for them to do that, and others prefer the OF.

The one place you do see the EF and OF fighting and looking down upon each other is in message forums, and that is a sad fact that I hopefully doesn’t lead those souls searching for Truth away from the True Church of Christ.

 

[Malleus_01]

Whatever floats your boat. It’s not worth my while wasting more time on this.

Malleus: But if you will notice I used the “Mass of Paul the VI” in my post. I merely commented on the LATIN TERMS “Novus” and “Ordo” and what they mean in English. Now I am certain that either you or people like you will ignore whats actually said and instead try to read into it what you WANT it to say - and thus try to hijack the thread - but people have seen this tactic used ad nauseum so it will undoubtably fail.

The fact of the matter is - we come here to discuss TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM in the Traditional thread not to argue with modernists. But the Modernists go out of their way to come here and pick fights and arguments with us. The TRUTH is here for all of us to see isnt it. You do not see these posts by me appearing anywhere other than the Traditional Thread

But you modernists cannot say the same , can you.

Pax

 

[Dempsey1919]

This thread is for traditionalists who want to discuss ways they can foster a community spirit in EF communities. If you do not attend the EF Mass and have nothing helpful to say, could you please leave. The bickering and arguing does not achieve anything. You may not understand why some traditionalists feel isolated, but that does not give you the right to start criticising them for having those feelings.

…

Last Sunday, the number of people who attended EF Mass doubled! I don’t know where all these people came from, but it was great to see. We also have our first young altar boy. He’s about ten years old and he served his first Missa Cantata last week. His young teenage sisters also joined the Latin Mass choir. This proves that young people are interested in the Tridentine Mass!

I have realised that it doesn’t matter if we don’t engage in as many activities as the OF Mass attendees. The only thing that really matters is that we ensure that the EF Mass is well supported.

 

[Malleus_01]

Actually, no.

If they were dismissing the EF in a prejudicial manner then yes, of course but that’s just not happening. I just don’t think most Latin Rite Catholics have enough of an interest in the EF to investigate it deep enough to form an opinion about it one way or the other. They are happy with what they are doing now and they are going to stick with it. This is about being satisfied and happy with the OF and not about finding the EF to be “insignificant.” There is nothing wrong with that.

I think the belief that people in the Church including the hierarchy are “afraid” of the EF is absurd. I believe it’s more of an excuse than anything else. Yes we can fine isolated, anecdotal bit of information here and there that might support such a far-fetched notion but rarely do we hear about all the EFs that were started in dioceses around the world with the release of Summorum Pontificum.

Malleus: The same can be said of those devoted to the Mass of Paul the VI. I dont think Most of them have taken enough of an interest in the Tridentine Latin Mass and all of its components. I on the other hand , was baptised in 1956 and lived through the changes. So that argument doesnt fly with me. I went to the Modernist Church right up to 1981. It isnt a matter of preferance for me - its a matter of reverence. I saw a decline in reverence. Now we can argue for days on why that is. But that is why.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Do you think lay ministeries increase the level of fellowship among OF Catholics?

In the EF, lay members can either sing in the choir or the men/boys can serve at Mass. The priest is the most important figure and performs all of the actions involved in the Sacrifice. However, in the OF, lay persons often performs the roles previously performed by priests, for example, they distribute communion.

I am not saying that the EF Mass should permit lay readers or lay EMHC’s. I just think that the people involved in these ministries have more opportunity to attend parish meetings etc. Do you agree?

 

[Melchior_1]

The fact of the matter is - we come here to discuss TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM in the Traditional thread not to argue with modernists. But the Modernists go out of their way to come here and pick fights and arguments with us. The TRUTH is here for all of us to see isnt it. You do not see these posts by me appearing anywhere other than the Traditional Thread

Saying this is like if someone comes into your Church and wants to have a discussion with you about the differences between the EF and the OF. Will you act this way towards them in person? If so…man, you’re one uncharitable person. If not, well…I guess the Internet emboldens people towards uncharitable actions. I mean, it’s sad when all else fails, toss on a “modernist” label and informally call them trolls. With no regard to whether they have orthodox beliefs and revere both Scripture and Tradition (in the true rule of Faith sense). That’ll show’m how traditional Catholics do things!

While scanning through some post histories I see that in some cases the people complaining about feeling isolated rarely leave this section of CAF. You wonder why some of the posters in this thread say “try integrating yourself more in your community?”

This whole thread is sad on all fronts. Sad that people are isolating those who prefer the EF (not chartitable), sad that those who prefer the EF are isolating themselves (also not charitable). And especially sad that people are assuming “if you disagree you MUST be a “modernist” and be against us” (uncharitable).

 

[Malleus_01]

This thread is for traditionalists who want to discuss ways they can foster a community spirit in EF communities. If you do not attend the EF Mass and have nothing helpful to say, could you please leave. The bickering and arguing does not achieve anything. You may not understand why some traditionalists feel isolated, but that does not give you the right to start criticising them for having those feelings.

…

Last Sunday, the number of people who attended EF Mass doubled! I don’t know where all these people came from, but it was great to see. We also have our first young altar boy. He’s about ten years old and he served his first Missa Cantata last week. His young teenage sisters also joined the Latin Mass choir. This proves that young people are interested in the Tridentine Mass!

I have realised that it doesn’t matter if we don’t engage in as many activities as the OF Mass attendees. The only thing that really matters is that we ensure that the EF Mass is well supported.

Malleus: You bring up a great point. The Youth. If raised from a young age in Tradition like I was - it stays with you for life. Some Catholic hymns in Latin still come to mind that I sang when I was 8 or 9 and had no idea what I was singing. But as I grew and came to know what they meant - it cemented the Faith for me. And no one can say that the Latin Mass doesnt draw parishioners. The Church I go Mass attendance has tripled in the last ten years. And with Palm Sunday coming up - there will probably be people in the aisles. I makes me smile to think of these youngsters getting the priviledge to participate in the Latin Rites.

Pax

 

[Malleus_01]

Saying this is like if someone comes into your Church and wants to have a discussion with you about the differences between the EF and the OF. Will you act this way towards them in person? If so…man, you’re one uncharitable person. If not, well…I guess the Internet emboldens people towards uncharitable actions. I mean, it’s sad when all else fails, toss on a “modernist” label and informally call them trolls. With no regard to whether they have orthodox beliefs and revere both Scripture and Tradition (in the true rule of Faith sense). That’ll show’m how traditional Catholics do things!

Malleus: Well , Dempsey made the point already that the purpose of this Thread was to foster understanding between those who go to the Paul the VI and those who prefer the Latin Rites. I didnt enter the fray until I saw uncharitable comments being made in the direction of Traditional Catholics. As for your personal judgement of how charitable I am or am not - I’ll simply turn the other cheek to and respect his wishes. It would be my hope you would do the same. The title of this thread tells it all. Unles you have worshipped in a Traditional manner , especially in the 80’s and 90’s - then you dont know what its like to be marginalized and or subjugated. thats simply history. Why would so many traditional Catholics still today feel Isolated? Thats the subject matter. Hopefully you have come here to discuss that and not simply to attack me or feel you can bind my “sins” in public.

While scanning through some post histories I see that in some cases the people complaining about feeling isolated rarely leave this section of CAF. You wonder why some of the posters in this thread say “try integrating yourself more in your community?”

Malleus : So your answer seems to be - If you dont like being marginalized - then be more like we are. Isnt the entire point of worshipping in Tradition (Other than to Worship Almighty GOD ) to preserve Tradition? Or is the point to attempt to hybridize it. That seems to be what you are advocating. Are you saying the same must occur in the Eastern rites as well? We all have to bow to your methodology? That isnt the point. We should all have the latitude to Worship GOD According to our own conscience as guaranteed by Vatican II "DIGNITATIS HUMANAE " without coersion. It would seem that you prefer coersion. No , I think what Dempsey is attempting to foster is both understanding , acceptance and respect - not a requirement we change to accomodate you.

This whole thread is sad on all fronts. Sad that people are isolating those who prefer the EF (not chartitable), sad that those who prefer the EF are isolating themselves (also not charitable). And especially sad that people are assuming “if you disagree you MUST be a “modernist” and be against us” (uncharitable).

Malleus: This is what "DIGNITATIS HUMANAE " of Vatican II States : This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others, within due limits.

The council further declares that the right to religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person as this dignity is known through the revealed word of God and by reason itself.(2) This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the constitutional law whereby society is governed and thus it is to become a civil right.

It is in accordance with their dignity as persons-that is, beings endowed with reason and free will and therefore privileged to bear personal responsibility-that all men should be at once impelled by nature and also bound by a moral obligation to seek the truth, especially religious truth. They are also bound to adhere to the truth, once it is known, and to order their whole lives in accord with the demands of truth However, men cannot discharge these obligations in a manner in keeping with their own nature unless they enjoy immunity from external coercion as well as psychological freedom. Therefore the right to religious freedom has its foundation not in the subjective disposition of the person, but in his very nature. In consequence, the right to this immunity continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it and the exercise of this right is not to be impeded, provided that just public order be observed.

Malleus: Its about respecting Tradition - not expecting it to conform. With respect comes understanding. Not coersion.

pax

 

[ChurchTorch]

You’re not the only one confused about this. I have been using the term “Novus Ordo” for years and hear other people using the same term without any disrespect. I, too, attend the Novus Ordo (I guess now I should say OF) often, and even some who exclusively attend the OF call it the Novus Ordo to distinguish it from the Tridentine Mass (EF). Maybe now I should be careful using the term??

You’re confused. Very rarely do I hear “Novus Ordo” and certainly “NO” used by those who prefer the Mass of Pope Paul VI. Before the Pope gave us the definitions of OF and EF I most heard “Pauline Mass.”

I’m fairly certain the Pope anticipated all of this so he was extra careful in choosing OF and EF. Simple to use and unoffensive to all, yet some cannot stop taking little shots at the OF…

 

[ChurchTorch]

There’s no doubt that what you say is true about some Catholics who attend the EF, but it’s certainly not true of all (or most, for that matter, from my experience). Having been brought into the Church with the EF almost 14 years ago, I’ve seen very few people who look down upon those who attend the OF (I prefer the EF, but attend both). Many look down upon the use of the liturgy itself, which can be debated at lengths and one which I am not going to start here, but not upon those who attend the OF. I think most of us realize we’re all sinners, and we’re all just doing our best to attain heavenly glory. Some believe the EF is the better road for them to do that, and others prefer the OF.

The one place you do see the EF and OF fighting and looking down upon each other is in message forums, and that is a sad fact that I hopefully doesn’t lead those souls searching for Truth away from the True Church of Christ.

I think the great majority of those who attend the EF look down upon the OF Mass itself and they often do it in a very vocal manner to anyone who will listen. That’s extremely bad form. I don’t think most who attend the OF (a far larger number of course) really care about the EF one way or the other.

I have seen many, many people tear into the OF on this forum and others. I see far fewer tear into the EF and I find that interesting.

 

[jonpd]

Do you think lay ministeries increase the level of fellowship among OF Catholics?

In the EF, lay members can either sing in the choir or the men/boys can serve at Mass. The priest is the most important figure and performs all of the actions involved in the Sacrifice. However, in the OF, lay persons often performs the roles previously performed by priests, for example, they distribute communion.

I am not saying that the EF Mass should permit lay readers or lay EMHC’s. I just think that the people involved in these ministries have more opportunity to attend parish meetings etc. Do you agree?

I don’t know. I mean you are talking about maybe a dozen people max who might be EMHC’s at the various masses and maybe 3 or 4 lectors, not a huge percentage of the population. On the other hand in the EF Mass if it is a Missa Cantata or a High Mass you might have 7 or 8 altar boys/men whereas in the OF you often only have 2 unless it is a special occasion like Easter.

 

[ChurchTorch]

…The fact of the matter is - we come here to discuss TRADITIONAL CATHOLICISM in the Traditional thread not to argue with modernists…

Are you this offensive in real life? The “fact of the matter is” VERY traditionally-minded Catholics can have a great love for the Mass of Pope Pius VI. They might even prefer the OF to the EF.

Your “modernist” slur gives insight into why some reject “traditionalism.” Some use the behavior of people like you to stereotype the entire community. No wonder why some EF Masses have so few attendees.

 

[ChurchTorch]

…Malleus: Its about respecting Tradition - not expecting it to conform. With respect comes understanding. Not coersion.

pax

A very powerful posting. I don’t think I know anyone that intrinsically dislikes the EF. I know a great many that simply love the OF and feel in one way or the other that they need not experiment with other forms.

On the other hand if a given Mass community is riddled with people who incorrectly use slurs like “modernist” and “liberal” you can bet I’m going to keep my distance. Or I’m going to be in-and-out for the Mass and I am going to actively reject fellowship with such people.