Does Catholic rudeness keep you away from the Church?

[MDK]

Nothing like clarity.

Any thoughts on Catholic rudeness?

Expectantly,
Mick

Mick,

I propose that it’s personal, depending mostly on the one to whom the rudeness is exacted. Let’s please also consider genuine rudeness and nothing is added by exaggeration or imagination of the receiver.

In one instance, the person who is looking for truth of Christ and His Church, will realize the truths of Christ do not depend on others’ personal behavior, and tend to disregard poor personal behaviors, not letting this get in his or her way of knowing what Christ actually set up for us. I humbly admit to Catholics and non-Catholics that one of the least reasons to join the Catholic Church is the collective behavior of her members. The Church is Holy because of Christ, not dependent on the behaviors of the formal members of the Church. Many are indeed saintly people, but many are not. If one realizes it is a hospital for sinners as much as a museum of saints, they would do better in perspective.

The person who tends more to look around for a Church that makes him or her simply feel comfortable or looking for fellowship more so than Christ, or believing that Christians are perfect will be put off.

Nevertheless, I would argue that it would be better advertisement for the Church to have all the members behaving as the Church taught. They could be living witnesses to the beauty of Christ’s teachings.

 

[1holycatholic]

Does Catholic rudeness keep me away from the church? Yes! Along with Catholic arrogance.

“We have the one true Church Jesus founded through Peter, so your opinions don’t matter. You belong to a man-made church and will burn in hell. Your baptism is invalid. We gave you your bible!”

But pride is a disease that can easily be found among all people. We have protestants who call the Catholic church the ‘whore of babylon’, not realizing that the RCC being ‘the whore of babylon’ would automatically condemn protestantism as 'the children of the whore of babylon - and condemning everyone as apostates.

• Jesus did found one Church on Peter, the Catholic Church.
• The Bible proceeds from Catholic Church.
• Valid Baptism consists of proper form (I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) and matter (water.)

These are facts, not insults. :coffeeread:

 

[MDK]

I hope you won’t think me a rude Evangelical Protestant for saying so but the above is a long way from the main subject.

Any thoughts, opinions or even anecdotes about Catholic rudeness?

Unintrusively,
Mick

Actually, it is not at all far from the OP. It is answering the OP by example, which was intentional. Should we not live our faith? I see the effect of kindness and respect to another was not good for you… and it was not because of rudeness of a Catholic. Do you not respond well to kindness and decency to another by a Catholic? Is this a data point for the discussion?

 

[MDK]

…As to the natures of Christ. Again, why do you assume that someone decides on a whim? Can they not study and pray and read and listen extensively before coming to that conclusion? …

May I please ask why you assume that I assume? It was really a question, and not an analysis of one’s demonstrated behavior.

Studying and prayer are exactly what I recommend. I recommend that one study and rely on reliable sources and authority. Yogi Berra might say something like don’t rely on the unreliable. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[SSTeacher]

• Jesus did found one Church on Peter, the Catholic Church.
• The Bible proceeds from Catholic Church.
• Valid Baptism consists of proper form (I Baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) and matter (water.)

These are facts, not insults. :coffeeread:

With respect, the above are “facts” only when viewed through a Catholic filter. For those who do not accept them as stated, some qualification is required. That can be taken into account by referring to them as disputed facts.

There is no insult in putting forward what you perceive to be a fact provided that it is adduced in a courteous manner. This would come quite naturally if you first recognize that there are others who through no fault of their own do not share your assumptions and presuppositions and therefore do not reach the same conclusions as you do. I hope that makes sense?

D’you know any rude Catholic clergymen, by the way?

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[MDK]

When someone says they don’t believe that you have studied under Catholic theologians, they are in fact calling you a liar. That is far different from saying they don’t believe in my conclusions. That is fine.

I propose that “not believing one” and objectively calling them a “liar” have different definitions meanings and intentions. If one reads what was meant, then a very valid interpretation is that person’s experience with those who had done this, did not match what you displayed. I think the message was that your education from theologians was not genuinely Catholic without error. For instance, I know some departments of theology (too many) are really rampant with unorthodox teachings and outright anti-Catholic teachings. It’s very unfortunate. It is certain that you took it differently, as is your option in using your free will.

 

[SSTeacher]

Mick,

I propose that it’s personal, depending mostly on the one to whom the rudeness is exacted. Let’s please also consider genuine rudeness and nothing is added by exaggeration or imagination of the receiver.

In one instance, the person who is looking for truth of Christ and His Church, will realize the truths of Christ do not depend on others’ personal behavior, and tend to disregard poor personal behaviors, not letting this get in his or her way of knowing what Christ actually set up for us. I humbly admit to Catholics and non-Catholics that one of the least reasons to join the Catholic Church is the collective behavior of her members. The Church is Holy because of Christ, not dependent on the behaviors of the formal members of the Church. Many are indeed saintly people, but many are not. If one realizes it is a hospital for sinners as much as a museum of saints, they would do better in perspective.

The person who tends more to look around for a Church that makes him or her simply feel comfortable or looking for fellowship more so than Christ, or believing that Christians are perfect will be put off.

Nevertheless, I would argue that it would be better advertisement for the Church to have all the members behaving as the Church taught. They could be living witnesses to the beauty of Christ’s teachings.

MDK,

Thank you.

Gratefully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Actually, it is not at all far from the OP. It is answering the OP by example, which was intentional. Should we not live our faith? I see the effect of kindness and respect to another was not good for you… and it was not because of rudeness of a Catholic. Do you not respond well to kindness and decency to another by a Catholic? Is this a data point for the discussion?

All valid sentences and I undertake to give them the fullest and fairest consideration.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[1holycatholic]

The original poster said they pray “TO” Mary of the Catholic Church. I have never prayed to anyone other than God. The people I ask to pray on my behalf are alive on earth and they pray to God alone. There is no example of any Apostle or saint praying to… or for the dead on earth or the living in heaven; except Jesus. If you can, please provide an example.

You’re equating prayer only with worship. Prayer can be worship, or a request for assistance. When you ask people to pray for you, you are, in fact, praying to them.

Legal use:
brandeslaw.com/Legal_dictionary/legal.htm
PRAYER That portion of a pleading, at the end, which specifies the relief that is requested of the Court.

Idiomatic use:
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pray_tell
From **pray (“ask (politely)”) **+ tell (“explain”)

But how, pray tell, do you “notice” something that happens when you’re asleep?​

 

[MDK]

I disagree. That Peter was “assigned as head of the Church” is what you belief having been taught this by any number of sources: you personal interpretation of scripture, what the Church has informed you of through the Magisterium, or ECF or what you have learned through various theological statements. YOU have chosen to believe it. You may be right, but it is not the only interpretation or the only statement regarding this issue. There is truth, but neither of us will be sure what that is until we meet Peter. That is my only point. Neither position is subject to absolute proof, though both of us may be separately convinced beyond reasonable doubt that it has been proved to our satisfaction.

Can we please catch a deep breath? … … … Okay. This sentence you denied was not a statement of faith. In the most straight forward way I know, it means “whether or not Peter was assigned head of the Church does not depend on our beliefs.”

“That Peter was assigned as head of the Church (as in whether or not he was) is simply a matter of truth whether we believe or not (truth does not depend on our beliefs).”

I have no clue what you think you know about me, to state that I don’t understand that perfection of understanding is the standard set by Christ. It seems amazingly arrogant to say that I don’t know this!

The first two words were a good start, then it pretty much went off on an unrelated trail.

There were four ideas. First, you and I don’t see it the same. Second, God asks for both of us to seek perfection as the standard. Third, we must continue to seek to develop our understanding of the truth. Fourth, referring back to whether Peter was or was not the first head (of Prime Minister) of the Church, I don’t think you’re really there yet (personal opinion based on what you’ve written.)

I believe it was misunderstood due to a discussion not directly following a sentence but reflecting back to the statement of faith, after discussing the idea that we both continue to learn. The context of this for me includes that I have previously stated that I would adopt the truth immediately if found to differ from what I know. So, I don’t believe that is arrogant. I believe it is honest and open.

I agree, our journeys are continuous from birth to death. The wise person never stops inquiring and asking and studying and praying for God’s grace in understanding. I have come to change my mind on many things as I have progressed. Perhaps from my training in law, I have always abided by the legal concept of “listen, debate, and be not afraid to change your mind if you become convinced you are wrong. Yet never sacrifice what you completely believe simply for the sake of agreement with the majority.” I believe I have fairly lived by that and still do.

We must abide in Truth, otherwise we are lost. We must align our will with God, as that is the only true freedom. When we don’t, we are always a slave to something.

I’m not sure what you mean by “not there yet with Peter.” If that means, do I agree that Peter was commissioned to begin a church, then no, I don’t believe that Jesus meant that. I believe that the evangelist who wrote that did however. That is quite different. I would say that at one time I did, but deeper reading, studying and such have convinced me otherwise. This occurred long ago, when I was still an active RCC member. As I said, I learned this largely through the fine teaching of several Catholic theologians, but as well from a host of books written by Catholic and other Protestant experts. They may all be wrong in the end, but so far, I find their reasoning and explanation better than a literal reading of scripture.

Yes, I was differentiating my personal belief here. As for me, deeper reading and understanding has brought me to the place where I am confident that Christ did establish Peter as head of the Church. It flows so well with the rest of Scriptures. I have examined this thoroughly with Catholics, non-Catholics, and anti-Catholics. The objections have all been found flawed in one or more ways. So, nothing I have heard is able to refute this, and nothing else makes sense.

 

[1holycatholic]

With respect, the above are “facts” only when viewed through a Catholic filter. For those who do not accept them as stated, some qualification is required. That can be taken into account by referring to them as disputed facts.

There is no insult in putting forward what you perceive to be a fact provided that it is adduced in a courteous manner. This would come quite naturally if you first recognize that there are others who through no fault of their own do not share your assumptions and presuppositions and therefore do not reach the same conclusions as you do. I hope that makes sense?

D’you know any rude Catholic clergymen, by the way?

Ecumenically,
Mick

Those are objective historical facts. There are tremendous amounts of historical writings attesting to those facts.

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=early+church+fathers&x=0&y=0

amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=flavius+josephus&x=0&y=0

etc. etc. etc.

 

[MDK]

I fail to see the purpose of your remarks about my remarks about what Detales said. They made no reference to you whatsoever. If you dislike or somehow don’t agree with his remarks, then you should be making that case to him,not me. I found his remarks dead on.

May I please propose a different perspective?

Detales started his post with the words “Thanks, MDK, for helping to make this forum possible.” Then, the entire post was directed to me, including things intended to be personal, no doubt after reading my profile.

Your reply to Detales post reads “It is pleasant to have someone put into words so well what I have been trying unsuccessfully to say!”

I had responded directly to Detales in a previous post. Nevertheless, I thought appropriate to respond further and more simply. My response was to you both, and also anyone who reads it. Please don’t take it as being directed simply and only to you. My words were general in nature, and had no personal greeting to show it was intended for you alone.

 

[SSTeacher]

Does Catholic rudeness keep me away from the church? Yes! Along with Catholic arrogance.

“We have the one true Church Jesus founded through Peter, so your opinions don’t matter. You belong to a man-made church and will burn in hell. Your baptism is invalid. We gave you your bible!”

But pride is a disease that can easily be found among all people. We have protestants who call the Catholic church the ‘whore of babylon’, not realizing that the RCC being ‘the whore of babylon’ would automatically condemn protestantism as 'the children of the whore of babylon - and condemning everyone as apostates.

The notion of Protestants being “the children of the whore of Babylon” had never occurred to me. Unexpected thought. Thanks a lot.

The last time I visited a Catholic Church was some 16 years ago. I took my son, Joey, with me on a Sunday morning. After the Mass was ended we waited until most of the people had left intending to have a word with the priest. He had gone to the back of the church and was engaged in conversation with two elderly women. So we stepped to the side intending to wait until he had finished.

Suddenly, he turned toward us and asked me in a fairly irritated voice what I wanted. I told him that if he had any written material about Catholicism I’d be interested in buying it.

“Well, we haven’t,” he said somewhat brusquely and with a sneer turned back to the women and they continued where they’d left off.

Joey and I made our exit. As we walked out into the street Joey, who was about 15 years old at the time, said out loud exactly what I’d been thinking:

“Boy, he was rude!”

We never went back.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[rcandap]

What childish behavior. Are Catholic ushers generally known for their puerility or was this guy the exception rather than the rule?

Curiously,
Mick

Well I wouldn’t make a generalization about all ushers, lol. In fact at the parish we ended up joining, the ushers are very nice and helpful.

But on the other hand I don’t think this older guy’s attitude is necessarily the exception to the rule. I’ve known several like this. Reminds me of the guy from my hometown parish who “ruled” the KofC Hall and made life difficult for everyone who used it. Why?? I have no idea. I was very involved in a Protestant denomination for many years and would have not expected to find this type of behavior (though many theological issues, of course), and if someone had been a rep of the parish such as in this capacity and acted so badly, usually the pastor would have had something to say to him.

I think, to be fair, there is somewhat an aire of Catholic superiority that comes out more strongly in certain personalities. It’s misguided, but there nonetheless, in many people. It’s how they were raised.

 

[rosarygirl11]

Whenever I encounter a Catholic who is rude with me I like to recall in my mind that some of the most faithful saints were ridiculed or mistreated by fellow Catholics. Saint Faustina (or the Divine Mercy), if I remember correctly, was treated poorly by her fellow sisters in the convent, ridiculed and made to do many tasks. However, this did nothing to detour her from God. I cling to that whenever I feel put off by a fellow Catholic. I have been reading posts on here for years but was always hesitant to post because my initial posts were critiqued for grammar Sometimes it can be a slap in the face to be treated harshly by people who you share the faith with. However, I know it’s all too easy to use other Catholic’s actions as a way to turn away from the fullness that God is offering.

 

[MDK]

The notion of Protestants being “the children of the whore of Babylon” had never occurred to me. Unexpected thought. Thanks a lot.

The last time I visited a Catholic Church was some 16 years ago. I took my son, Joey, with me on a Sunday morning. After the Mass was ended we waited until most of the people had left intending to have a word with the priest. He had gone to the back of the church and was engaged in conversation with two elderly women. So we stepped to the side intending to wait until he had finished.

Suddenly, he turned toward us and asked me in a fairly irritated voice what I wanted. I told him that if he had any written material about Catholicism I’d be interested in buying it.

“Well, we haven’t,” he said somewhat brusquely and with a sneer turned back to the women and they continued where they’d left off.

Joey and I made our exit. As we walked out into the street Joey, who was about 15 years old at the time, said out loud exactly what I’d been thinking:

“Boy, he was rude!”

We never went back.

Respectfully,
Mick

Mick,

This is unfortunate for sure. We know that God built His Church, so it has His teachings, and is a Kingdom, not a democracy, nor would the holiness of Christ’s Church be dependent on the members. Is this behavior the result of following Catholic teaching, and full participation in the Sacraments? If this behavior is the fruit of true Catholicism, then stay away! If this behavior is not an example of Catholicism, then it may be wise to disregard. If this Church is really built by God, thousands of people with poor behavior could not keep me away. However, I have not had an experience like yours in a Catholic Church. Those who don’t regularly attend, will tend to support abortion, and anything they desire. Many of the Catholics I know who regularly attend mass, have a decent amount of grace and love, and better obey Christ. Those I see who attend adoration of Christ, generally have a deeper reverence.

 

[SSTeacher]

Well I wouldn’t make a generalization about all ushers, lol. In fact at the parish we ended up joining, the ushers are very nice and helpful.

But on the other hand I don’t think this older guy’s attitude is necessarily the exception to the rule. I’ve known several like this. Reminds me of the guy from my hometown parish who “ruled” the KofC Hall and made life difficult for everyone who used it. Why?? I have no idea. I was very involved in a Protestant denomination for many years and would have not expected to find this type of behavior (though many theological issues, of course), and if someone had been a rep of the parish such as in this capacity and acted so badly, usually the pastor would have had something to say to him.

I think, to be fair, there is somewhat an aire of Catholic superiority that comes out more strongly in certain personalities. It’s misguided, but there nonetheless, in many people. It’s how they were raised.

Thanks for responding.

By the way, did you ever see that episode of Everybody Loves Raymond wherein the focus is on Frank and his buddies ushering at the Catholic Church on Sunday morning? I thought back to that when I read your earlier post.

I enjoyed reading what you wrote. You should contribute more frequently.

In Christ,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Whenever I encounter a Catholic who is rude with me I like to recall in my mind that some of the most faithful saints were ridiculed or mistreated by fellow Catholics. Saint Faustina (or the Divine Mercy), if I remember correctly, was treated poorly by her fellow sisters in the convent, ridiculed and made to do many tasks. However, this did nothing to detour her from God. I cling to that whenever I feel put off by a fellow Catholic. I have been reading posts on here for years but was always hesitant to post because my initial posts were critiqued for grammar Sometimes it can be a slap in the face to be treated harshly by people who you share the faith with. However, I know it’s all too easy to use other Catholic’s actions as a way to turn away from the fullness that God is offering.

rosarygirl,

Thank you so much for your contribution. I cannot imagine why anybody would critique your grammar. Your post above is pleasantly worded, gentle in tone, nicely threaded and very thoughtful. I should like to encourage you to put forward your thoughts much more often than you have been doing.

Grace and peace,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Mick,

This is unfortunate for sure. We know that God built His Church, so it has His teachings, and is a Kingdom, not a democracy, nor would the holiness of Christ’s Church be dependent on the members. Is this behavior the result of following Catholic teaching, and full participation in the Sacraments? If this behavior is the fruit of true Catholicism, then stay away! If this behavior is not an example of Catholicism, then it may be wise to disregard. If this Church is really built by God, thousands of people with poor behavior could not keep me away. However, I have not had an experience like yours in a Catholic Church. Those who don’t regularly attend, will tend to support abortion, and anything they desire. Many of the Catholics I know who regularly attend mass, have a decent amount of grace and love, and better obey Christ. Those I see who attend adoration of Christ, generally have a deeper reverence.

MDK,

I can’t argue with anything that you’ve said above. I must confess that I’ve been putting off actually going to a Catholic church. Bit silly, really. Scared of being hugely disappointed again, I guess.

But I’m certainly grateful for your encouraging words.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Hesychios]

You write as though the Orthodox speak with one voice. They don’t. They aren’t even all in communion with each other.

Your argument has no validity because not all Roman Catholics speak with one voice. That is perfectly clear from reading the various forums here at CAF. Yet you have the temerity to cast that about as criticism of others…I think you are projecting.

Orthodox all believe the same theology (this is our voice), and are conservative by nature. Even in those occasions where Orthodox are not sharing in communion the reason is not over theology and has no bearing on the validity of their respective orders, sacraments or Saving work under Christ. Usually the source of the problem is political and not of a permanent nature, in fact not usually affecting the people in the pews who visit one another’s parishes without problems.

It normally prevents the bishops and priests from concelebrating. There are very few actual situations where this happens and it is a matter of intra-church discipline.