Does Christian virtue lead to happiness in this life?

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I did not vote because I believe many saints did their purgatory here in this world. Thus, they highly valued Christian virtues, even though they were anything but happy here in this world. This corresponds to my life as well.
 
If it’s done on earth than it’s not purgatory. I agree though that we can pay off for our sins on earth.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
If it’s done on earth than it’s not purgatory. I agree though that we can pay off for our sins on earth.
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It’s not a paying off of our sins, a debt owed, but the removal of the stain of past sins, to make pure again.
 
mytruepower2 said:
Mainly because it’s difficult to imagine this in practical terms, or to square it with certain desires that we often believe we have.

One good thing that we desire, for example, is victory, and at first it seems hard to see how this could be simply given by someone else, or given to someone else.

However, having thought about it for a few seconds, the vast majority of victories are not, in fact, due to our own efforts mainly, but are the result of our circumstances, or the abilities that we’ve been given, or the opportunities we’ve had in the past, or even the result of other people who agree to work with us. The victories of the American and British forces under General Eisenhower at the Battle of the Bulge, for example, wasn’t mainly because of his efforts, but because his men and his generals had responded to his actions and agreed to help him. Most victories are like this; impossible without external circumstances to back them up.

Still, it’s hard to think this way about victory without delving into abstractions, which is what makes it more acceptable than it would have seemed otherwise.
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I agree that life is too complex to generalise about particular events but selfish people are more likely to be dissatisfied because they are concerned about what they have and don’t have. In other words they think about themselves too much - which is not a recipe for happiness!
 
Yes. Just think about what society is doing as presented by the media as OK or No Big Deal.

Christian virtue, which is supplied through our cooperation with God’s will, is practical.
  1. Look at movies. What kind of behaviors do the actors model? By the grace of God, I don’t think the following are good or neutral: fornication, cohabitation, going to strip clubs, getting so drunk I’m falling on the floor or crawling to my car, or smoking dope, or, for those married Christians, committing adultery, or believing “I can’t control my sexual urges so me and/or my spouse have to use artificial contraception.” Or going to prostitutes.
  2. There is a Sexually Transmitted Disease epidemic in this country. The CDC will tell you that. There are those who will risk getting HIV/AIDS to get some temporary pleasure.
  3. There is nothing wrong with having a modest amount of things you like. Or having a hobby. Or collecting things. But there need to be limits, not “no limits.”
  4. Serving God means being more like Christ. Polite, understanding, willing to help, willing to listen, willing to take the time to do something that may cut into your plans. No, I’m not suggesting we not do things we know we have to do to help others, just that we should let others know we’re there for them. Christian or not. And arrange our time so that we can have that talk or help somebody else.
  5. The poor. That is Jesus holding that cardboard sign on that street corner.
  6. Jesus prayed so we need to pray. Pray for others. Thank God. Our relationship with God includes action and prayer.
  7. Suffering. Two years ago, I was in very bad shape. I got the Anointing of the Sick. Recovery was not easy but we are taught, as I heard a priest on Catholic radio say, to use that time to get closer to God. I prayed daily for recovery and while I was in treatment, all I asked for was the strength to get through the day. And even though I was limited in some ways for a long time, I learned that accepting it was serving God’s will for me. The Bible tells us that trials will come, but God is there for us - always.
So, by avoiding bad behaviors and replacing them with good behaviors means that we will not do certain things that are sinful, and some that are just a waste of time or could harm our health or even get us into trouble with the law.

It was called good, clean living. It works. And I’ve found plenty of fun things to do that don’t involve what the media tells people is not sinful or immoral. The first step is realizing how wrong they are. How dysfunctional living will not make you happy.

I’m happy. God has put me somewhere where I can do things that are uplifting. Yes, I’m a sinner but my number one goal is to be like Him and to live with Him.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Yes. Just think about what society is doing as presented by the media as OK or No Big Deal.

Christian virtue, which is supplied through our cooperation with God’s will, is practical.
  1. Look at movies. What kind of behaviors do the actors model? By the grace of God, I don’t think the following are good or neutral: fornication, cohabitation, going to strip clubs, getting so drunk I’m falling on the floor or crawling to my car, or smoking dope, or, for those married Christians, committing adultery, or believing “I can’t control my sexual urges so me and/or my spouse have to use artificial contraception.” Or going to prostitutes.
  2. There is a Sexually Transmitted Disease epidemic in this country. The CDC will tell you that. There are those who will risk getting HIV/AIDS to get some temporary pleasure.
  3. There is nothing wrong with having a modest amount of things you like. Or having a hobby. Or collecting things. But there need to be limits, not “no limits.”
  4. Serving God means being more like Christ. Polite, understanding, willing to help, willing to listen, willing to take the time to do something that may cut into your plans. No, I’m not suggesting we not do things we know we have to do to help others, just that we should let others know we’re there for them. Christian or not. And arrange our time so that we can have that talk or help somebody else.
  5. The poor. That is Jesus holding that cardboard sign on that street corner.
  6. Jesus prayed so we need to pray. Pray for others. Thank God. Our relationship with God includes action and prayer.
  7. Suffering. Two years ago, I was in very bad shape. I got the Anointing of the Sick. Recovery was not easy but we are taught, as I heard a priest on Catholic radio say, to use that time to get closer to God. I prayed daily for recovery and while I was in treatment, all I asked for was the strength to get through the day. And even though I was limited in some ways for a long time, I learned that accepting it was serving God’s will for me. The Bible tells us that trials will come, but God is there for us - always.
So, by avoiding bad behaviors and replacing them with good behaviors means that we will not do certain things that are sinful, and some that are just a waste of time or could harm our health or even get us into trouble with the law.

It was called good, clean living. It works. And I’ve found plenty of fun things to do that don’t involve what the media tells people is not sinful or immoral. The first step is realizing how wrong they are. How dysfunctional living will not make you happy.

I’m happy. God has put me somewhere where I can do things that are uplifting. Yes, I’m a sinner but my number one goal is to be like Him and to live with Him.
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An excellent post, Ed. As Beethoven said, from the heart to the heart… 🙂
 
Robert Sock:
It’s not a paying off of our sins, a debt owed, but the removal of the stain of past sins, to make pure again.
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You remove the stain of past sins by compensating for them. Purgatory is a place where the dead can do that. Earth is a place where the living can do it.
 
tonyrey said:
I agree that life is too complex to generalise about particular events but selfish people are more likely to be dissatisfied because they are concerned about what they have and don’t have. In other words they think about themselves too much - which is not a recipe for happiness!
Click to expand...
I’m not convinced that this is the problem, because that’s not what Jesus taught.

Aside from doctrine about the sacraments and so on, and reinforcing the moral doctrines of the Old Testament, most of Jesus’ teachings can be effectively summed up by his parables and the beatitudes, and none of them, even if stretched, implies “thou shalt not think about this or that.”

What Jesus does talk about is our actions; our choices. He says that we need to agape (show full charity towards) God first, and others second. But these are not a form of psychological conditioning, intended to change the kind of people we are. They’re commandments, and we follow them as any good soldier would, even if he can’t stand his commanding officer.

I’m of the view that a man can reach paradise through obedience and recognition of his own status as an imperfect being, even if he doesn’t agree at all with Christian values in his heart of hearts. So long as his actions are still governed by them (and agape clearly implies a form of action,) he’ll be willing to accept the gifts that God has to give.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
You remove the stain of past sins by compensating for them. Purgatory is a place where the dead can do that. Earth is a place where the living can do it.
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I disagree. God never wants us to owe a debt for our sins, but all He wants is for us to become pure again. Purgatory is an active process of purification.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I disagree. God never wants us to owe a debt for our sins, but all He wants is for us to become pure again. Purgatory is an active process of purification.
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God doesn’t want us to incur penalties by sinning; we just do.

Each mortal sin incurs two kinds of penalties; an eternal penalty and a temporal penalty. The eternal penalty is removed from us when the priest says the words of absolution after we make a good confession.

The temporal penalty is the purpose of Purgatory, but of course, it’s easier to remove while you’re on Earth.

There are many ways to get what the church calls “a plenary indulgence,” which does just that, some of which require only thirty minutes (or less) of time to complete. Look it up.
 
mytruepower2 said:
I’m not convinced that this is the problem, because that’s not what Jesus taught.

Aside from doctrine about the sacraments and so on, and reinforcing the moral doctrines of the Old Testament, most of Jesus’ teachings can be effectively summed up by his parables and the beatitudes, and none of them, even if stretched, implies “thou shalt not think about this or that.”

What Jesus does talk about is our actions; our choices. He says that we need to agape (show full charity towards) God first, and others second. But these are not a form of psychological conditioning, intended to change the kind of people we are. They’re commandments, and we follow them as any good soldier would, even if he can’t stand his commanding officer.

I’m of the view that a man can reach paradise through obedience and recognition of his own status as an imperfect being, even if he doesn’t agree at all with Christian values in his heart of hearts. So long as his actions are still governed by them (and agape clearly implies a form of action,) he’ll be willing to accept the gifts that God has to give.
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Jesus told us to think about the needs of others, which is hardly possible if we spend most of our time thinking about ourselves… Love implies that we forget ourselves and identify with those we love. John Keats summed it up with his theory of “negative capability”. Although he was thinking of the poet it also applies to the lover who forgets he exists because he is totally absorbed by the object of his love.

Jesus told us the truth makes free. Love also makes us free: we become liberated from the slavery to ourselves which is the high road to the misery of hell. The ecstasy of the saints is clear evidence that virtue can lead to a foretaste of the joy of heaven even in this world.
 
tonyrey said:
Jesus told us to think about the needs of others, which is hardly possible if we spend most of our time thinking about ourselves…
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When did Jesus say any of that? He told us to exercise charity, but I don’t remember “thinking about the needs of others” being part of it.
tonyrey said:
Love implies that we forget ourselves and identify with those we love.
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Right, but as I said, Jesus didn’t talk about “love.” The word “love” wasn’t invented for almost another 400 years. The Greek word is “agape,” corresponding to the Latin “caritas,” which is closer to the English word “charity,” than “love.”

Secondly, no. That’s not what it implies. “Charity” is a type of action, which doesn’t imply that you identify with anyone. It’s just about doing things that are good for the person, intending for them to be truly benefited by it. As for “love,” that often refers to a selfish, grasping, self-serving motive, where the other person is almost incidental, such as in the phrase “we had to get a divorce because I didn’t love her anymore.”
tonyrey said:
John Keats summed it up with his theory of “negative capability”. Although he was thinking of the poet it also applies to the lover who forgets he exists because he is totally absorbed by the object of his love.
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I’ve never read Keats. Is he a philosopher?
tonyrey said:
Jesus told us the truth makes free. Love also makes us free: we become liberated from the slavery to ourselves which is the high road to the misery of hell. The ecstasy of the saints is clear evidence that virtue can lead to a foretaste of the joy of heaven even in this world.
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None of this is explicit in the accounts of Jesus that we have. In fact, he seems to refute your last sentence when he talks about how, if he suffered persecution, we should expect nothing less.
 
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mytruepower2:
I’m of the view that a man can reach paradise through obedience and recognition of his own status as an imperfect being, even if he doesn’t agree at all with Christian values in his heart of hearts.
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It depends on what you mean by “agree”. If you mean an intellectual disagreement, then you are wrong. Otherwise, you are correct.
Robert Sock:
I disagree. God never wants us to owe a debt for our sins, but all He wants is for us to become pure again. Purgatory is an active process of purification.
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God’s lack of desire for us to sin is beside the point.
 
Robert_Sock said:
I disagree. God never wants us to owe a debt for our sins, but all He wants is for us to become pure again. Purgatory is an active process of purification.
Click to expand...
Mr Sock is correct here. We can never “pay” for our own sins in any sense: God nailed them to the cross once and for all. The Roman Catholic church believes that the punishment due to sin remains after the guilt has been forgiven (by being chosen by Christ/appropriating the sacrifice of Christ), and that we must suffer this punishment - although there is absolutely no guilt remaining - until we have been “purified” of the sin (in some mystical way which is greater than being forgiven the guilt). For this to make any sense at all, you must hold exactly the same view of the atonement as Anselm did as laid out in Cur deus homo and elucidated by Thomas Aquinas in the Summa theologiae (the “traditional satisfactionary theory”), which separates guilt from punishment. (No other theory, such as penal substitution, or moral influence, or Christus victor, allows for a separation of guilt and punishment).

In the RCC, those who complete their purgation on earth are Saints with a capital “S”.
 
SentinelofTruth said:
It depends on what you mean by “agree”. If you mean an intellectual disagreement, then you are wrong. Otherwise, you are correct.
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A certain degree of intellectual assent is required in order for the person to decide to order their will to the values, and in that I agree.

When I said “agree,” I was referring to the person’s disposition towards those values. If he finds them, for example, wretched or detestable, yet still recognizes, due to the authority of the Catholic Church, that there must be some truth to them, he may be admitted into eternal salvation, even though he personally despises the things that he must do to get there.
 
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