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mark_a
Guest
Lemme have it!!!
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elvisman
Guest
No.
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stbruno
Guest
I would say “no” and this is why.
The Church defines Purgatory as:"a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven." (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] Page 896).
During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther initially accepted the belief in Purgatory. In 1519 he said that its existence was undeniable. By 1530 he had changed his mind; he said that Purgatory could not be proven to exist from biblical passages. Later that year he rejected the concept of Purgatory entirely. Since that time, all Protestant denominations have not taught belief in Purgatory.
However, The Roman Catholic church teaches that a “Particular Judgment” happens immediately at death. (This is different from the *General *Judgment that everyone will undergo on the “last day.”) The “souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven.” Souls spend time in Purgatory until fully cleansed of the temporal consequences of sin.
The Church, drawing on Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, is able to grant its members absolution for their sins. At that point, the sins no longer have *eternal *consequences; that is, the transgression does not cause the perpetrator to be relegated to Hell for all eternity after their death. It does not prevent them from attaining heaven eventually. But there are often temporal consequences to sin. Jesus may have forgiven the individual for their transgression, but they may have harmed others. These temporal consequences have to be paid for. One requires cleansing before being allowed into Heaven. Such cleansing is the function of Purgatory.
Purgatory will be terminated for everyone at the time of the final general judgment of humanity. It would also end for an individual when they have been purified to the point where they can be admitted to heaven. This implies that two individuals with the same “sin load” – one who died centuries before the general judgment, and another who died just before the judgment – would spend a different length of time being purged of their temporal consequences of their sins. Also, those who have more living friends and family on Earth who pray for the fate of the deceased will presumably be released sooner than those who have no friends or family.
The intensity and duration of the torment can be reduced by good works by the living, if they offer Masses, prayers “and other acts of piety and devotion.”
The Church defines Purgatory as:"a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven." (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC] Page 896).
During the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther initially accepted the belief in Purgatory. In 1519 he said that its existence was undeniable. By 1530 he had changed his mind; he said that Purgatory could not be proven to exist from biblical passages. Later that year he rejected the concept of Purgatory entirely. Since that time, all Protestant denominations have not taught belief in Purgatory.
However, The Roman Catholic church teaches that a “Particular Judgment” happens immediately at death. (This is different from the *General *Judgment that everyone will undergo on the “last day.”) The “souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven.” Souls spend time in Purgatory until fully cleansed of the temporal consequences of sin.
The Church, drawing on Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, is able to grant its members absolution for their sins. At that point, the sins no longer have *eternal *consequences; that is, the transgression does not cause the perpetrator to be relegated to Hell for all eternity after their death. It does not prevent them from attaining heaven eventually. But there are often temporal consequences to sin. Jesus may have forgiven the individual for their transgression, but they may have harmed others. These temporal consequences have to be paid for. One requires cleansing before being allowed into Heaven. Such cleansing is the function of Purgatory.
Purgatory will be terminated for everyone at the time of the final general judgment of humanity. It would also end for an individual when they have been purified to the point where they can be admitted to heaven. This implies that two individuals with the same “sin load” – one who died centuries before the general judgment, and another who died just before the judgment – would spend a different length of time being purged of their temporal consequences of their sins. Also, those who have more living friends and family on Earth who pray for the fate of the deceased will presumably be released sooner than those who have no friends or family.
The intensity and duration of the torment can be reduced by good works by the living, if they offer Masses, prayers “and other acts of piety and devotion.”
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mark_a
Guest
Any non-Catholic ideas?
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ACbishop
Guest
We do believe that a person continues on after death in their progression toward heaven in a state that may be thought of as purgatory but not in the sense that further purification is needed. The sacrifice of Christ for our sins is sufficient for our full forgiveness according to scripture so further purification is a mute point.
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Genesis315
Guest
It may. I read a book a while back by St. Robert Bellarmine which discussed how repentent convicted criminals sentenced to death can have some or all of their temporal punishment remitted by bearing the pains of their execution.
In general, suffering through the pains of this life (and the throws of death) is sanctiying in the same way Purgatory is–purgatory finishes up any sanctification that is left to finish up after this life.
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PaulDupre
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ACbishop
Guest
Somewhere between here and heaven. Beyond that concept, I have no clear idea. It is very similar to the Catholic idea of purgatory but leaving the purification part out of the equation.
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mark_a
Guest
“I have no clear idea” is a good enough answer for me.
I’m not sure the Catholic Church has a really clear idea either of “somewhere between here and heaven”.
It’s just that we have a name for it and some idea of what might take place there.
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Genesis315
Guest
Here is the dogmatic teaching on Purgatory–it’s very general:
Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (this short constitution defines almost everything we know regarding the afterlife)
**Council of Florence, **Laetentur Caeli: Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.
Council of Trent, Decree Concerning Purgatory: Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ.
Pope Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (this short constitution defines almost everything we know regarding the afterlife)
**Council of Florence, **Laetentur Caeli: Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.
Council of Trent, Decree Concerning Purgatory: Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ.
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ACbishop
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This is why I ended up leaving the Catholic church. I just don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and then claim that the holy spirit bestowed it upon them. I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I became an Episcopalian and a happy and devout one at that.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
LOL
I like your post !!Anyway, doesnt Paul say to be absent of the body is to be present with Christ(paraphrasing of course).
That doesnt seem to leave any room for anywhere except heaven.
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mark_a
Guest
Purgatory to me is common sense. I just don’t think its possible that a sinner like me will be rubbing elbows with the likes of Billy Graham as soon as I breath my last.LOL
Anyway, doesnt Paul say to be absent of the body is to be present with Christ(paraphrasing of course).
That doesnt seem to leave any room for anywhere except heaven.
I think I’ve given to you implicit biblical evidence for purgatory before. I take it you weren’t impressed.
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mark_a
Guest
No council at all? The most important work of the Church has been done by councils.
Councils also re-affirm truths being challenged by Luther, Hank, Arius, Nestorius, or whoever.
Purgatory, although it was a used as a money maker for the Church during some awful times, reinforces that God is love and justice.
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wgholland
Guest
Well I also believe in purgatory from the standpoint that each of us as sinners, can potentially die in a state of sin (hopefully not mortal sin). So that there is a place where I can atone for my sinfulness (let’s face it there are character flaws remaining unchanged) is a good thing for me to know.
It is a purification place right?? BUT to your question…I have been wondering lately if some of the suffering occurring in people’s lives leading up to death, is part of that purgatorial time. Does that make sense? Some people suffer so before death. Seemingly some people probably make some change in their hearts while others will remain stoic to the end. And EVEN then, we do not know the extent of His mercy. I am NOT saying that suffering is punishment b/c it isn’t- suffering has so many purposes but Jesus never said we wouldn’t suffer.
I think a bigger and better question is the existence of hell!! I don’t think people really believe that hell exists. Our culture would like to believe b/c I think the enemy persists to disguise evil as ‘not so bad’ or acceptable. It slowly eekks into our lives as normal. I hear people say they don’t really think God would do that if He is a loving God…but God is a gentleman and the agreement is live My way, honor Me, be love or live eternally as you lived, separate from God.
Not to change the dialogue sorry…God bless you in your quest.
It is a purification place right?? BUT to your question…I have been wondering lately if some of the suffering occurring in people’s lives leading up to death, is part of that purgatorial time. Does that make sense? Some people suffer so before death. Seemingly some people probably make some change in their hearts while others will remain stoic to the end. And EVEN then, we do not know the extent of His mercy. I am NOT saying that suffering is punishment b/c it isn’t- suffering has so many purposes but Jesus never said we wouldn’t suffer.
I think a bigger and better question is the existence of hell!! I don’t think people really believe that hell exists. Our culture would like to believe b/c I think the enemy persists to disguise evil as ‘not so bad’ or acceptable. It slowly eekks into our lives as normal. I hear people say they don’t really think God would do that if He is a loving God…but God is a gentleman and the agreement is live My way, honor Me, be love or live eternally as you lived, separate from God.
Not to change the dialogue sorry…God bless you in your quest.
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wgholland
Guest
Wow I must apologize, I didn’t know I was in Non-Catholic religions, so ya’ll prob don’t care what I think. Sorry for that oversight.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Did you give it here on this thread? Maybe I missed it but that is ok I have read the catholic stance on it and no sorry I wasnt impressed or should I say convinced.
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PaulDupre
Guest
That makes very good sense. The Church acknowledges that some people suffer greatly in this life, and if that suffering is born patiently and offered to Jesus in reparation for the temporal consequences of our sins, then it will indeed reduce the amount of time spent in purgatory.
Note: only Jesus atoned for our sinfulness, but through patient suffering we can resolve the temporal consequences of that sinfulness. I’m sure that’s what you meant.
God bless you,
Paul
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Genesis315
Guest
Those Councils manufactured Purgatory like the Council of Nicea manufactured the Divinity of Christ. Of course, Episcopalians have no problem pulling things out of thin air, like the ordaining women and approving of homosexual unions.
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st_lucy
Guest
Well, if you don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and than claim that the Holy Spirit bestowed it upon them, than what makes your truths more worthy than the councils? I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I am a Catholic and a happy devout one at that.
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