Does death purify a person and eliminate the need for purgatory?

[ACbishop]

Well, if you don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and than claim that the Holy Spirit bestowed it upon them, than what makes your truths more worthy than the councils? I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I am a Catholic and a happy devout one at that.

I take your mocking in stride. The problem herein lies that beyond scripture, what support do you have to show truth? Surely you don’t think that you can convince a great majority of folks that the truth just came to a council because they claimed that the holy spirit just decided to give it to them and nobody else.

 

[Sixtus]

I will not need to be sent, I will go there of my OWN volition…and refuse to leave until the last penny has been paid

 

[Sixtus]

I suppose it depends on the type of death,. No doubt those who die for their faith, their sufferings will be expedient. No doubt too, some who have suffered greately in this life.

 

[ACbishop]

Those Councils manufactured Purgatory like the Council of Nicea manufactured the Divinity of Christ. Of course, Episcopalians have no problem pulling things out of thin air, like the ordaining women and approving of homosexual unions.

I guess then my question to you is where exactly does Purgatory come from?? It certainly isn’t scriptural as it is disproven by several verses. One that comes to mind is when the thief professes to Jesus on the cross that he is dying justly for all of his wrongdoing but Jesus did nothing to deserve death and Jesus assured him that today he would be in paradise with him. Jesus didn’t say that he would have to go to purgatory until someone said enough prayers to get him out or purchased enough indulgences to be dispensed upon him.

 

[ACbishop]

Those Councils manufactured Purgatory like the Council of Nicea manufactured the Divinity of Christ. Of course, Episcopalians have no problem pulling things out of thin air, like the ordaining women and approving of homosexual unions.

Not all Episcopalians approve of same sex unions. You would have a better chance of my priest walking on his ears than you would getting him to perform rites of a same sex blessing.

 

[wgholland]

Mr. PaulDupre was correct in pointing out in no way did I mean to suggest that we can atone for our sins…not possible I know. Jesus already so lovingly did that for us. But those temporal effects as you mentioned yes.

I have been led strongly to pray for those in Purgatory over the past six months or so. I can only hope someone is praying for us when we are there. There is suffering in Purgatory, great suffering for souls who are forever God’s but cannot be with Him yet. It is cleansing suffering yes and for that I am grateful and will endure it but hope with His mercy to minimize my time spent there if possible.

I’m still of the opinion that most of our protestant co-believers should hope there is a purgatory b/c not many of us is pure enough to get into heaven straight away.

I have an even bigger question. What do non-Catholics believe will send you to hell?? Is it just you have to be baptized?? Or does the quality of your life affect your eternal disposition ever?? Can u be a rotten SOB to everyone, but believe in Jesus and so go to heaven?? Not possible, the bible says if you have hate for a brother, then you cannot love God. If you treat people poorly, doesn’t that qualify as the opposite of love well that would be opposite of heaven no?? I think the whole thing goes back to the acceptance of salvation, Catholics believe it is a life-long process, not a one-time event.

I just recently heard Ray Guarendi say the new atheism is the idea that ‘I’ know what is acceptable to God. He said that is a shrewd disguise of idolatry.

 

[holy_wood]

**I guess then my question to you is where exactly does Purgatory come from?? It certainly isn’t scriptural as it is disproven by several verses. **

No Proof

A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. **So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory. **

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. **These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin. **Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory.

 

[holy_wood]

II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[holy_wood]

**Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory**

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me…faithful writings…These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190).

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).

“[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep.” Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

“Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished.” Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

 

[ACbishop]

I must say wow and thank you for pointing all of those out to me. This is the most convincing information that I have seen all compiled from scripture on the subject of purgatory. This is the closest I have ever been to being convinced that there really is a place of purification after our earthly death.

 

[holy_wood]

I must say wow and thank you for pointing all of those out to me. This is the most convincing information that I have seen all compiled from scripture on the subject of purgatory. This is the closest I have ever been to being convinced that there really is a place of purification after our earthly death.

Your welcome, but being an honest Catholic I must confess that the information was cut and pasted from www.scripturecatholic.com]

Check it out it has alot of other explanations of why us Catholics believe and do the things we do and where it is rooted in scripture (i.e. Praying to the Saints, Belief in the Eucharist, Priestly Ordination, Confession, The Immaculate Conception, ect…)

I’m only 18 and even though I believed in God I always doubted why my church did or believed in the things we do. I just believed my friends when they said something The Church taught wasn’t in scripture.

The site above helped me out alot. I’m pretty sure you have read many of those verses before but never connected them to the Catholic belief in Purgatory (like me at first).

God bless.

 

[ACbishop]

Your welcome, but being an honest Catholic I must confess that the information was cut and pasted from www.scripturecatholic.com]

Check it out it has alot of other explanations of why us Catholics believe and do the things we do and where it is rooted in scripture (i.e. Praying to the Saints, Belief in the Eucharist, Priestly Ordination, Confession, The Immaculate Conception, ect…)

I’m only 18 and even though I believed in God I always doubted why my church did or believed in the things we do. I just believed my friends when they said something The Church taught wasn’t in scripture.

The site above helped me out alot. I’m pretty sure you have read many of those verses before but never connected them to the Catholic belief in Purgatory (like me at first).

God bless.

I have to say that I can’t imagine that you are only 18! What you have presented here is the most convincing info. that I have ever seen on here compiled in support of purgatory as a place of purification. I am an ex-cradle Catholic turned Episcopalian about 3 years ago. I left the church because I couldn’t fathom the sincerity of papal infallibility and the idea of the magisterium interpretting scripture for the faithful who must accept it as the only interpretation of scripture. I also really had a problem with the adoration of Mary for most of my life. As a CCD student at about age 12, I refused to be a part of the May crowning. In looking back, I can’t believe that I didn’t leave the church before I actually did. If I wouldn’t have found the Episcopal church, I am certain that I would have just stopped attending church altogether.

ACbishop

 

[hosemonkey]

“This is why I ended up leaving the Catholic church. I just don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and then claim that the holy spirit bestowed it upon them. I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I became an Episcopalian and a happy and devout one at that.”

In all charity, given the state of the Episcopal Church right now, I would say the you need to really examine those early councils and get back on track. The Episcopal Church is imploding because your “leadership” has appearently forgotten the teachings of those authoritative councils. Their interpretations and guidance were not pulled from thin air but were arrived at by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.It was not until arrogant and sinful men (Henry VIII and Luther) gave way to their own passions and lusts that these council’s deliberations were called into question. The Catholic Church does not teach some truth, She teaches ALL truth.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

St Lucy:

Well, if you don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and than claim that the Holy Spirit bestowed it upon them, than what makes your truths more worthy than the councils?

ACbishop:

I take your mocking in stride.

You haven’t answered St Lucy’s question. Accusing her (wrongfully) of mockery is not an answer.

What makes your truths more worthy than the councils?

ACbishop:

The problem herein lies that beyond scripture, what support do you have to show truth?

What makes your interpretation of Scripture more worthy than that of the councils?

ACbishop:

Surely you don’t think that you can convince a great majority of folks that the truth just came to a council because they claimed that the holy spirit just decided to give it to them and nobody else.

What makes your claim to Revelation more valid than the claim of the councils?

 

[ACbishop]

“This is why I ended up leaving the Catholic church. I just don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and then claim that the holy spirit bestowed it upon them. I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I became an Episcopalian and a happy and devout one at that.”

In all charity, given the state of the Episcopal Church right now, I would say the you need to really examine those early councils and get back on track. The Episcopal Church is imploding because your “leadership” has appearently forgotten the teachings of those authoritative councils. Their interpretations and guidance were not pulled from thin air but were arrived at by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.It was not until arrogant and sinful men (Henry VIII and Luther) gave way to their own passions and lusts that these council’s deliberations were called into question. The Catholic Church does not teach some truth, She teaches ALL truth.

When you say that the Episcopal church is imploding, that may be so, but the Anglican communion worldwide is strong and well because it does teach the truths that many in the national church are rebuking. My priest happens to be one that is keeping our parish firm to the teachings of the Anglican church. Many of our teachings are the same or similar to yours. As far as coming back to the Catholic church, no thanks. Unlike yourself, I believe that King Henry, Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer had just cause to break away from a sinful church of its time to bring real Christianity back to its roots that Jesus had set fourth. Never have I ever felt closer to God and to his wisdom than I have since joining the Episcopal church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

When you say that the Episcopal church is imploding, that may be so, but the Anglican communion worldwide is strong and well because it does teach the truths that many in the national church are rebuking. My priest happens to be one that is keeping our parish firm to the teachings of the Anglican church. Many of our teachings are the same or similar to yours. As far as coming back to the Catholic church, no thanks. Unlike yourself, I believe that King Henry, Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer had just cause to break away from a sinful church of its time to bring real Christianity back to its roots that Jesus had set fourth. Never have I ever felt closer to God and to his wisdom than I have since joining the Episcopal church.

I think it is only the american episcopal church that is imploding. Are you from another country? Or are you from one of the episcopal churches that does not condone what the american episcopal churches are doing?

Just a disclaimer–I was born and raised epicopalian and my grandfather was an episcopal minister:thumbsup: I go to a non-denom now.

 

[ACbishop]

I think it is only the american episcopal church that is imploding. Are you from another country? Or are you from one of the episcopal churches that does not condone what the american episcopal churches are doing?

Just a disclaimer–I was born and raised epicopalian and my grandfather was an episcopal minister:thumbsup: I go to a non-denom now.

Our parish is one that opposes the whole idea that the American Episcopal church is thwarting the demands of the Windsor Report. If you are unfamiliar with it, it is simply a call for the Episcopal Church USA to come back under the teachings and Canons of the Anglican communion.

 

[holy_wood]

“This is why I ended up leaving the Catholic church. I just don’t believe that councils and such can manufacture truths and then claim that the holy spirit bestowed it upon them. I don’t mean to be rude, I am just stating why I became an Episcopalian and a happy and devout one at that.”:

Are you serious. Correct me if I’m mistaken but do we not owe the existance of the Holy Bible the efforts of the Councils of the Cathoolic Church ( Carthrage, Trent and Hippo respectively).

Really, why do you trust your Bible? Who said it was the word of God? (It definately was not an Apostle) How do you know? Who decided that the 4 Gospels in the New Testament were written by the Apostles and thus the word of God and the other 50 Gospels floating around back then were not.

Quick question. IF an Apostle told you to listen to another man and follow there teachings and obey there rulings as you would that Apostle, would you do it? And if that man told you to obey another man and and obey there rulings as you would himself, would you do it?

If the Apostles were protected by the Holy Spirit, why would’nt there successors. Tell me, how far down the line will you go until you ecide that the authority and teaching is no longer accurate?

The Bible tells us that there is sound doctrine and false doctrine. Who Decides?

Last Question, What truths did these councils manufacture?

(Quick round of logic. The Bible by your premise is a manufactured truth since no Christian community before Pope Damascus’ ruling believed “only” the 27 books in the New Testament were God-Breathed. They still used the Didache, The Letters of Pope Clement, as well as various others in the liturgy)

 

[holy_wood]

Again, thank you.

I am an ex-cradle Catholic turned Episcopalian about 3 years ago. I left the church because I couldn’t fathom the sincerity of **papal infallibility **ACbishop

I don’t understand, if no human authority is infalliable then is the Bible fallible since it was compiled after the Apostles died. How can a fallible authority bring about the infalliable. If these men truly were fallible then that means not only can the books in the Bible be erroneous doctrines but also there can be books outside the Bible that are truly the word of God.

Iand the idea of the magisterium interpretting scripture for the faithful who must accept it as the only interpretation of scripture.

This statement bothers me. At least from what I was taught about the Magisterium it exist to give boundaries. I believe it has even said that it did not even know what a certain passage meant but it was o.k. to interpret it as you will “as long as it did not contradict already defined church teaching” It gives boundaies, so that one does not start reading the Bible and begin conjouring up heretical ideas.

The Bible made it clear that the ignorant and unstable can wrest scripture to there own destruction, so the obvious question is. Who decides who is ignorant and unstable, who is knowlegble, and who gave them the authority to decide?