Also, the liturgy is formative. By reciting the Creed, we remind ourselves of it and repeatedly state the most basic points of Christian orthodoxy, helping us to avoid straying from it. We say what we believe to reinforce it in ourselves.
If the person insisting they are right and the Church is wrong then that person is wrong, not the Church. Christ established the Catholic Church and entrusted it with the Deposit of Faith and gave it authority to teach in matters of faith and morals. That means all Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them and in matters of faith and morals the Church is not in error.
Let me put it to you in my very American Evangelical view. I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church. However, I have also attended Methodist, Non-Denominational, Assembly of God and even Church of Christ regularly for short period of time. All of those churches beliefs are probably 80-90% the same. In some cases closer to 95% the same. If you look at the statement of faith from most non-denominational churches and most Southern Baptist churches you will have to look for differences because from just a cursory reading you would think they are very much the same thing. From my viewpoint, those 80-90% of doctrinal agreements far outweigh the 10-20% of disagreements, most of which are very debatable and theologians have been arguing over that 10-20% for centuries or even millennia.
That is a tough question.
That is certainly the Catholic position. It is a position not held by a large portion of Christianity, especially in the United States and parts of Europe.
Often the person insisting “the Church is wrong” is wrong about what the Church teaches. This is very common around here. It is not a simple situation of “He insists on A, the Church teaches B, therfore B is right.”
So what do you say to the person who is genuinely “born again” and the Holy Spirit indwells in that person and they live a life of love and compassion, yet they don’t believe what you believe about certain doctrinal matters and yet they 100% believe that their doctrine is the correct doctrine and yours in wrong?
And part of their doctrine, that they believe is 100% correct, is that the Catholic church made a mess of things and that their church is unraveling that mess and you can’t convince them otherwise. Yet, they remain a genuinely born again Christian that the Holy Spirit indwells and they live a life of love and compassion.
Thank you for the kind words.Yes, they take a Catholic book, remove 7 of the individual books therein, tell the RCC they are wrong about everything and beat them over the head with it like aunt Esther from Sanford and Son lol.
Not you, though, Ian. You have been very cordial. And we do appreciate it.
My son is getting married to a wonderful Catholic girl this summer. That is what brought me here.
Christianity is not a purely spiritual religion. Someone can be as spiritually dedicated to God as can be, but that’s not a full Christianity because Christianity is also a physical, sacramental religion. It is not meant to be practiced purely internally; worship is both a spiritual and a physical act. Baptism washes away our sins; through the Eucharist we physically receive the body of Christ. So even if that person is quite faithful, that person is missing out on the fullness of the faith, because the fullness of our faith involves not just our souls but also our bodies.Lenten_ashes:
Thank you for the kind words.Yes, they take a Catholic book, remove 7 of the individual books therein, tell the RCC they are wrong about everything and beat them over the head with it like aunt Esther from Sanford and Son lol.
Not you, though, Ian. You have been very cordial. And we do appreciate it.
The point I’m trying to make is that at some point, the fact the Christ is dwelling in someone via the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit is evident in their life has to trump doctrinal purity. After all, they both think they have pure doctrine, while you and others may disagree with them and they with you. Does not the faith they profess and the living out of that faith trump doctrinal error (real or perceived depending on who you are). Doesn’t the fact that Christ is living through and in them a greater indication of their spiritual state than what church they attend?
You asked the question, “Does Doctrine matter”?
I’ll ask the question, “Does God changing a person heart and filling them with the Holy Spirit matter”? That is what American Evangelical Christianity teaches. God changes our hearts, makes us new creations in Christ, adopts us as a Child of God, fills us with the Holy Spirit, which leads us to live for Him and give Him glory.
Is it possible for God to do that and someone to for them to still have wrong doctrine? Does the work of God in their life confirm their standing before Him and give evidence of their spiritual state. Does having the wrong doctrine (intellectual understanding) take away their spiritual state of being in Christ?
My son is getting married to a wonderful Catholic girl this summer. That is what brought me here.
Yeah, the official Anglican position in the 39 Articles is that they’re valid for instruction but not for doctrine. At this point I fully accept them as Scripture simply for historical reasons, though I have yet to read them (as this is a relatively recent conclusion for me).
Yes, and the people who attend American Evangelical churches physically live out their faith. They attend church and find joy in the music and peace and reflection in the preaching and teaching. They were baptized and regularly take the Lord’s Supper, They do devotionals where they read the Bible and ponder it’s meaning, they sponsor Children through organizations like compassion international, they support their local food banks and crisis pregnancy center, they help volunteer to help immigrants learn English and support ministries that help people learn to read and get a GED and get into college.