Does everyone truly believe that "God will provide?"

[mommy_k]

The posts I have read more often are those where women have given up their careers and potential to make money-in order to stay at home with children, and then have to make financiall adjustments. Or posts where someone is sick or laid off.in these situations, God will provide material comfort, opportunities, and give grace and strength.

The reason people marry others who are financially and/or educationally their equals or close to it, is because these people met in a common enviornment at the right time.

I have not read that finances are the reason people marry each other.

God provides through Himself, others and ourseleves-bringing opportunities as Darklight posted.

 

[Xantippe]

You forgot the most annoying one:

1. People who say “God will provide” and don’t consider that they might be the means of provision!

Very good point.

From James 2:

“14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”

 

[white_sheep]

I would say in addition to what mommyk said that they meet at the right time, that it makes good sense to marry someone of similar background. That is why it is usually recommended. I doubt it is really because they are thinking you have to marry someone who makes a lot of money to pay for all those kids. Kids don’t have to cost all that much, especially if you can avoid daycare. Not that I have anything against daycare.

I think God has provided for us, but usually in ways I didn’t expect. I have also seen a lot of Catholics raise a lot of kids on a lot less money than many people would think possible. God calls us to be good stewards.

 

[Thorns]

On a certain level, I can agree with you, at least partially. If that same dreamy gal who first said no to me were to come back after I was making good money and in my nice home and want to change her mind, I’m not sure I would go for that. It’s nice to be loved for who you are, but I do believe the virtue of prudence needs to be active in all the decisions we make in life, too, otherwise it’s a sort of presumption on our part that we can make bad choices and God will in the end fix everything.

My two denarii.

Well, I happen to agree with your statement. But what it basically amounts to is you can only trust God if you can help yourself first. If you can’t help yourself first, then don’t presume God will. Which is not really trust at the end of the day anyway.

I don’t think anyone thinks “it’s ok” for others to struggle financially. Wanting to live somewhat comfortably is a natural desire. But I think most Catholics, and other Christians (other than the “name it and claim it” variety) believe that there will come things in life that are out of their control, whether it be financial problems, health problems or natural disasters. No one wants that to happen to themselves or to anyone else. ** But we maintain faith that, IF such things happen, God hasn’t abandoned us and will provide support, material or spiritual.**

And for many of the people who are not well off financially who have expressed them not wanting to have kids due to that fact, the response is given “Do it anyway, God will provide.” Well, “IF such things were to happen” can be avoided by that particular couple by simply not having kids, which falls under the categories of common sense, logic, and prudential judgement. I’ve seen so many threads on here with people who are struggling badly in their lives financially and otherwise with big families and I see no provisions for them from God. Yes, it is true that it may not also be financial provisions, but like I said, the same people who say this would not be willing to go through it themselves and they admit it when they say they can only marry someone and start a family with someone who can support them financially (notice how they didnt mention support them emotionally or support them with God’s grace of strength?)

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I happen to agree with your statement. But what it basically amounts to is you can only trust God if you can help yourself first. If you can’t help yourself first, then don’t presume God will. Which is not really trust at the end of the day anyway.

Well, I think it’s a question of making the best and most prudent decision we are able to and then trusting God and trying to be at peace with whatever the consequences are of our choices, not being able to see beforehand what all of the repercussions of our choices are going to be.

And for many of the people who are not well off financially who have expressed them not wanting to have kids due to that fact, the response is given “Do it anyway, God will provide.” Well, “IF such things were to happen” can be avoided by that particular couple by simply not having kids, which falls under the categories of common sense, logic, and prudential judgement. I’ve seen so many threads on here with people who are struggling badly in their lives financially and otherwise with big families and I see no provisions for them from God.

**???

They’re alive, aren’t they? We’ve never had a large family on CAF literally starve to death.
**

Yes, it is true that it may not also be financial provisions, but like I said, the same people who say this would not be willing to go through it themselves.

You must not be reading the same CAF I am, because on the CAF I read, it’s often the parents of large families who say “trust God” with regard to family size the most. We have a number of providentialist families on CAF. I personally am not a providentialist, and often wind up disagreeing with providentialists, but I think you are being quite unfair to at least 50% of the people who say “trust God.”

 

[Thorns]

God bless you. Are friends of yours or people on this forum really being hypocritical, or are you just getting the “vibe” that they are? I am honestly a bit confused by your question so am seeking clarity. You mentioned that people were giving contradictory advice on this forum but didn’t give specific examples, just your vibe you were picking up.

Because no one outright admits that they are hypocrites. Their statements tell the story though and based on this and with trying to be charitable in my assumptions, I will say that it is a “vibe” I get. Unless someone can explain to me how it isn’t hypocritical.

As far as God providing, I think when people say that they don’t always mean that God will make money fall out of the sky. Sometimes God provides a path for a career, a path to a sale on a house, other ways such as cars and appliances lasting longer. God is good!

Yes, but how ironic that these people do not say that they can only marry a man if he can one day be provided with “a path for a career, a path to a sale on a house, other ways such as cars and appliances lasting longer.” They aren’t willing to take a chance, they want an established man. But it’s okay for others to maybe be provided with a "“a path for a career, a path to a sale on a house, other ways such as cars and appliances lasting longer.”

See my point?

 

[Corki]

And for many of the people who are not well off financially who have expressed them not wanting to have kids due to that fact, the response is given “Do it anyway, God will provide.” Well, “IF such things were to happen” can be avoided by that particular couple by simply not having kids, which falls under the categories of common sense, logic, and prudential judgement. I’ve seen so many threads on here with people who are struggling badly in their lives financially and otherwise with big families and I see no provisions for them from God. Yes, it is true that it may not also be financial provisions, but like I said, the same people who say this would not be willing to go through it themselves and they admit it when they say they can only marry someone and start a family with someone who can support them financially (notice how they didnt mention support them emotionally or support them with God’s grace of strength?)

You are confusing two different things. Assuming we are talking about a Catholic couple, wanting to have kids is part of what marriage is all about. If the couple faces some temporary financial hardship and wants to delay having children, there is nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any requirement to have a large family regardless of your ability to provide for them. No one should have more children with the intent to try to **create **financial hardship as a test to see if God will provide.

The second issue is people want to marry individuals who have some worldly attributes that point, especially as men (sorry if that’s sexist, but it’s biology), to being a good provider. Your first post implied that this indicated, at best, a lack of faith or, at worst, pure hypocrisy.

 

[Thorns]

As Christians (that is Catholic Christians), it is not our goal in this life to acquire possessions. Worship not the golden calf. Once basic necessities have been provided for, the rest is just gravy. Better to live life frugally with a spouse that helps you into heaven than lavishly with a spouse who does not. That’s my take.

I am of that opinion as well. I just found it very odd, worldly, contradictory to all of what Catholicism teaches to see other Catholics with such a secular and material mindset to marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

Because no one outright admits that they are hypocrites. Their statements tell the story though and based on this and with trying to be charitable in my assumptions, I will say that it is a “vibe” I get. Unless someone can explain to me how it isn’t hypocritical.

**Again, it’s not reasonable to make that accusation without collecting the conflicting posts from the same person. I think you will wind up with at least 3 or so, but I don’t think it’s nearly as prevalent as you think.

Also, it’s quite likely that different situations are being discussed. They might be saying “trust God” with regard to having a first or second child, while they themselves already have four, five or six and are anxious about the fifth, sixth, or seventh. **

Yes, but how ironic that these people do not say that they can only marry a man if he can one day be provided with “a path for a career, a path to a sale on a house, other ways such as cars and appliances lasting longer.” They aren’t willing to take a chance, they want an established man. But it’s okay for others to maybe be provided with a "“a path for a career, a path to a sale on a house, other ways such as cars and appliances lasting longer.”

See my point?

Eh, now I’m starting to see the problem.

You are comparing:

1. A young married couple with financial or health problems

and

1. an unmarried woman who doesn’t want to marry a man without good material prospects.

The problem with the comparison is that the default for Catholics is that the young married couple should have children. It is not, however, the default assumption for Catholics that a young unmarried woman should get married. She is under no obligation at all–she doesn’t need to have a reason not to marry.

Can you see the difference?

 

[Thorns]

You are confusing two different things. Assuming we are talking about a Catholic couple, wanting to have kids is part of what marriage is all about. If the couple faces some temporary financial hardship and wants to delay having children, there is nothing wrong with that. Nor is there any requirement to have a large family regardless of your ability to provide for them. No one should have more children with the intent to try to **create **financial hardship as a test to see if God will provide.

I understand and I am referring to these kind of couples. They are still given the lecture about God providing. And if the couple is nearing sterility in their relationship and is still going through hardship, they are still given that same line.

 

[Thorns]

Eh, now I’m starting to see the problem.

You are comparing:

1. A young married couple with financial or health problems

and

1. an unmarried woman who doesn’t want to marry a man without good material prospects.

Not necessarily. #2 could be married too and her statement is “I could never have married a man who wasn’t of the same education or who didn’t make as much money as me, if not more.”

 

[Xantippe]

I understand and I am referring to these kind of couples. They are still given the lecture about God providing. And if the couple is nearing sterility in their relationship and is still going through hardship, they are still given that same line.

I don’t think it is the same people at all. On CAF, the most likely person to say that “God will provide” or “trust God” to a couple in that situation is a mother of 8+. No hypocrisy there.

I do very much disagree with providentialists, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.

And honestly, hypocrite hunting is not a very wholesome Christian pastime. (I know Jesus had a lot to say about hypocrites, but being sinless and all, he was in a unique position to do that.)

 

[Thorns]

And honestly, hypocrite hunting is not a very wholesome Christian pastime. (I know Jesus had a lot to say about hypocrites, but being sinless and all, he was in a unique position to do that.)

Ah, the “don’t judge” card

Whatever happened to judging actions, or in this case, statements? Certainly one can question something that doesn’t sound right?

 

[Corki]

I understand and I am referring to these kind of couples. They are still given the lecture about God providing. And if the couple is nearing sterility in their relationship and is still going through hardship, they are still given that same line.

Who is giving “that same line” or lecture? At least here on CAF, I have never heard anyone telling someone facing real (not imagined future) hardship that he/she must continue to have children. Nor have I heard anyone (other than one particular poster who keeps getting banned for it) ever say that financial hardship is not a good reason to delay having another child.

What I DO hear is a faithful response IF a couple finds out they are having a child when they were already concerned about providing for the children they already have. And it’s much better to express faith than despair. Do you think a couple in this situation should be given a different “lecture”? One that says “all is lost”, “your lives are ruined” and “you will never amount to anything or ever overcome this”?

 

[Xantippe]

Not necessarily. #2 could be married too and her statement is “I could never have married a man who wasn’t of the same education or who didn’t make as much money as me, if not more.”

Eh, can’t you see that education is also a compatibility issue? People who are of the same relative education level and have similar experiences (which similar education does furnish) have an easier time communicating with each other, understanding each other, and respecting each other.

Also, relative earning power can also be a compatibility issue. We have a couple women on CAF who are the major breadwinners in their families and who are ticked off by the situation. That really does happen (just as it also happens that other women don’t mind at all). I know that I personally would probably struggle with respecting my husband if he weren’t as professionally successful as he is–it makes it easier to respect him, knowing that he is respected and valued in his field. As you may realize, women often struggle with respecting their husbands. Hence, a lot of us need all the help we can get in that department, so we need to marry a man with qualities that demand our respect.

What looks to you like sheer materialism may have a spiritual dimension–a woman may want to be good and sure only to marry a man that she can respect and be a good wife to. I really cannot criticize any woman for doing that.

 

[masondoggy]

I’ve seen it stated here on CAF numerous times and I’ve heard it in person among other Catholics that “God will provide”, usually in response to a married couple/person who says that they don’t want children because they are incapable in one way or another (usually financially) to support them.

Yet, I see a lot of these same people that state they could only marry someone with the same level of education and that makes as much money as them if not more, has to be able to be well off financially in case a big family is started etc.

It seems to me that some of these same people don’t exactly believe their own words and don’t believe that “God will provide”. What’s up with that?

I do believe in that statement and I think it’s been very true in my own life. But I don’t think it’s an automatic guarantee, either. DH and I got married and had kids very young. He was 23, I was 19 (2 months short of turning 20). Probably should have waited a few years and it was a very rough start to our lives. We were poor. We lived very frugally on one paycheck for about the first 15 years. We didn’t have money for any extras and there were times when we feared we wouldn’t be able to buy enough food. But it never came down to that. The hard times taught us early on to completely trust in God and the more we trusted, the more He took care of us. DH is a very skilled mechanic and it always seemed that when we would be in the most dire circumstances, somebody would suddenly need their car fixed and that would give us enough cash to buy groceries. This happened so many times, timed so perfectly, that we have no doubt it was God’s intervention. There was NEVER any other times that somebody would call DH up and ask him to fix their car. It was only when we were desperate. I firmly believe that if we hadn’t chosen to trust and put things in God’s hands, I don’t think we would have made it.

Now, we’ve been married almost 18 years and things are definitely looking up. DH has moved up in his career to a point where he can earn enough for us to live comfortably and we can easily look back and see how God put things in place to make this possible. And it all came down to trust. We trusted Him, he planned ahead for our future.

“God will provide” doesn’t mean there won’t be hard times. Doesn’t mean you will have all the “things” you want. It doesn’t mean you’ll have the lifestyle you want. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t have to do your part and work hard. And there may be times when it seems that God has abandoned you and everything is falling apart and you don’t understand WHY he’s not helping you. And then you look back 10 years later and realize that He WAS helping you by putting the dominoes in place for something that will happen in your future that will benefit you immensely. It’s all about trust, even when things seem hopeless.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m thinking of a smart, lazy deadbeat dad surfer dude that used to drift around my home town, mooching off his hard-working (but far too tolerant) live-in girlfriend.

If I had (through some unfortunate chain of events) wound up married to said lazy dead beat dad surfer dude, I can only imagine what kind of wife I would have been to him.

 

[Corki]

Not necessarily. #2 could be married too and her statement is “I could never have married a man who wasn’t of the same education or who didn’t make as much money as me, if not more.”

I don’t understand. Are you saying there is something wrong with this? I most likely would never have married a man who didn’t have somewhere near the same education level that I have. Attitude about education and value of learning is something that is important to me and that I wanted to instill in (at that time) our future children. As for money, at the time we married my husband was not making much but his future earning potential was significant. This was important to me because I wanted to be a SAHM.

Now, that’s not to say that if I fell in love with someone with less education or lower career prospects, I wouldn’t have married him. But the men I dated (and therefore were perspective spouses) were professionals or pre-professionals. By that time, I was in grad school myself and wanted to have a lot in common with a spouse. People want to marry those they are compatible with.

Wanting to marry someone with a similar education background is not any different than wanting to marry someone with a similar faith.

 

[JamalChristophr]

.

Beautiful testimony! Thanks!!

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t understand. Are you saying there is something wrong with this? I most likely would never have married a man who didn’t have somewhere near the same education level that I have. Attitude about education and value of learning is something that is important to me and that I wanted to instill in (at that time) our future children.

Exactly. If one’s husband never cracks a book, what kind of example does that set for the kids?

As for money, at the time we married my husband was not making much but his future earning potential was significant. This was important to me because I wanted to be a SAHM.

When we got married, we each were making somewhere in the neighborhood of $10k-$14k (something like that), with no guarantee of anything better. But I was young enough and from a poor enough background that I didn’t fret.