Yes. It happens all the time in infant Baptism. The infant is changed but there is no discernible sign of that change.
This is an obvious different in Catholic and Evangelical Theology. From the evangelical perspective all of those things I mentioned (new creation, adopted, filled with the Holy Spirit) happen at conversion, which may or may not include water baptism.
Yes. That’s true. I believe Luther said that the Reformation stands or falls on this difference.
This is a fair criticism in Evangelical circles. One that I believe is starting to be addressed in many Evangelical churches. Take for instance, this short clip from David Platt. He is the President of the Southern Baptist International Mission Board, which is the largest mission organization in the Southern Baptist Convention. Which is the largest Evangelist denomination in the USA.
That’s good. So, the Reformed churches are unreforming.
You said:
Another difference is in the way that we understand “conversion”. For you, I believe, correct me if I’m wrong, this is a one time event. But the Catholic Church Teaches that this is a life long struggle with sin. We must turn to God, daily.
As for me, personally, I still struggle with sin and so I call out to God and to His Saints, frequently.
Can you honestly tell me that you no longer struggle with sin? And when you overcome, do you not consider it a “conversion” or “turning towards”, God, which has saved you again?
I do.
Baptism does not guarantee that someone will seek to glorify God or seek to do the works of our Lord. It is a gift of washing away sins consequence, being adopted as a child of God, being given the Holy Spirit, and accepted into the Church with privileges and obligations.lanman87:
Yes. It happens all the time in infant Baptism. The infant is changed but there is no discernible sign of that change.
However, receiving and accepting God’s prevenient gift of faith does change a person. Once one turns to God in faith, he begins to learn God,s will and to do the works which please God. Then, having gained holy wisdom, he requests Baptism. It is at this point that having been washed with water we receive the Holy Spirit and He infuses us with His gifts. And we are made born again children of God.
I’m know theologian but I must say after spending 5 months on this board I’m getting better at it.
Yes, I think much of the evangelical church has focused on getting people to “say the prayer” instead of having a true conversion experience that is deep and lasting. Ironically, it is the reemergence of Reformed Doctrine in Southern Baptist churches that has led to a changing of focus from “decisions” for Christ to “conversions” for Christ. It is groups like the Gospel Coalition that have led the charge to make true conversion the focus of the efforts instead of mere decisions.
I think they are motivational sermons. I don’t think they are much different than the ones surrounding the “sinner’s prayer” calls.rcwitness:
Yes, I think much of the evangelical church has focused on getting people to “say the prayer” instead of having a true conversion experience that is deep and lasting. Ironically, it is the reemergence of Reformed Doctrine in Southern Baptist churches that has led to a changing of focus from “decisions” for Christ to “conversions” for Christ. It is groups like the Gospel Coalition that have led the charge to make true conversion the focus of the efforts instead of mere decisions.
What did you think of those videos?
I’m know theologian but I must say after spending 5 months on this board I’m getting better at it.
Why is it, then, that every time I’m around a bunch of Evangelicals, it seems the first thing out of their mouths is “works” righteousness (a false claim they always lob at the Catholic Church), or “I used to be Catholic but”. Is it just for my benefit?
Yes, for us it’s it’s conversion by faith then regeneration in the waters of Baptism. And initial conversion is not just saying, I believe, but entails studying and producing works of repentance.
The difference here is immense. You have two schools of thought but not under one authority which protects the integrity of the doctrine. Your two schools can take Scripture and turn it on it’s head, as they have frequently. Look at Calvinism with its doctrine of “Total Depravity”. And that whole sordid idea of “penal substitution” where they pit the Father against His only begotten and most beloved Son.
We also have schools of thought. But they are governed by the Church and don’t deviate from God’s Doctrines and principles. AND they willingly submit to this authority.
For us, all these processes occur simultaneously. As one gets closer to God, one is sanctified by His proximity.
This last part mostly conforms to Catholic Doctrine. But, what you haven’t mentioned is that you don’t believe that one can fall away. But that doesn’t match the real human experience. Because I know of many Evangelicals who have fallen away. And some which have become Catholic, which other Evangelicals regard as falling away.
cont’d
Which we call continual conversion.
Which we consider continuous justification.
Which we consider continual sanctification. Divinization is also here.
If you know all this, then why do Evangelicals cling to the idea that people can’t fall away?
We also call that Glorification. And Divinization. But Divinization is also a process that begins with conversion, as well. I’ll go back and fit it in.
I don’t have a problem with a sinners prayer when applied correctly. That is, it is an introduction of someone to Christ that may or may not be an indication of true conversion. I think the problem we evangelicals have had is that we automatically assume that if someone “Says the prayer” that they have come to faith in Christ. I believe much of the evangelical community is starting to realize that it isn’t always the case that the sinners prayer=faith/conversion.
Soon, you’ll bring back Sacramental Confession and Eucharist and then, there will remain no more barriers for coming back to the Catholic Church.
