Does faith produce "works" automatically?

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Maybe someone who is Protestant can clear this up for me. I listen to Protestant preachers on most days. Today John MacArthur said what I have heard before, that works “show” our faith and that “faith alone” is still the correct understanding. So…2-fold question:
  1. Does faith produce works “automatically”? Would those with genuine faith know how to behave without the Bible as a guide?
  2. Do the works do nothing for our salvation? But rather, they are useful only to others so they can see our faith??
 
Maybe someone who is Protestant can clear this up for me. I listen to Protestant preachers on most days. Today John MacArthur said what I have heard before, that works “show” our faith and that “faith alone” is still the correct understanding. So…2-fold question:
first, let me say that i’m not going to line up with macarthur on many things. that being said…
  1. Does faith produce works “automatically”? Would those with genuine faith know how to behave without the Bible as a guide?
yes, genuine faith will cause (out of love for God and His grace) works to flow from a person. well, let me take that back a bit. grace is what allows the works to flow. we receive that grace through faith (“it is the gift of God, not by works so that no man may boast” - Eph.). when grace enters our life, through faith, works will flow (because if you say you have faith and no works flow from it, that faith is dead - James). i would go so far as to say works would flow even without the bible. let’s remember (as many on these forums like to point out) there was no bible for many years within Christianity. also, Paul tells us that God’s truth is written on our hearts (“so that no man has an excuse” - Romans).
  1. Do the works do nothing for our salvation? But rather, they are useful only to others so they can see our faith??
i think one of the uses is for others to see our works and believe in the One who gives us the grace to do the works. i do not think that the only use of works is outward. i don’t think the works “save” us (or have anything to do with wether or not we “get to heaven”) but they do perfect us. like constantly being purified. for those of us who aren’t purified enough in this life (and here is one place i will break with many protestants… not all mind you) purgatory finishes the process of purifying or perfecting us. by this i mean, the works help to shape us more and more into the likeness of Jesus. even the works done where no one can see them done serve this purpose.
 
When you say, “the works help to shape us more and more into the likeness of Jesus. even the works done where no one can see them done serve this purpose,” that sounds rather Catholic to me.
You say you have a belief in purgatory or a process of purification before entering heaven. You say that our works here on earth begin that process and purgatory (or something like it) finishes this process…Well that seems like the Catholic position, plain and simple.
Isn’t that what “salvation” is all about…the believer being shaped into the “likeness of Jesus”? So if good works are a part of this process then then our works DO matter, and catholics are right. Faith is absolutely important, and Grace is involved throughout. It is all a person’s response to God’s gift of grace that makes this possible. But it still requires our “response” - we cannot just be puppets - doing good works without any will of our own. We respond to God’s grace by willfully doing good works, and those works go toward our sanctification so that we are made pure to enter heaven. It is our “will” working in conjunction with God’s Grace…Are you sure you’re not a closet Catholic?
Thomas
 
When you say, “the works help to shape us more and more into the likeness of Jesus. even the works done where no one can see them done serve this purpose,” that sounds rather Catholic to me.
You say you have a belief in purgatory or a process of purification before entering heaven. You say that our works here on earth begin that process and purgatory (or something like it) finishes this process…Well that seems like the Catholic position, plain and simple.
Isn’t that what “salvation” is all about…the believer being shaped into the “likeness of Jesus”? So if good works are a part of this process then then our works DO matter, and catholics are right. Faith is absolutely important, and Grace is involved throughout. It is all a person’s response to God’s gift of grace that makes this possible. But it still requires our “response” - we cannot just be puppets - doing good works without any will of our own. We respond to God’s grace by willfully doing good works, and those works go toward our sanctification so that we are made pure to enter heaven. It is our “will” working in conjunction with God’s Grace…Are you sure you’re not a closet Catholic?
Thomas
I think the Protestant emphasis is that while works are a necessary part of the process they don’t merit anything. While after death we will be purged from any remaining sinful nature that does not involve a temporal punishment for sins. I think that the general consensus would be that it is an instantaneous purging.
 
I think the Protestant emphasis is that while works are a necessary part of the process they don’t merit anything.
They would say works are not even good for sanctifying us? i.e making us “holier”?
While after death we will be purged from any remaining sinful nature that does not involve a temporal punishment for sins. I think that the general consensus would be that it is an instantaneous purging.
In my experience on Purgatory threads, there is definitely a denial that Purgatory exists on the part of many Protestants (bengal, not included 😃 ) However, the conversation often goes as you said, to an understanding that there will be an “instantaneous” purgation at death…this of course is a perfectly acceptable position for a Catholic to hold, and I think we are close to uniting on the issue of Purgatory if it is explained correctly. :o
 
We are justified by faith and saved by grace through faith.
  1. Does faith produce works “automatically”? Would those with genuine faith know how to behave without the Bible as a guide?
The Bible says that faith without works is dead.

As we are saved by grace through faith and The Bible also says that grace teaches us to say “No” to ungodlyness and sinful desires, grace through faith teaches us to do good works.
  1. Do the works do nothing for our salvation? But rather, they are useful only to others so they can see our faith??
That is correct.
 
I’m Catholic and there’s no doubt that the deeper my faith has gotten the more my works have increased. When I was deep into my Catholic faith I would hand over my $5 lunch to a homeless man and fast. When I’m out of the Church I’ll think “why doesn’t he get a job”, or “he’ll just buy booze”…
 
You can take this down with Scripture Alone 😉

James 2:14-17: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Obviously James holds that it is possible to possess faith without works to show for it, and that one must do these works in order to truly live the faith. A dead faith will not see you to paradise; therefore, a living faith signified through works is what counts.

1 Corinthians 13 is also a good reference, in addition to being a work of art in its own right – although I must say I vastly prefer ‘through a glass darkly’ to the NAB’s far more awkward ‘indistinctly, as in a mirror’ 😉
 
There is an old saying that idle hands are the devil’s workshop. I think that looking at works through this saying may show that there can be a saving aspect to them. You are tempted differently if you are doing God’s work than if you are sitting at home doing nothing. You resist it differently, too.

I think that that saying is a Protestant one, too.
 
They would say works are not even good for sanctifying us? i.e making us “holier”?
Doing good works is definitely part of sanctification which also includes showing others a Christian life. But since we are saved by grace, our works do not merit anything since it would not be by grace if we did.

I don’t really think that there is that great a difference in our positions. The Catechism does talk about works meriting grace and slavation but it also says that there can be not really talk about meriting anything from God because of the great disparity between us. So it seems to say we merit but not in a real sense by what would normally be meant by merit.
 
Thanks for the replies. The thing that confuses me the most about the more common “Protestant” position on this matter is that I hear on the one hand that works are “necessary” and on the other that they “merit nothing”.
 
Works are intimately connected to salvation. Faith without works is dead. Works are not a mere demonstration or proof of saving faith. They are part of a saving faith. Let’s look at James 2:18 which says:

“But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.”

Now let’s use an analogy.

Try this:

But some one will say, you have a car and I have car parts. Show me your car apart from its parts, and I by my car parts will show you my car. This word picture clearly illustrates what the apostle is getting at. You do not have saving faith without works any more than you have a car without car parts.

The linkage between faith and works cannot be broken. Faith and works are inextricably intertwined and cannot be separated. That is why James uses the powerful analogy of the body and spirit in verse 26 where he says, “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” Think about this profound statement. Faith is compared with the body and works are compared to the spirit. The body and spirit together make up a living human being. You cannot have a living human being without both together. Likewise you cannot have a justifying faith without works, and James tells us that faith without works is dead and that it cannot save you. This cannot mean that works are simply the demonstration of saving faith. God knows all things and he does not need a demonstration by works to know if a man has faith. God requires that a man have both faith and works to be justified, and this is precisely why James hammers on this point.

James says that we are justified “by works” three times in Chapter 2 of his epistle. He also says that faith is “completed by works.” He never says anything like, “works are a demonstration of faith” nor does he suggest that his explanation is “probative in nature.” You have to ignore his clear and emphatic words and must heavily massage others to make any kind of case to support the alternative position.

James is most likely correcting anyone that has misunderstood Paul’s teaching. We know this because James writes his discourse with sarcasm in such a way as to make a caricature of the error of those that misunderstand Paul. James is so down on the idea of salvation by faith alone that he goes to the extreme of saying, “Even the demons believe–and shudder.” James even calls the man who believes that he is justified by faith alone “shallow.” Some translations use the words, “vain man, fool, empty person, or idle boaster.” Moreover, James also uses an example of Abraham being justified before God that is different from the one Paul uses. James makes it clear that Abraham was “justified” when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac when he says in verse 21, “Was not Abraham our father “justified” by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” This is a complete thought and shows the importance of obedience to God and doing the works “that God prepared beforehand”[Eph 2:10] James could have left it at that but he explains the relationship of faith and works in justification further by going on to say, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,“ James says “completed.” This is much different than saying that works are a demonstration of faith.

Finally, James then makes the connection to Gen 15:6 when he then says, “and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.” This statement by James IHMO has a two-fold purpose. First of all James wants everybody to see that he is teaching something that is connected to the teaching of Paul. Secondly, he wants to make it clear that he is correcting a misunderstanding of Paul’s teaching and that he is giving a clarification. He clearly shows that justification is not a one time event because he uses a different event than Paul used. James could have just as easily made his argument using Genesis 15:6 by pointing out that Abraham’s actions of having marital relations with Sarah completed his faith concerning his descendents. He chose, however, to use a separate example and then connects it to 15:6 by saying, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.” In both examples Abraham believed. In both examples Abraham completed his faith with works. In both examples Abraham’s completed faith is reckoned to him as righteousness. In both examples Abraham was thus called a friend of God.

cont. on next post
 
cont. from prior post:

These same things can be said about Abraham when he “received divine approval” [see Heb 11:1-2] for “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.”[Heb 11:8-9] This represents a third example of Abraham being justified in the sight of God.

Paul is not talking only about justification as a verdict which God declares when he pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly. This juridical dimension is certainly in Paul’s letters but the dimension of being a new creation in Jesus Christ is also part of Paul’s message about justification. That is why Paul speaks extensively of dying to sin and living to righteousness in the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul talks about being “free from sin.” This means to be free from committing sin as well as being forgiven for past sins. Paul spends all of Romans Chapter 6 explaining that the justified can no longer engage in sin. He even says this, “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” It is obvious that Paul teaches that a Christian can die in sin and not be given eternal life in heaven. Paul does not refer to being a slave to righteousness as a demonstration of faith. He is teaching the same thing that James is teaching.

Our “initial justification” cannot be appropriated or acquired by our doing good works in advance of God’s grace. This is the message that Paul is emphasizing because of the heresy of the Judaizers. God gives us grace and quickens us. He gives us the gift of faith. He literally enables us to “believe.” It is still us that do the believing but it is God that makes it possible for us to do so. Likewise, in the same manner that God enables us to believe in the gospel, God also makes us a new creation in Christ Jesus for good works at the moment that we are initially justified.[Eph 2:8-10] This point is absolutely crucial to understanding justification. If you make justification merely a juridical decree, then you have truncated the true definition. Unfortunately, this is exactly what many Protestants do. An example of this is as follows:

James Buchanan states that justification by faith is a legal or forensic term used in scripture to denote the acceptance of anyone as righteous in the sight of God.

The Westminster statement on justification says:
“Justification is altogether a legal declarative act on God’s part as the supreme judge. We deny that justification is any sense a moral transformation or inner renewal. In justification, God legally declares the sinner who in himself is still guilty and polluted to be righteous in Christ. Justification involves only the legal imputation or legal account of the perfect righteousness of Christ to the sinner. We deny that justification is by a grace at conversion that enables sinners to do the law unto their justification.”

Please notice that this position denies everything there is in scripture concerning being born anew, being a new creation, and being empowered by grace at the point of justification. This view only recognizes the juridical dimension of justification and clearly departs from what is stated in Eph 2:8-10. This view is what determines the Protestant interpretation of what Paul and James are stating rather than allowing the scriptures to determine the doctrine.

cont. on next post
 
cont. from prior post:

Some might go on to say,

James intends by “justified” the verdict which God declares when the actually (previously) justified man has demonstrated his actual righteous state by obedience and good works.

This kind of argument is erroneous. There is no valid distinction concerning the verdict….you are either justified or you are not justified. If Abraham had not followed up with marital relations with Sarah by grace in the faith of God’s promises, the promise of his heirs being as numerous as the stars would not be fulfilled and Abraham’s faith would have been a dead faith and he would not have been justified. God gave Abraham both the grace to believe and the grace to do what was required to fulfill the promise concerning his descendents.
 
Thanks for the replies. The thing that confuses me the most about the more common “Protestant” position on this matter is that I hear on the one hand that works are “necessary” and on the other that they “merit nothing”.
it’s a mystery like the trinity! 😉

the point protestants try to make is that we cannot earn anything except death and eternal separation from God (hell). death and hell are the wages for what we have done, do, and will continue to do. our good works are like filthy rags to Him.

what good works do is to help bring about God’s kingdom (or reveal it, or allow others to experience it as well as ourselves… whatever take you have on the subject) and make us more like Jesus. they are sanctifying not justifying. there is a difference. justification gets you “in” (heaven)… meaning (sort of) by the skin of your teeth basically… it is the necessary requirement for heaven. we are justified by faith. sanctification prepares us for heaven. we cannot be in the presence of God and not be sanctified. this process begins after justification has taken place. if i have faith, i am going to heaven. but before i enter heaven i must be sanctified (purified, made perfect). this process can take place on earth but is most likely finished in purgatory.

i do not believe purgatory is a punishment for sins. that price was paid completely on the cross. this is where i would break from most catholic teaching on the subject. purgatory is a sanctification process, not a “teach a lesson” opportunity or a paying of a penalty. even though there might be pain involved it is not a punishment. i will borrow from c.s. lewis and compare it to getting a bath. the dirtier you were, the your parents had to scrub. sometimes you were so dirty they had to use rough lava soap. that hurt. they weren’t punishing you, they were cleaning you.

works help to cleanse us, purify us, sanctify us, perfect us. they do not earn us anything and cannot save us.
 
Thanks for the replies. The thing that confuses me the most about the more common “Protestant” position on this matter is that I hear on the one hand that works are “necessary” and on the other that they “merit nothing”.
I think part of the emphasis has got to be that if you are doing good works because you want to be saved or don’t want to be punished you are doing them for the wrong reason. What are you saying if you do them for these reasons? **I want **salvation or I don’t want to go to Hell. The focus is still on I My wants and don’t wants are the focus, not God’s. We should be doing them because it is what God wants.
 
Paul is not talking only about justification as a verdict which God declares when he pardons and imputes righteousness to the ungodly. This juridical dimension is certainly in Paul’s letters but** the dimension of being a new creation in Jesus Christ is also part of Paul’s message about justification.**
and i would say it’s part of his message about sanctification. paul if fairly clear that faith justifies. then, read paul with a james mindset and you’ll see he is speaking of being sanctified by works.
 
I think part of the emphasis has got to be that if you are doing good works because you want to be saved or don’t want to be punished you are doing them for the wrong reason. What are you saying if you do them for these reasons? **I want **salvation or I don’t want to go to Hell. The focus is still on I My wants and don’t wants are the focus, not God’s. We should be doing them because it is what God wants.
I think that a Catholic would see it the same way. Our works should be done to the glory of God as a sign of our love for God and our love for our neighbor. It is like perfect contrition (sorry for sin because is offends God) vs imperfect contrition (sorry for sin because it sends you to hell).
 
Bengal, Sy, I take it that both of you agree that simply beleiving and never doing anything means you have dead faith, right?
 
and i would say it’s part of his message about sanctification. paul if fairly clear that faith justifies. then, read paul with a james mindset and you’ll see he is speaking of being sanctified by works.
Could it be that James and Paul mean different things by justify, just as Catholics and Protestants generally do. James is speaking of justication and salvation as being equivalent while Paul is speaking of justification as being part but not the whole of salvation?
 
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