Does fatalism follow from Divine simplicity?

[DanAl]

No. God has shown in his Revelation that he his will is free.is free. And the Church has Declared that he is free. It does not follow that the universe is " determined, " except in the sense that all has been done according to his will. He has left man free to determine his own course.

Alright, when I say that God’s *will *is contingent it means that he has free-will, in other words, he can do otherwise. I am not saying that God is contingent in the sense that he needs an explanation for his existence or a cause outside himself to explain how came to be.

You have a habit of putting lables on things or people which is contrary to the original intent. And " determinism " has a particularly repugnant history. It is best to avoid it lest people get the wrong idea.

Instead of accusing me of being misleading, it would help me if you show me how my use of the word determinism is misleading.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Alright, when I say that God’s *will *is contingent it means that he has free-will, in other words, he can do otherwise. I am not saying that God is contingent in the sense that he needs an explanation for his existence or a cause outside himself to explain how came to be.

Good. But then you shouldn’t say that God’s will is contingent. That is not true and is very misleading.

Instead of accusing me of being misleading, it would help me if you show me how my use of the word determinism is misleading.

See this Wikipedia article and you will see what I mean. However, " determanistic " is not a term used by reliable theologians or by the Church to describe God’s causality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Linus2nd

 

[DanAl]

Good. But then you shouldn’t say that God’s will is contingent. That is not true and is very misleading.

I still don’t get why you think that saying God’s will is contingent is false and misleading. I guess that medieval thinkers that used the same term were trying to teach falsehoods and were trying confuse people.

See this Wikipedia article and you will see what I mean. However, " determanistic " is not a term used by reliable theologians or by the Church to describe God’s causality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Linus2nd

I still don’t get why you think determinism is misleading. At least I am seeing pattern here, somehow, I get the feeling that you will keep dodging and weaving instead of coming out to tell us what is wrong or so misleading with the terms determinism or God’s contingent will.

But if you were confused in the beginning, there’s no need to react to my posts. Just admit to yourself that you were mistaken and move on. There’s no need for you to save face by pretending you were right all along.

Also, when you speak of “determinastic,” in scare quotes, what is that all about?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

I still don’t get why you think that saying God’s will is contingent is false and misleading. I guess that medieval thinkers that used the same term were trying to teach falsehoods and were trying confuse people

Because in philosophy and theology " contingent " means dependent and God’s will is not dependent on any thing. That he could have done otherwise than he has simply illustrates his freedom of will. Midievale philosophers never used the word as you have used it.

I still don’t get why you think determinism is misleading

If you read the link I provided you will see that " determinism " has many meanings. One particular repugnant meaning, the one many will think of, is that the world is governed by blind forces cause by nature itself, including human nature. It is an idea which gives rise to fatalism. Thomas Aquinas and the philosophers and theologians of the Church never used " determinism " in the context of God’s and nature’s causality. It just is not a good idea to describe God’s action as " deterministic. " Just describe how God’s causality works in the world.

At least I am seeing pattern here, somehow, I get the feeling that you will keep dodging and weaving instead of coming out to tell us what is wrong or so misleading with the terms determinism or God’s contingent will.

I’m just trying to tell you and anyone else who may be doing it. Besides what I have said above, people, out of ignorance or malice, try to hyjack the thought or work of famous people ( Thomas Aquinas or Aristotle ) by puting labels on their work and claim that those people agree with their particuar world view. And that is unjust and misleading.

But if you were confused in the beginning, there’s no need to react to my posts. Just admit to yourself that you were mistaken and move on. There’s no need for you to save face by pretending you were right all along.

I’m not mistaken. I think it is much better to put people and ideas in the context in which they arose. Thomas Aquinas for example, was very eclectic in his thinking. He drew from the work of dozens of thinkers. And it would be unjust to say that he belonged to any particuar school.

Also, when you speak of “determinastic,” in scare quotes, what is that all about?

Never heard of " scare quotes," I was merely setting the word off for emphasis.

Don’t be offended. I am just trying to be helpful.

Linus2nd

 

[DanAl]

Because in philosophy and theology " contingent " means dependent and God’s will is not dependent on any thing. Linus2nd

Contingent as it can be otherwise is also another meaning for contingent. The terms contingent to refer to free-will is used by modern philosophers, medieval scholastics and theologians.

Midievale philosophers never used the word as you have used it. Linus2nd

Medieval philosophers did speak of God’s contingent will as I have used it, Duns Scotus and Ockham are two famous examples.

If you read the link I provided you will see that " determinism " has many meanings. One particular repugnant meaning, the one many will think of, is that the world is governed by blind forces cause by nature itself, including human nature. It is an idea which gives rise to fatalism. Linus2nd

Here’s Merriam-Webster on determinism:" the belief that all events are caused by things that happened before them and that people have no real ability to make choices or control what happens."

Here’s the Oxford dictionary on determinism: “The doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes regarded as external to the will.”

I am speaking of causal determinism. Here, I’ll leave no stone unturned; I am speaking of causal determinism, nomological neccesity, metaphysical determinism, Diachronic determinism, modal collapse, etc. These words roughly mean the same thing to most philosophers. Let’s move on.

Thomas Aquinas and the philosophers and theologians of the Church never used " determinism " in the context of God’s and nature’s causality.Linus2nd

They used other terms that meant the same thing or used the same terms I used. Let’s move on.

It just is not a good idea to describe God’s action as " deterministic. " . Linus2nd

Are you saying that I think God’s actions are determined? that would be be most ironic since *you *said that God’s will is not contingent (you know, not free), and I replied that if that was true everything would be determined.

Just describe how God’s causality works in the world Linus2nd

I have said over and over God’s causality is free or contingent. And since his free-will is contingent the universe is contingent as a result.

Not contingency on the cause= not contingency in the effect. And please spare me "the God is not contingent,"shtick. It should be obvious by now that I am speaking of his will only.

By the way, this is textbook Scotus, whom I rely on for discussions about free-will. So, no I am not introducing “unjust” novelties.