Does 'free-will' end at death?

[Abba]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God? It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

It would seem - what sayest thou?

 

[Bahman]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God?

Fallen Angels apparently according to your teaching were witness of glory of God but they fell as the result of their action which were decided freely. So we could be in danger of falling forever even if join Him in Heaven.

It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

No free will doesn’t end since it is the fundamental property of consciousness/soul. You just don’t experience anything.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

No, you could still sin if you have free will. So the doctrine of final judgment is wrong since people can still fall again as Angels fell. The act of sin is very feasible sine our lives in Heaven is eternal so either we end up in Hell or another scenario follows, like fall of Adam and Eve. Everybody ends up in the hell in first case and there will be infinite falls in the second case. I think you can notice that the both cases are problematics since the act of creation is evil since everybody ends up in the Hell and the act of creation is circular in the second case, it simply has no end or purpose.

 

[Abba]

Fallen Angels apparently according to your teaching were witness of glory of God but they fell as the result of their action which were decided freely. So we could be in danger of falling forever even if join Him in Heaven.

Yeah, but once they fell they could not repent. It seems to be that Satan and his devils will never repent and neither will the souls of the damned because they cannot change their disposition even if forgiveness was offered to them.

Ummmm… but can the saved and the good angels fall or is is their disposition now fixed? Are freedom must exist but does this freedom involve the possibility of loosing it all? Where there be temptations to lead us to such an error? When damned it is eternally and when saved it is eternally and so there could be a chance of falling once saved and in heaven.

Let me check and see what the bible says on whether being saved is eternal, I know souls are damned eternally…bb

Here we go:

John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Hebrews 5:9: “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”

 

[mamlukman]

Put me in the “free will ends at death” column.

I think God gave humans free will–the power to sin–because he wanted them to be independent. Once I gave the example of buying a puppy–would you want puppy #1 who would love you unconditionally, no matter how you treated it, or puppy #2 whose love you would have to earn by treating it well. You could substitute husband/wife for “puppy” if you like. I think most of us would want puppy #2, where we had to earn its love: i.e., give the puppy free will.

Free will is the reason we can’t “prove” the existence of God; if we could “prove” it mathematically or logically, everyone would be compelled to believe. So God made sure we had evidence, but not proof.

But at death, we have “proof” of the existence of God. So we “have” to believe in God. Thus no free will–or, to put it another way, no one would exercise free will by not believing in God.

Why Satan believed he was the equal of God is another question, and I don’t have an answer to that one except that clearly Satan wasn’t as smart as he thought he was.

 

[AKDee]

I have heard that at death we enter a state where time doesn’t affect us. So we don’t lose free will but we’ve made the choices we’re going to make at that point. That’s the explanation I’ve heard for why people that go to hell can’t get out, ever. Not because God wouldn’t have mercy on them if they repented, but that they won’t repent because they made their choice.

Of course I have no idea if that’s true, but it’s what I’ve heard.

 

[Elizium23]

Of course we have free will in Heaven. It is manifested every time we pray to a saint and they intercede for us with God. He is not a puppet-master, pulling all their strings so they do exactly what he wants, the saints are exercising their free will.

Is there free will in Heaven?

Therefore, while we retain our free will in heaven, we naturally choose to love the Lord. Now it would be contrary to who we are to choose to sin and thereby to reject this perfect life, truth and love that is God. For example, an eighth grade student asked me once, “Can God murder someone?” “God could because He can do all things,” I replied. “But God would not because to murder is evil and to do evil would be against His all-good nature.” Likewise, in the original question, “Is it possible, but not probable at all because of the beatitude we share in heaven with God.”

 

[ichabode]

Freewill in Heaven.
God at some point suspended or allowed the Angels to exercise freewill. At this time Lucifer desired more desired more honor than he deserved, and led other Angels away who either had the same desire, or were complicit in giving Lucifier more honor than what he was owed. At this time Angles could rise or fall in their station according to obedience (love) to God, and proper response in their relationship with each other. Thus, Michael “The Archangel” holds a position that is above is choir. The same is true of Raphael, and Gabriel. And, Angles that were Seraphim and Cherubim have fallen below the choirs of Powers, Principalities, Archangels, and Guardian Angels etc.

After the time of testing or trial the Angles fixed in the dignity and glory in relationship to God. As we make our decisions in time, therefore change, as that is what time is the measurement of change. The Angels after the test made their decision without change outside of time. Therefore it is permanent. To say they have had or will have freewill is to place the decision in time/change. The Angles made their decision once for all if you will and never looked back. It is not subject to change. This is one reason why scripture shows Satan as ever vigilant roaring about like a lion. He has not lost energy or desire and will never. At his fall he is the same. The same mission the same intensity and desires. The same is with all the Angels.

When we die will be judged once and for all. There is only one judgement for salvation, and that occurs at the moment we die. It is then will be judged to Heaven or Hell. If Heaven and you are perfect with no attachment to sin whatsoever you will enter Heaven, and if you do have attachment to sin you will be cleansed of that before entering Heaven. The bathing or cleansing process is known as Purgatory.

When we die the state we are in at that moment (before judgement) is the everlasting act of our freewill. As sound goes forth and does not stop. Our dignity and glory aka our closeness to God is not remeasured. We enter into eviternity to be technical. As eternity is strictly speaking an expression of state reserved to God alone.

To sum up all persons (God, Angels and Humans) have freewill in Heaven. That freewill is as one poster stated outside of time or change, and therefore is not altered or diminished in any way. This is also why in the OT you find prophets requesting God not to send his Angels because Angels do the will of God and are not persuaded to be altered. We on the other hand in this life do not see Justice and Mercy perfectly, and will “negotiate” with God, and perform His will in part, but in the afterlife in full.

 

[eazyduzit]

Put me in the “free will ends at death” column.

I think God gave humans free will–the power to sin–because he wanted them to be independent. Once I gave the example of buying a puppy–would you want puppy #1 who would love you unconditionally, no matter how you treated it, or puppy #2 whose love you would have to earn by treating it well. You could substitute husband/wife for “puppy” if you like. I think most of us would want puppy #2, where we had to earn its love: i.e., give the puppy free will.

Free will is the reason we can’t “prove” the existence of God; if we could “prove” it mathematically or logically, everyone would be compelled to believe. So God made sure we had evidence, but not proof.

But at death, we have “proof” of the existence of God. So we “have” to believe in God. Thus no free will–or, to put it another way, no one would exercise free will by not believing in God.

Why Satan believed he was the equal of God is another question, and I don’t have an answer to that one except that clearly Satan wasn’t as smart as he thought he was.

You got it exactly the reverse.

Free will is actually the ability to not sin .This is what God gave to Adam. Man no longer has the LIBERTY to not sin. This represents a net loss of freedom.

True, there are no agnostics in hell.

 

[marymary1975]

From what I have spoken with priests and everything I have been thought, yes our free will ends at death. Our soul and our physi all body are not separate entities, they are one unit so when our body dies, being free will an act of the consciousness, free will also dies. It is a little difficult to explain but it dies. This is the reason why you cannot repent after death but you have until your last minute to repent and it is the reason why it is ourselves who choose our destiny after death based on our decisions during our life.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God? It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

It would seem - what sayest thou?

It is possible that having experienced evil and the effect of evil so keenly those who might arrive in Heaven may be wise enough to discern which free choices might make the most sense to ensure harmony…much as an adult might have clearly learned from childhood that throwing sand at one’s opponent in the playground is rarely the best means of resolving a dispute…for do we not all often make free will decisions that keep others from needlessly confronting harm that we could otherwise deal out without concern…?

 

[Elizium23]

Fourteen Questions About Heaven
by Peter Kreeft

1. Will we be free to sin in heaven?
   Here is another dilemma. If we answer no, we seem to lack something: free will. If we answer yes, we lack something else: moral perfection. The Heavenly question thus lands us squarely into an earthly and present issue concerning the nature of freedom and of morality and may help us to puncture one of modernity’s most pervasive and destructive illusions: the association of freedom with rebellion and of obedience with unfreedom.

How can we preserve both free will and sinlessness in Heaven? Once again, God is our model and solution: we solve this pseudoproblem in the same way God does. He is both free and sinless. How? Let us judge our freedom by His, rather than vice versa.

What do we mean by “freedom”? Sometimes (1) political freedom, freedom from tyranny, oppression, or the denial of our rights; sometimes (2) physical power, ability to act, freedom from hindrance; and sometimes (3) spiritual power to choose (“free will”). Of course we will have all three in Heaven, but why won’t we be able to sin, since we will have free will?

Because we will also have a fourth freedom, the most important one of all: freedom from sin, from what makes us not ourselves. We will be free to be the true selves God designed us to be, free to be determined by God. This determination does not remove our freedom but is our freedom, for even now freedom is not simply indetermination; it is freedom to be determined by final causes (purposes) rather than efficient causes (things and events that already exist and act upon us). Our free will means that our present is determined by our future rather than by our past. Final causes are at present only mental pictures and desires. To say we are determined by final causes means that we, like God, create by knowing; that as creative artists our knowledge antecedes and determines the truth of its object, the work of art, rather than conforming to its object, as scientific and empirical knowledge does. But we are objects to God (though subjects to the world); we too, therefore, are true only when we conform to God’s knowledge of us, God’s artistic plan for our identity. Since our highest freedom means freedom to be ourselves, we are most free when we are most obedient to God’s will, which expresses His idea of us. Thus freedom and obedience coincide. To obey God is to be free in the most radical sense: free to be me, free from inauthenticity, free from false being, free from the alien within, not just free from the alien without, the oppressor.

 

[Bahman]

Yeah, but once they fell they could not repent.

Why not? Are you deciding instead of them? God’s forgiveness as I understand is free for everybody.

It seems to be that Satan and his devils will never repent and neither will the souls of the damned because they cannot change their disposition even if forgiveness was offered to them.

How such thing could be true? Perfect evil does not exist in your system of belief hence there is always the possibility for even Satan to repent.

Ummmm… but can the saved and the good angels fall or is is their disposition now fixed?

Bad things could always happen if there is the possibility. The fall of Angels happened once so I am wondering what could prohibit the fall again if they are free? This situation is already discussed in the former post which leads to falling forever which is paradoxical in your system of belief since there can never be a final judgment at all.

Are freedom must exist but does this freedom involve the possibility of loosing it all?

Yes if you accept the fact the very fact that any falling Angle cannot possibly repent. So that is a possibility that God is alone since the Angles can always fall.

Where there be temptations to lead us to such an error?

That is another paradox in your system of belief which is related to origin of evil: If God is good and creation is good too then how angels could possibly perform an evil action in the state of perfection in Heaven?

When damned it is eternally and when saved it is eternally and so there could be a chance of falling once saved and in heaven.

Is that a question? What is the meaning damned eternally and saved eternal? People are free to choose unless their freedoms are confiscated from God. This means that those who are saved are eternally enslaved and those who are damned are eternally cursed, both acts enslaving and cursing are evil which this is against God’s divine justice. Do you mean that God is going to play a mind control?

Let me check and see what the bible says on whether being saved is eternal, I know souls are damned eternally…bb

Here we go:

John 10:27-29

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Hebrews 5:9: “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.”

I am so sorry to tell you that your system of belief is paradoxical. You cannot possibly be save eternally unless your freedom is confiscated? Please read the previous comment.

 

[808Catholic]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God? It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

It would seem - what sayest thou?

I’m going to lean towards “no.” Upon death, God in His mercy will ask everyone if they accept Him as Lord and King. We have one final choice to make because of God’s love for us. This is what I heard from a reliable Catholic source and it rings true to me as there must be people who died without having a final chance to confess their sins, receive absolution, and complete their penance.

After our response to God, then “yes”, we will not have free will. We either choose to be with Him, in that case, He brings our souls to heaven or remits our souls to purgatory for refining, or we choose total rejection and are sent to hell.

 

[tonyrey]

Without free will we would be incapable of love. We have to able to choose to love; otherwise it is something over which we have no control and for which we are not responsible. Jesus said “If you love me keep my commandments” which implies that it depends on us whether we obey or disobey. We have to commit ourselves, not automatically but voluntarily by using our willpower even if it takes an effort. It follows that our free will doesn’t vanish when we die. We are still the same persons as we are on earth. We have the same identity determined by what we choose to be, not by what happens to us. We are creators like God and not puppets manipulated by events beyond our control. Our outstanding attribute is our power of self-determination - without which we wouldn’t be persons. If being made in the image and likeness of God means anything it means we are independent and capable of creative love, not just in this world but for all eternity…

 

[Bahman]

Without free will we would be incapable of love…

Love is part of our nature whereas free will is an attribute of consciousness. We could of course fall in love without using our free will. We can of course reject or accept love following an ethical system which we have to develop personally simply because we are intellectual beings. Following others is permissible while you are judging your system of belief. You should drop any claimed divine system of belief when you find a single error within. You should try to fix the human made system of belief and proceed properly. To do this properly, you need to understand yourself (this requires critical thinking), enjoy life and have respect for other beings, you then need to be honest inside and outside so you could develop your critical thinking properly. The fruit of this process is the wisdom which is gained gradually over time.

 

[mikekle]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God? It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

It would seem - what sayest thou?

This topic seems to come up a lot on here, Its my belief that free will is a gift from God to us, being that we are immortal beings upon creation, only our earthly bodies are temporary, after our death, they return to dust and have no importance anymore.

With the above said, really, our souls should still retain the gift of free will, if we do not, then free will, was just a temporary gift with limitations.

 

[fhansen]

If we come to know and witness the glory of God, let’s say Judgement Day - then how could we will any thing but the will of God? It would seem that free will ends when our life in this world ends. At least in the main and I am not saying that we would be like robots. Once you know the Good the will of the person will be united to the will of God.

This may be the reason why there is a last judgement - because after that people will not sin - as they would will the good and their glorified bodies would be in harmony with their disposition. Of course, I am referring to those fortunate souls who avoided hell.

It would seem - what sayest thou?

We are here to “develop” our wills, with the help of revelation and grace, with the help of God, IOW, we are here to learn the “value” of God, the value of love, as the Supreme Good, and this is a process that we grow in. As Trent taught we can grow in justice; our justification is not a static, one-time event. As we draw increasingly nearer to God, choosing life over death, good over evil, as we grow in love, becoming transformed into the image of God, our wills are already becoming more firm, more solidified in conviction or orientation.

And by our resulting actions we are judged in the end, based on what we did with what we were given, with more expected from those who were given more. And if our wills need further refining, then purgatory can provide the finish work. Either way the Beatific Vision is actually the reward for those who’ve striven valiantly, who’ve run the good race, and with that vision our conviction is no longer driven by faith and hope; we now can walk by direct sight, having finally appropriated that which was once a relatively distant and vague prize that drew us; we’ve obtained all we could ever desire; we’re captivated, enthralled, by the sheer, infintely boundless goodness of God’s love and our love for Him.

 

[808Catholic]

Love is part of our nature whereas free will is an attribute of consciousness. We could of course fall in love without using our free will. We can of course reject or accept love following an ethical system which we have to develop personally simply because we are intellectual beings. Following others is permissible while you are judging your system of belief. You should drop any claimed divine system of belief when you find a single error within. You should try to fix the human made system of belief and proceed properly. To do this properly, you need to understand yourself (this requires critical thinking), enjoy life and have respect for other beings, you then need to be honest inside and outside so you could develop your critical thinking properly. The fruit of this process is the wisdom which is gained gradually over time.

To clarify your statement above: you believe we, as humans, should work to fix the errors of human thought yet we should abandon any religion once we find a single error?

 

[tonyrey]

Love is part of our nature whereas free will is an attribute of consciousness. We could of course fall in love without using our free will. We can of course reject or accept love following an ethical system which we have to develop personally simply because we are intellectual beings. Following others is permissible while you are judging your system of belief. You should drop any claimed divine system of belief when you find a single error within. You should try to fix the human made system of belief and proceed properly. To do this properly, you need to understand yourself (this requires critical thinking), enjoy life and have respect for other beings, you then need to be honest inside and outside so you could develop your critical thinking properly. The fruit of this process is the wisdom which is gained gradually over time.

Falling in love without using our free will is a precious and beautiful experience but the highest form of love (to which romantic love often leads) is unselfish love for anyone who needs our help. Otherwise I agree with you.

 

[Bahman]

To clarify your statement above: you believe we, as humans, should work to fix the errors of human thought yet we should abandon any religion once we find a single error?

Yes since religion is work of God and should be error free.