Does 'free-will' end at death?

[Abba]

We don’t **know **who is in hell or heaven. We know his (Judas) actions reflect his rejection of Christ and that’s a mortal sin. What happened between his suicide (another mortal sin) and his personal judgement is between his soul and God…

We know some of the ones that are in heaven for sure - they are the ones that have been recognized as saints by the Church, e.g. Saint Pope John Paul II The Great.
We don’t know of anyone who is in hell. The Church has not declared anyone in particular to be in hell.

No one knows with certainly if Judas Iscariot is in hell. There have been speculations, like that of Saint Augustine - but that is what it has been - speculations. Saint Augustine deduced that because Judas despaired he is in hell as he did not trust in the mercy of God. In turn, Saint Augustine and others have influenced people, including artists, sculptures etc… to depict Judas in the most evil way and in hell.

Father Fortea says that Judas is in hell. He says that although the Church has not declared him in hell, the Church has allowed for him to be presented as in hell and has not stopped it. Well, I disagree with Father Fortea’s reasoning in this point because the Church has allowed things to happen and has not declared them incorrect. That, however, does not make them correct nor true.

For instance, according to Saint Thomas Aquinas, a fetus does not have a soul and is not counted as a life. Well, Aquinas’ teachings influenced generations of Catholics, yet, since the 20th century Catholics are arguing that the fetus is indeed completely human and has a soul from the moment of conception. Well, for all those centuries since Aquinas, the Church did not rebuttal him and even elevated him as a Doctor of the Church.

So, the fact that the Church has not corrected a particular thinking or understanding that is trending does not mean that it backs it up.

We do not know where Judas is and Saint Augustine may have been very surprised in heaven.

:twocents:

 

[808Catholic]

We know some of the ones that are in heaven for sure - they are the ones that have been recognized as saints by the Church, e.g. Saint Pope John Paul II The Great.
We don’t know of anyone who is in hell. The Church has not declared anyone in particular to be in hell.

No one knows with certainly if Judas Iscariot is in hell. There have been speculations, like that of Saint Augustine - but that is what it has been - speculations. Saint Augustine deduced that because Judas despaired he is in hell as he did not trust in the mercy of God. In turn, Saint Augustine and others have influenced people, including artists, sculptures etc… to depict Judas in the most evil way and in hell.

Father Fortea says that Judas is in hell. He says that although the Church has not declared him in hell, the Church has allowed for him to be presented as in hell and has not stopped it. Well, I disagree with Father Fortea’s reasoning in this point because the Church has allowed things to happen and has not declared them incorrect. That, however, does not make them correct nor true.

For instance, according to Saint Thomas Aquinas, a fetus does not have a soul and is not counted as a life. Well, Aquinas’ teachings influenced generations of Catholics, yet, in the 21st century Catholics are arguing that the fetus is indeed completely human and has a soul from the moment of conception. Well, for all those centuries since Aquinas, the Church did not rebuttal him and even elevated him as a Doctor of the Church.

So, the fact that the Church has not corrected a particular thinking or understanding that is trending does not mean that it backs it up.

We do not know where Judas is and Saint Augustine may have been very surprised in heaven.

:twocents:

Love your post! I personally believe we’ll ALL be in for a big surprise (or two) when/if we get to heaven! As God is beyond our mortal comprehension, so must His creation of heaven be. He gave us glimpses and grants a few a brief “tour” but I think heaven will be VERY different than what any of us can even imagine.

God bless you.

 

[Abba]

Love your post! .

Shucks. Thank you.

 

[tonyrey]

True. We don’t **know **who is in hell or heaven. We know his (Judas) actions reflect his rejection of Christ and that’s a mortal sin. What happened between his suicide (another mortal sin) and his personal judgement is between his soul and God.

We continue to pray for all souls in Purgatory. Amen.

Suicide is not a mortal sin if a person’s state of mind is unbalanced as it clearly was in the case of Judas. To hang oneself is the act of a desperate man not a cunning traitor. Nor is it certain why he betrayed Jesus. Nothing he had done previously indicates that it was a premeditated crime. It is quite possible he became possessed and was not responsible for his treachery, a view which is consistent with his dramatic change of heart when the full implications of what he had done dawned on him. Only God knows the truth and we should not presume to pass judgment on anyone, let alone when there is such a large element of doubt.

 

[Abba]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2282…

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

 

[Abba]

It is quite possible he became possessed and was not responsible for his treachery, a view which is consistent with his dramatic change of heart when the full implications of what he had done dawned on him. Only God knows the truth and we should not presume to pass judgment on anyone, let alone when there is such a large element of doubt.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

 

[tonyrey]

Suicide is not a mortal sin if a person’s state of mind is unbalanced as it clearly was in the case of Judas. To hang oneself is the act of a desperate man not a cunning traitor. Nor is it certain why he betrayed Jesus. Nothing he had done previously indicates that it was a premeditated crime. It is quite possible he became possessed and was not responsible for his treachery, a view which is consistent with his dramatic change of heart when the full implications of what he had done dawned on him. Only God knows the truth and we should not presume to pass judgment on anyone, let alone when there is such a large element of doubt.

Such despair is not a sign of malevolence but of misguided repentance. All he could think of was the “innocent blood” that had been shed due to his collaboration with his Master’s enemies. It was an obsession that must have driven him out of his mind. The only thing he could do to express his remorse was to return the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders (who were quite indifferent and had no sense of guilt whatsoever). But that was not enough to give Judas peace of mind. Nothing would ever silence his conscience as long as he lived on this earth. There was nothing left for him to do but kill himself.

Not to feel compassion for him is inhuman, however much we detest what he did. Jesus was right in saying it would have been better if he hadn’t been born because He knew Judas was going to be ceaselessly tortured by the thought that he could never atone for what he had done. If no one else felt compassion for him Jesus certainly did. Since He forgave those who crucified Him how could He not forgive one of His own followers? Otherwise He wouldn’t have told us we shall be forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us. There is little doubt Judas would be in Hell if he hadn’t regretted what he had done.

That simple fact helps us to see the terrible tragedy in its true perspective. He did regret what he had done and tried to express his contrition in the only way he could - by sacrificing his own life for his Master. Legalists think it was just another crime he committed but they overlook his motive and that is what counts more than anything else. We are not damned because we are guilty of folly and ignorance but because of hatred and lack of love. I believe Judas loved his Master so much he followed His example and in that way redeemed himself even though he could never atone for his crime. There was nothing else he could have done except lead a life of penance and self-flagellation but even that wouldn’t have satisfied him. Like his Master Judas chose to die but in very different circumstances. Jesus was totally innocent and Judas was guilty of the worst crime in history but even so he was unwittingly instrumental in our redemption. That thought should be some consolation for him if it is possible for him to be consoled. I believe it is because with God all things are possible and, above all, He is infinitely merciful.

 

[tonyrey]

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”

That is certainly evidence of possession.

 

[tonyrey]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2282…

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

In her wisdom. There is little doubt Judas was psychologically disturbed when he realised the full significance of what he had done. In fact it seems an understatement…
To return to the topic, his free will seems to have been overcome by despair but before he died who knows what occurred in his mind? Only God… and Judas of course.

 

[808Catholic]

Suicide is not a mortal sin if a person’s state of mind is unbalanced as it clearly was in the case of Judas. To hang oneself is the act of a desperate man not a cunning traitor. Nor is it certain why he betrayed Jesus. Nothing he had done previously indicates that it was a premeditated crime. It is quite possible he became possessed and was not responsible for his treachery, a view which is consistent with his dramatic change of heart when the full implications of what he had done dawned on him. Only God knows the truth and we should not presume to pass judgment on anyone, let alone when there is such a large element of doubt.

That’s why we pray for all souls in Purgatory.

 

[Abba]

I have placed a magnifying glass on that little interaction of Jesus with Judas. And the question comes up: why? Why didn’t Jesus do anything to stop Satan from possessing Judas? Why did Jesus Pray for Peter but, did not prevent Satan from entering Judas?

Pardon me for lately constantly quoting Saint John Vianney and Padre Fortea, it’s just that I am reading their writings etc…

Well, Father Fortea says that Judas had used up the graces from God which God provides to lead people in the right direction. And, there comes a point when it is pointless to provide more grace because the soul is so determined… Fortea says that the last grace Judas received was when the Lord gave him the piece of bread. I must say, that He did so to point him out - so that doesn’t really hold. But, there is the idea of using up the grace which still holds because if the bread was not the last grace it does not deny that there was one previous to it.

The ran-out-of-grace idea provides an explanation for why Jesus did not prevent Satan from entering Judas Iscariot. In essence, Our Lord in that case, left him to his own downfall - which God does do and as He did with Satan.

Jesus calls Judas a ‘devil’ in John 6:70 and there is this:

“The Son of man goeth as it is written of Him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24).

“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born” (Mark 14:21).

My position is that I don’t know if Judas is in heaven, hell or purgatory.
+++
So, does free will end at death? The whole idea about getting limited graces because after a point the soul is so determined in its way that there is no return, seems to imply that free will ends at death…

 

[tonyrey]

I have placed a magnifying glass on that little interaction of Jesus with Judas. And the question comes up: why? Why didn’t Jesus do anything to stop Satan from possessing Judas? Why did Jesus Pray for Peter but, did not prevent Satan from entering Judas?

Pardon me for lately constantly quoting Saint John Vianney and Padre Fortea, it’s just that I am reading their writings etc…

Well, Father Fortea says that Judas had used up the graces from God which God provides to lead people in the right direction. And, there comes a point when it is pointless to provide more grace because the soul is so determined… Fortea says that the last grace Judas received was when the Lord gave him the piece of bread. I must say, that He did so to point him out - so that doesn’t really hold. But, there is the idea of using up the grace which still holds because if the bread was not the last grace it does not deny that there was one previous to it.

The ran-out-of-grace idea provides an explanation for why Jesus did not prevent Satan from entering Judas Iscariot. In essence, Our Lord in that case, left him to his own downfall - which God does do and as He did with Satan.

Jesus calls Judas a ‘devil’ in John 6:70 and there is this:

“The Son of man goeth as it is written of Him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24).

“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born” (Mark 14:21).

My position is that I don’t know if Judas is in heaven, hell or purgatory.
+++
So, does free will end at death? The whole idea about getting limited graces because after a point the soul is so determined in its way that there is no return, seems to imply that free will ends at death…

If Jesus hadn’t been betrayed we wouldn’t have been redeemed! Why did Jesus choose Judas if He knew he would be a traitor? Judas was fulfilling a prophecy:“Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted,
who ate of my bread, has lifted the heel against me.” Psalm 41:9
He was therefore an essential element in our redemption. Jesus referred to him as a devil that doesn’t mean he was** necessarily** a devil:

Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was one of the twelve… Luke 22:3-4

“The devil had already put it into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot to betray him.” John 13:1-2

" After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him." John 13:21-27

There is little doubt he was possessed in view of his subsequent sense of guilt, despair and suicide - which are not characteristics of a fundamentally evil person. A devil never feels guilty because he puts himself first and sees no reason to consider others. There is plenty of evidence of that mentality in this world, let alone the next. Judas repented of what he had done and that is all that matters. He couldn’t forgive himself but that was not a sin; it was due to the realisation of the enormity of his crime when his Master was being tortured and crucified. He may even have thought Jesus would save Himself with His miraculous power because the Jews believed the Messiah would liberate them from the Romans and establish his kingdom on earth. That dream was shattered and he was confronted with the harsh truth that his Master was dead. He no longer had anything to live for and all his expectations had been destroyed. It was only fitting that he too should hang from a tree and die like a criminal. He may even have thought they would be at least united in death. He was no longer accepted by the other Apostles and like His Master despised and rejected by everyone. He believed he had nothing to live for and acted accordingly.

Only God knows whether Judas did so of his own free will or whether Satan compelled him to kill himself. It doesn’t really matter. Evil dominated those events but its victory was short-lived. As Tertullian pointed out, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Church. Two thousand years later it has spread throughout the world and the teaching of Jesus has profoundly influenced our civilisation with the universally accepted principles of liberty, equality and - above all - fraternity. Without a heavenly Father there is no reason why we should all be brothers and sisters - or welcome refugees from war-torn countries into our homes…

 

[Michael19682]

Jeremiah and the chief priests in the same category, sharing the same words?

Mt 27 9-10 "Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites, and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.”

The chief priests had just told Judas to “look to it yourself.” Was suicide a formality/custom/self imposed punishment for the betrayer of innocent blood? that the chief priests thought the blood money was for Judas, whom they might have predicted would kill himself for his betrayal; a kind of perverted, ethically relativistic manipulation of the fallen apostle? “You betrayed your own master, now do what you have to do.”
If the above is true to form of the chief priests and Judas died without consent of his will and by coercion then all we have to go on are the pieces of his character. Someone who never had free will in a matter cannot renounce that free will, can he?

Then Judas the Iscariot, one [of] his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said,
5 “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?”
6 He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. 7 So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. 8 You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.”

 

[tonyrey]

Jeremiah and the chief priests in the same category, sharing the same words?

Mt 27 9-10 "Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites, and they paid it out for the potter’s field just as the Lord had commanded me.”

The chief priests had just told Judas to “look to it yourself.” Was suicide a formality/custom/self imposed punishment for the betrayer of innocent blood? that the chief priests thought the blood money was for Judas, whom they might have predicted would kill himself for his betrayal; a kind of perverted, ethically relativistic manipulation of the fallen apostle? “You betrayed your own master, now do what you have to do.”
If the above is true to form of the chief priests and Judas died without consent of his will and by coercion then all we have to go on are the pieces of his character. Someone who never had free will in a matter cannot renounce that free will, can he?

Then Judas the Iscariot, one [of] his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said,
5 “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?”
6 He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. 7 So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial. 8 You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.”

Since the chief priests obviously had no sense of guilt for having condemned Jesus to execution they were not justified in condemning Judas for having betrayed his Master. If they hadn’t paid him for information he wouldn’t have sinned! In addition, instead of forgiving him, as Jesus did, they made themselves guilty of two deaths - and subsequently of more deaths when they persecuted His followers. If we are to judge by appearances they are far more likely to be in Hell - but then we are ignoring the words of Jesus: “Judge not lest ye be judged".