Does 'free-will' end at death?

[Bahman]

I can certainly agree with this.

Good.

What I cannot agree with is the notion that we can always be honest with ourselves. Arrogance can slant our understanding to suit ourselves, and with arrogance, whether we like it or not, we are not likely to be honest.

That is the only real practice: To be honest with yourself and others. The rest, finding the truth, is challenging task and it quite personal.

Unless we are willing to submit to a higher authority than ourselves, we have made ourselves infallible with that very arrogance we might think is honesty.

I don’t understand how submitting to a higher authority could help us to be honest. Being honest is challenging and it is a personal task.

 

[808Catholic]

They don’t choose to suffer. They choose to be independent knowing they will suffer but they are prepared to pay the price. Hell is not a divine trap but a diabolical invitation…

I respectfully disagree. Hell was created by God out of His respect for our free will. He told us what His Will is; He told us what we must do to gain heaven; He even sent His Son to live a human life and show us the ideal way to life eternal. At the end of our lives, we have a choice and we will know full well what the consequences of our actions and choices will have. God does not desire us to choose hell but He allows it because we choose it.

 

[808Catholic]

For what purpose? What you gain when you worship God?

That is correct hence your understanding of reality and God could be incorrect as well if we accept your assessment. So we have no way to get anywhere unless we could improve our understanding reality and our intellects are the only things that we could strive to. This means that we have to put our believes under sharp investigation of critical thinking. Hence a system of belief is either error free or not after a full investigation. This means that the claim that a system of belief is from God is wrong once we find an error in it otherwise the system is human made hence it is not error free and always have the room for improvement.

Please read previous comments.

Existence of God is only a claim unless we face Him. We however need to improve our intellectual abilities in order to test our experiences whether it is physical or spiritual otherwise anybody with supreme ability can claim that s/he is God.

@Bahman
I respectfully request you refrain from launching into another topic. This thread has a specific question that is being discussed. Your tangential discussion is leading some into the defense of Catholic/Christian faith or apologetics. If that is your intent, that’s fine though that’s not helping the OP who posed the original question. Please open a separate thread and I’m sure we’ll all be sure to help you understand our position better. God bless you.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

Well, if they didnt know, or didnt like God in their earthly lives, why would they suddenly wish to live with him? Thats why its said people walk willingly into hell, hell is locked from the inside, people CHOOSE hell because they desire an existence without God in it, just like their earthly lives.

If an orphaned baby later discovers that her father is actually alive, might she not still wish to live with him in spite of having always thought him to not exist…? Further, what benefits might Hell confer upon those allegedly locking themselves therein? For is a simple expectation that God does not exist to be equated with a strong desire to live an eternity with the basest members of mankind?

Finally, how might one consider the following quote given the above context?

Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

(emphasis mine)

 

[Charlemagne_III]

I don’t understand how submitting to a higher authority could help us to be honest. Being honest is challenging and it is a personal task.

Anyone who does not submit to a higher authority is declaring himself as the highest authority.

There is no greater arrogance than this.

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.” St. Thomas Aquinas

 

[Rohzek]

I would take the position that free will does not end with death. Now, then this seems to contradict eternal rewards, etc. since one could feasibly change their mind. However, remember that “could” is only subjunctive and not absolute. Just because someone could change their mind doesn’t mean that they will.

As for the Final Judgment, one could alternatively interpret the Final Judgment as merely the last judgment of this age. Whatever comes next we have no way of knowing.

Just a side note, I think trying to save free will as we know it in the Heavenly abode by saying, “Oh well yeah of course they do because they exist outside time,” is a bit spurious. Classical and Absolute Time don’t exist. It’s a subjectivity part of this material world, as the Theory of Relativity so clearly demonstrates, specifically the phenomenon known as Time Dilation.

 

[tonyrey]

Judas may have repented before or as he died. Only God knows who is in Hell. The rest is sheer speculation…

The whole world might disagree with me but it doesn’t follow that Judas is in Hell. The fact that he killed himself is overwhelming evidence that he bitterly regretted what he had done. It seems very harsh to condemn a man who was tortured by remorse and obsessed by his guilt at having betrayed “innocent blood”. I’m sure God is infinitely more merciful than many of His creatures:

“Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

If we are to commit the sin of condemning people without knowing their state of mind when they die Herod and Caiaphas **seem **more likely candidates…

 

[Elizium23]

The whole world might disagree with me but it doesn’t follow that Judas is in Hell. The fact that he killed himself is overwhelming evidence that he bitterly regretted what he had done. It seems very harsh to condemn a man who was tortured by remorse and obsessed by his guilt at having betrayed “innocent blood”. I’m sure God is infinitely more merciful than many of His creatures:

“Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

If we are to commit the sin of condemning people without knowing their state of mind when they die Herod and Caiaphas **seem **more likely candidates…

You quote deceptively, my friend. Nobody said anything about Judas in the posts I responded to. I will not continue this conversation, as it is off-topic and you have changed the subject out from under me, without my consent or knowledge.

 

[NovusFidem]

The main problem is that how God could possibly convince us that s/he is the creator?

Maybe He already did, but people refuse to acknowledge it? Perhaps we are expecting a giant bearded old man, but that’s not really what God is?

Jesus revealed himself, and yet some people looked at Him and said “Nah, but nice try, bro”. Even the Apostles had their moments as non-believers; they refused the idea that God (in the Person of Jesus) could die in such a humiliating way.

We have a tendency of not-believing things that are right under our nose. Just look at how many refuse to acknowledge evolution. Why, look at how many refuse gravity (seriously, look up “intelligent falling”) .

If people can refuse even the obvious, why not the ‘subtle’? You might just as well have missed God passing… (and staying around)

 

[mamlukman]

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.” St. Thomas Aquinas

Thanks for that–one of the best quotations I’ve come across.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Thanks for that–one of the best quotations I’ve come across.

Would that all theologians could be so humble!

 

[tonyrey]

You quote deceptively, my friend. Nobody said anything about Judas in the posts I responded to. I will not continue this conversation, as it is off-topic and you have changed the subject out from under me, without my consent or knowledge.

You stated “Eastern Orthodox tradition would disagree with you” in response to
my post:

Judas may have repented before or as he died. Only God knows who is in Hell. The rest is sheer speculation…

 

[WT1]

Free will is overrated and exhausting, I’d gladly trade it for God to direct me in all that I did.

 

[Elizium23]

We won’t. Free will is revolutionized in Heaven. The holy ones only choose what is good, what is God’s will. But they are still free to choose. That’s all the difference.

But hey, the wicked thief hung right next to Jesus and mocked him. I don’t think there’s any doubt about where he ended up that day.

There is. He may have repented before or as he died. Only God knows who is in Hell. The rest is sheer speculation…

You stated “Eastern Orthodox tradition would disagree with you” in response to
my post:

That is NOT what you wrote! Do you really have no ability to go back in the thread and read your actual words? Nobody said ANYTHING about Judas until you intentionally misquoted youself. I am talking about the wicked thief crucified with Jesus.

For crying out loud, pay attention!

 

[Michael19682]

The whole world might disagree with me but it doesn’t follow that Judas is in Hell. The fact that he killed himself is overwhelming evidence that he bitterly regretted what he had done. It seems very harsh to condemn a man who was tortured by remorse and obsessed by his guilt at having betrayed “innocent blood”. I’m sure God is infinitely more merciful than many of His creatures:

“Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

If we are to commit the sin of condemning people without knowing their state of mind when they die Herod and Caiaphas **seem **more likely candidates…

I personally agree as you say on the part about it following as to states of mind. Judas’ actions must appear mindless. But all people have Luke 22:22 to understand. As you pointed out, the whole world interprets this “woe” as hell.

 

[tonyrey]

I personally agree as you say on the part about it following as to states of mind. Judas’ actions must appear mindless. But all people have Luke 22:22 to understand. As you pointed out, the whole world interprets this “woe” as hell.

The “whole world” need to give reasons for their interpretation. It seems far more credible that Judas suffered so much agony of guilt he was in a state of utter despair and wished he had never been born. Doesn’t that fulfil his Master’s prophecy? Can you imagine a worse state of mind? It shows above all that Judas had a conscience, bitterly regretted what he had done, knew he could never atone for his terrible sin, could never face the other Apostles and couldn’t bear to live with himself even after he died. He wanted to disappear and leave no trace that he had ever existed knowing there can be no greater crime to betray the man who had healed the sick and loved. Is there a worse punishment than that?

 

[Michael19682]

The “whole world” need to give reasons for their interpretation. It seems far more credible that Judas suffered so much agony of guilt he was in a state of utter despair and wished he had never been born. Doesn’t that fulfil his Master’s prophecy? Can you imagine a worse state of mind? It shows above all that Judas had a conscience, bitterly regretted what he had done, knew he could never atone for his terrible sin, could never face the other Apostles and couldn’t bear to live with himself even after he died. He wanted to disappear and leave no trace that he had ever existed knowing there can be no greater crime to betray the man who had healed the sick and loved. Is there a worse punishment than that?

Yes. Amazing post.
The best I can to advocate for the world is to draw attention to how steeped it has become in naturalistic analogies and reasoning. If this tendency be a part of the world’s growing dependence on Gospel truth for survival, then consequences therefore are rightfully seen as good. So we have people identifying with their bodies and being as natural things with a “wisdom inflow” of spirit.
And they have been taught to say:
“Nature abhors a vacuum,” to which they add,
ergo, Hell must not be empty. Blaming it on Judas? Well, he fills the vacuum. Seeing hell full, they feel safer. Thus they reveal also their fear of the lord. Which fear is again, the beginning of wisdom.

 

[tonyrey]

Yes. Amazing post.
The best I can to advocate for the world is to draw attention to how steeped it has become in naturalistic analogies and reasoning. If this tendency be a part of the world’s growing dependence on Gospel truth for survival, then consequences therefore are rightfully seen as good. So we have people identifying with their bodies and being as natural things with a “wisdom inflow” of spirit.
And they have been taught to say:
“Nature abhors a vacuum,” to which they add,
ergo, Hell must not be empty. Blaming it on Judas? Well, he fills the vacuum. Seeing hell full, they feel safer. Thus they reveal also their fear of the lord. Which fear is again, the beginning of wisdom.

I like “Seeing hell full, they feel safer”! As if there is no room for more…

We do tend to make excuses in favour of ourselves. It doesn’t mean we go to Hell but we may well do a good stint in Purgatory…

 

[tonyrey]

That is NOT what you wrote! Do you really have no ability to go back in the thread and read your actual words? Nobody said ANYTHING about Judas until you intentionally misquoted youself. I am talking about the wicked thief crucified with Jesus.

For crying out loud, pay attention!

There is a contradiction between “intentionally” and “pay attention”.

I made a mistake but your rage is uncalled for - as if you have never made any…

Even though I made a mistake it doesn’t make the slightest difference to the reason for rejecting the “dogma” that the bad thief is in Hell. As I pointed out, he may well have repented as He died especially as he was in the presence of Our Saviour. People are quick to condemn others but God is far more merciful than they suppose…

 

[808Catholic]

The whole world might disagree with me but it doesn’t follow that Judas is in Hell. The fact that he killed himself is overwhelming evidence that he bitterly regretted what he had done. It seems very harsh to condemn a man who was tortured by remorse and obsessed by his guilt at having betrayed “innocent blood”. I’m sure God is infinitely more merciful than many of His creatures:

“Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone.”

If we are to commit the sin of condemning people without knowing their state of mind when they die Herod and Caiaphas **seem **more likely candidates…

True. We don’t **know **who is in hell or heaven. We know his (Judas) actions reflect his rejection of Christ and that’s a mortal sin. What happened between his suicide (another mortal sin) and his personal judgement is between his soul and God.

We continue to pray for all souls in Purgatory. Amen.