Does free will truly exist?

[Robert_Sock]

Take a child who was brought up in a violent environment and who knows nothing about love. Can such a person truly have free will in choosing between evil and love? The same goes for a child who is brought up in a loving family. Can such a child really choose hate when the rewards for love are so great?

Operant conditioning comes into play here. It is well documented that a person will choose whatever they perceive to have the greatest reward, and their environment will dictate which behaviors they perceive to have the greatest reward.

I’m more deterministic, and really feel that the choices we face are predetermined by learning in the environment. Even those behaviors connected with spirituality, are predetermined. Again, it comes down to operant conditioning in which we expect certain choices to have a spiritual reward through the grace of God, hence, we become spiritual.

 

[JDaniel]

Take a child who was brought up in a violent environment and who knows nothing about love. Can such a person truly have free will in choosing between evil and love? The same goes for a child who is brought up in a loving family. Can such a child really choose hate when the rewards for love are so great?

Operant conditioning comes into play here. It is well documented that a person will choose whatever they perceive to have the greatest reward, and their environment will dictate which behaviors they perceive to have the greatest reward.

I’m more deterministic, and really feel that the choices we face are predetermined by learning in the environment. Even those behaviors connected with spirituality, are predetermined. Again, it comes down to operant conditioning in which we expect certain choices to have a spiritual reward, hence, we become spiritual.

Robert:

It would seem that we have limited free will. Analogously, a herd of cattle behind hundred foot walls, is free to roam where the herd members will. But, not seeing beyond those walls limits their abilities, and, thus, possibly their desires, to ever taste the vegetation on the outside. Within a large enough interior expanse, they will probably not miss a thing.

God bless,
jd

 

[svid2]

Yes!
Yes!
Yes!
Free will exists. It is a gift. And a responsibility. From the one to whom much is given, much is expected. The Lord knows your circumstances better than you do.

 

[jonathanjlinn]

I tango with this question daily. And to the best of my reasoning I must hold we do have free will. Although it may seem that at times that will is limited by exterior or interior factors, we still have it to some degree. Conditioning may point us in a certain direction but we are also working within a framework of abundant grace - something we can’t test in psychology experiments. I don’t know how much freedom we have, and I believe that amount can change in certain times or situations, but it will always remain out of necessity in the sense that God could not create a world where zero freedom existed.

Also, I think conditioning is what makes it so difficult for us to choose one way (the better one) over another. But, we shouldn’t extend this out to say that those who have been conditioned to only know evil and not love could never one day be in heaven. Certainly God has taken all of this into account.

To the most basic core, we always have the freedom to accept or reject God. But, what rejection is for one person may not be for another.

 

[Robert_Sock]

While I believe that free will is limited, I find that there are certain critical moments in which the conscience allows a choice between righteousness and a form of wickedness. It’s an inner spiritual experience. Of course. righteousness is rewarded with grace from God and allows us to grow more spiritually.

There is nothing more marvelous than for an evil person to choose righteousness for the first time! Such a person has the potential for great spiritual growth!

 

[LSK]

Perhaps we are confusing free will with freedom itself.

If we use our first parents as an example, they were created and lived in perfect justice and perfect love, in communion with The Creator.

Their freedom, while vast, had parameters (eat anything here but that tree’s fruit right there).

Now, here is the interesting thing: despite our first parents being in perfect communion with Our Father they CHOSE to commit a sin.

In fact, the very significance of making that choice is why the sin is considered so horrendous - horrendous enough to pollute the river of human existence at its very source and effect us today.

So, it would appear that they had Free Will - the ability to choose to do evil or do good - and their poor exercise of that gift got us where we are today.

So…do we have free will? YES. It is compromised? Certainly - we all suffer from concupiscence. Can we overcome our environment and our nature? Absolutely - but only through the Grace of God.

And it seems to me that if it was simply a matter of environment that shaped a person’s ability to properly exercise the gift of Free Will (to chose to do GOOD and not evil), we would never have any child ‘go bad’ in a good family or any saint arise out of extreme horror or abuse.

Us humans - we is a puzzlement!

 

[Sair]

My impression is that free will, in the sense of completely random choice, does not exist. However, life as we live it presents us with possibilities that we may choose between. What those possibilities are may depend upon the circumstances into which we are born, but which of the available possibilities we go with still depends upon the particular configuration of our individual minds; so for all meaningful conceptions of free will, yes, we have it - but if you consider the ‘me’ to be independent of the body and its circumstances, maybe this won’t satisfy.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Take a child who was brought up in a violent environment and who knows nothing about love. Can such a person truly have free will in choosing between evil and love? The same goes for a child who is brought up in a loving family. Can such a child really choose hate when the rewards for love are so great?

Operant conditioning comes into play here. It is well documented that a person will choose whatever they perceive to have the greatest reward, and their environment will dictate which behaviors they perceive to have the greatest reward.

I’m more deterministic, and really feel that the choices we face are predetermined by learning in the environment. Even those behaviors connected with spirituality, are predetermined. Again, it comes down to operant conditioning in which we expect certain choices to have a spiritual reward through the grace of God, hence, we become spiritual.

Why do you expect people to freely give a rationally conscious answer?

Threads like these really annoy me, because they fail to see the contradiction in asking the question in the first place… Its not a difficult one to see.

Its like asking if there really is such a thing as reality, and then hoping somebody exists in-order to give you an answer. And that’s assuming that you existed to freely ask the question in the first place!!!

 

[MindOverMatter2]

My impression is that free will, in the sense of completely random choice,

I am not aware that anybody ever means “completely random” by the term freewill; so I am not sure what it is that you think you are refuting.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m more deterministic, and really feel that the choices we face are predetermined by learning in the environment.

If the choices we face are predetermined by learning in the environment all our choices are predetermined - and we have no choice in the matter! In other words we are neither responsible nor rational. The truth makes us free but we have to be free to arrive at the truth…

 

[4Horsemen]

Those presumably incapable of arriving at the truth, due to invincible ignorance are not truly free and are, therefore, not culpable.

So is it the case that only those who are capable of understanding what is true have free will?

 

[tonyrey]

Those presumably incapable of arriving at the truth, due to invincible ignorance are not truly free and are, therefore, not culpable.

So is it the case that only those who are capable of understanding what is true have free will?

Yes. They may have the latent power but they cannot exercise it - like some one in total darkness trying to work out where to go. Truth and freedom are interdependent - together with goodness, justice, beauty and love. They all converge in God…

 

[exnihilo]

Take a child who was brought up in a violent environment and who knows nothing about love. Can such a person truly have free will in choosing between evil and love? The same goes for a child who is brought up in a loving family. Can such a child really choose hate when the rewards for love are so great?

If we are limited to our environment then where did the distinction between love and hate even come from? How did some human families develop hateful homes and others loving?

Our experience certainly shapes us but since we observe differences among families that would seem to disprove we are just products of our environment. Also it would seem that society as a whole can change over time. If society can change that would suggest changes in individuals.

The idea that people do things just for reward ignores the idea of principled men. It suggests that everyone makes their choices only based on their personal reward. But there are plenty of people who do the right thing even when no one else would be aware and no reward would come of it.

You could then argue that they receive the reward of personal satisfaction and that this is no different from an external reward. But there is a problem with this. You have then created a condition where the only way someone would truly do the right thing is if they received no reward not even personal satisfaction. Thus you would have to find a man who does the right thing while hating what he does in order to prove that people can do something merely for the sake of rightness.

 

[wanstronian]

There is no empirical evidence to support the existence of free will.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

There is no empirical evidence to support the existence of free will.

There does not need to be, because its self evident, just like the fact that you exist. You are simply not honest enough to admit it to yourself.

 

[wanstronian]

There does not need to be, because its self evident, just like the fact that you exist. You are simply not honest enough to admit it to yourself.

Well, the fact that I exist is empirically testable. So your argument falls apart right there. To claim something as “self-evident” just because it seems right to you, does not make for a convincing argument I’m afraid.

There is no evidence that free will exists.

 

[onenow1]

Free will the ability to make a decision, circumstances can interupt decisions, but in reality only change any decision we make in the freedom of our thoughts were real freedom lies. Jesus seems to say so in the passion,when he says not my will but yours.

God Bless
:compcoff:

 

[Robert_Sock]

Free will the ability to make a decision, circumstances can interupt decisions, but in reality only change any decision we make in the freedom of our thoughts were real freedom lies. Jesus seems to say so in the passion,when he says not my will but yours.

God Bless
:compcoff:

Do you have a reference for your definition, or is it something you came up with on your own? It perfectly OK to have your own personal definition, but that should be made clear to the reader.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Well, the fact that I exist is empirically testable. So your argument falls apart right there.

Empirical testability is irrelevant to whether or not you know of your own existence. I know that I exist, I don’t need a scientific test, because its within my immediate knowledge. Its pre-scientific knowledge; just like the fact that we have general knowledge of physical existence before we apply science to it, although self knowledge is more certain. To attempt to ignore this fact, by creating the further illusion that science must have a say first before I can know or express the certain fact that I exist, is a ridiculous joke, and you should know better.

 

[onenow1]

Do you have a reference for your definition, or is it something you came up with on your own? It perfectly OK to have your own personal definition, but that should be made clear to the reader.

Hi, Robert,
A dictionary definition of decision, with my thoughts on same.

Peace