Does God act by an objective morals or Utilitarianism?

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I’ve recently been told that Catholic dogma states that God can not lie. If this is true, I see a few potential problems, mostly because this view seems to contradict the idea of an omnibenevolent God. Omnibenevolent means all-loving, and love means wanting the good of another. If God were fully omnibenevolent, he does whatever he can to maximise our happiness. In other words, he would act with utilitarian motivations.

If God were incapable of lying, (or any other action we would normally classify as bad) then there would be some situations in which God would need to sacrifice some amount of human or angelic happiness in order to abide by certain principles.

In short, I don’t see how God can be both omnibenevolent and adhere to an objective, categorical morality.

thoughts?
 
Our happiness can only be full, complete, and everlasting in Heaven. Our happiness in Heaven is increased by manfully enduring hardships and trials in this life with virtue; and the suffering we experience in this life is nothing compared with the happiness we will experience forever, if we persevere in God’s friendship (cf. Rom. 8:18).

In this perspective, any happiness which is spoiled by hearing an unpleasant truth is a transient, and relatively insignificant happiness.
 
I’ve recently been told that Catholic dogma states that God can not lie. If this is true, I see a few potential problems, mostly because this view seems to contradict the idea of an omnibenevolent God. Omnibenevolent means all-loving, and love means wanting the good of another. If God were fully omnibenevolent, he does whatever he can to maximise our happiness. In other words, he would act with utilitarian motivations.

If God were incapable of lying, (or any other action we would normally classify as bad) then there would be some situations in which God would need to sacrifice some amount of human or angelic happiness in order to abide by certain principles.

In short, I don’t see how God can be both omnibenevolent and adhere to an objective, categorical morality.

thoughts?
Maybe He wants our objective (real) happiness, and not a utilitarian one (which would be a lie, of course).
Whenever did a lie make someone happy?
If you were in Matrix, which pill would you choose?
 
Also, willing the good of the other doesn’t mean to want “happiness” for that person but salvation and the profound joy that lies underneath all happiness, pain, sorrow, and other emotions, the Joy that only comes from God, Christ on the Cross. Too many people today misunderstand the difference between happiness and joy. You can have joy and be joy filled while feeling the saddest ever in your life. Our lives are not about making other people “happy” but in loving them, willing the good for them, wanting them to experience salvation and God’s joy. That is how God calls us to love, to wish for them God’s Joy in their Hearts and their Eternal Salvation.

God Bless
 
Our happiness can only be full, complete, and everlasting in Heaven. Our happiness in Heaven is increased by manfully enduring hardships and trials in this life with virtue; and the suffering we experience in this life is nothing compared with the happiness we will experience forever, if we persevere in God’s friendship (cf. Rom. 8:18).

In this perspective, any happiness which is spoiled by hearing an unpleasant truth is a transient, and relatively insignificant happiness.
The magnitude of the happiness doesn’t really matter. If any sort of unhappiness is produced because of God’s categorical moral standard that would otherwise have been avoided, then God’s categorical standard conflicts with his omnibenevolence, which seeks to maximise happiness.
 
Maybe He wants our objective (real) happiness, and not a utilitarian one (which would be a lie, of course).
If there is a difference in the way God treats “real” and “utilitarian” happiness, there has to be a difference in their subjective experience as well. An omnibenevolent God is concerned with how happy we are. If he has to lie to us to make us happy, then an omnibenevolent God would do that.
Whenever did a lie make someone happy?
People engage in white lies all the time to keep others happy. If the lie is believed and stays hidden, sometimes it actually works.
If you were in Matrix, which pill would you choose?
That’s a topic that needs a thread all to its own. But to answer the question in terms of the topic at hand, I’d take the red pill because I’d be happier knowing that I’m in the real world. If I took the blue pill, I’d know I was in a lie, and so I could no longer be happy in it. But if I were not given the choice, I might be happier in the simulation than reality.
 
Also, willing the good of the other doesn’t mean to want “happiness” for that person but salvation and the profound joy that lies underneath all happiness, pain, sorrow, and other emotions, the Joy that only comes from God, Christ on the Cross. Too many people today misunderstand the difference between happiness and joy. You can have joy and be joy filled while feeling the saddest ever in your life. Our lives are not about making other people “happy” but in loving them, willing the good for them, wanting them to experience salvation and God’s joy. That is how God calls us to love, to wish for them God’s Joy in their Hearts and their Eternal Salvation.

God Bless
obviously, the joy you speak of is the most important priority. But do you really mean to say that love does not entail wanting someone to have earthly happiness too?
 
obviously, the joy you speak of is the most important priority. But do you really mean to say that love does not entail wanting someone to have earthly happiness too?
It is not its main purpose but love can certainly make someone “happy” but like I said, that is not the goal of love.
 
It is not its main purpose but love can certainly make someone “happy” but like I said, that is not the goal of love.
It seems to me like love should include wanting both joy and earthly happiness for others, though joy would be the much greater priority.
 
The magnitude of the happiness doesn’t really matter. If any sort of unhappiness is produced because of God’s categorical moral standard that would otherwise have been avoided, then God’s categorical standard conflicts with his omnibenevolence, which seeks to maximise happiness.
Our nature is a fallen one. If we don’t begin from that premise , trying to argue the above might soon converge on a point where we would begin to trip up because we are then subjectively placing a greater value on our existence than we place on the existence of our Creator .

God does not simply tell the truth , God** is **Truth , and He cannot deny Himself.
Fr. John Hardon , S.J. :
“Since truth is conformity of mind with reality, God is Truth three times over. . .”
Timothy 2:13 [NAB]
If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
I believe our Catholic philosophy holds that we cannot distinguish God’s Divine Attributes from His Divine Essence .
 
That would be a point where we might begin to trip up because we are then subjectively placing a greater value on our existence than we place on the existence of our Creator .
I’m just pointing out the attributes of an omnibenevolent God, who wants to maximise our good. This does not mean that we are placing greater value on human existence.
God does not simply tell the truth , God** is **Truth , and He cannot deny Himself.
I believe our Catholic philosophy holds that we cannot distinguish God’s Divine Attributes from His Divine Essence .
I know that this is a common thought in the Catholic church, and I’m familiar with how it works. The problem is that I don’t see how God could be both incapable of telling the truth and omnibenevolent. I don’t see how the teaching fits.
 
I could offer this as a quick and easy answer:
  1. The natural end of the intellect is to know the truth.
  2. Thus, the intellect achieves its natural end and realizes its potencies by knowing the truth, thereby conforming to what the intellect essentially is (a faculty for knowing the truth).
  3. As a good triangle accurately reflects the nature of a triangle, a good axe functions as an axe essentially is meant to function, etc. so a good intellect operates according to how an intellect is meant to function, which is to know the truth.
  4. Therefore, it is a good for the intellect to know the truth.
  5. Consequently, it is an evil for the intellect to be overcome by falsehood.
  6. Therefore, to communicate (directly) falsehood is an evil against the intellect, and thus incompatible with willing the good for us, which is benevolence.
 
I could offer this as a quick and easy answer:
  1. The natural end of the intellect is to know the truth.
  2. Thus, the intellect achieves its natural end and realizes its potencies by knowing the truth, thereby conforming to what the intellect essentially is (a faculty for knowing the truth).
  3. As a good triangle accurately reflects the nature of a triangle, a good axe functions as an axe essentially is meant to function, etc. so a good intellect operates according to how an intellect is meant to function, which is to know the truth.
  4. Therefore, it is a good for the intellect to know the truth.
  5. Consequently, it is an evil for the intellect to be overcome by falsehood.
  6. Therefore, to communicate (directly) falsehood is an evil against the intellect, and thus incompatible with willing the good for us, which is benevolence.
Duly copied, pasted and ,saved: Thank-you for something solid that I can wrap my mind around AuditVocemMeam. This stuff takes a while to sink in for me.
I’m just pointing out the attributes of an omnibenevolent God, who wants to maximise our good. This does not mean that we are placing greater value on human existence.

I know that this is a common thought in the Catholic church, and I’m familiar with how it works. The problem is that I don’t see how God could be both incapable of telling the truth and omnibenevolent. I don’t see how the teaching fits.
Hi zro x .

Could you please confirm that this (quote directly above) was a typo , so I don’t become more confused (:)) ?

…Did you mean to say, “The problem is that I don’t see how God could be both incapable of lying and omnibenevolent,” - because I think that’s what you appeared to start out with as the OP.
 
If God were incapable of lying, (or any other action we would normally classify as bad) then there would be some situations in which God would need to sacrifice some amount of human or angelic happiness in order to abide by certain principles.
I don’t think this is necessarily true. It is certainly possible that no situation will arise where God lying would maximize happiness. On the other hand, in Christian theism truth is always seen as an objective good. This notion is so prevalent (at least in western thought) that it’s almost taken for granted, even among Utilitarianists; everything from the empirical sciences, the judicial system, social and political contract theory, journalism, etc. Why? Because without truth there is no knowledge, which as its constituent requires truth.
 
I could offer this as a quick and easy answer:
  1. The natural end of the intellect is to know the truth.
  2. Thus, the intellect achieves its natural end and realizes its potencies by knowing the truth, thereby conforming to what the intellect essentially is (a faculty for knowing the truth).
  3. As a good triangle accurately reflects the nature of a triangle, a good axe functions as an axe essentially is meant to function, etc. so a good intellect operates according to how an intellect is meant to function, which is to know the truth.
  4. Therefore, it is a good for the intellect to know the truth.
  5. Consequently, it is an evil for the intellect to be overcome by falsehood.
  6. Therefore, to communicate (directly) falsehood is an evil against the intellect, and thus incompatible with willing the good for us, which is benevolence.
lf something fulfills its purpose, then we call that thing good, yes, but only because it is useful for producing desirable experiences. A triangle is a good triangle if it embodies “triangleness” well, but only because it is useful to be able to recognise and make good triangles. It can promote our understanding. It is much easier to see this in the case of a good ax, but it works for the triangle too.

So the ax and the triangle are good because by fullfilling their functions they can facilitate our happiness. This does not necessarily mean that these functions should be fulfilled in every possible scenario. We would not call it an evil against an ax to refrain from using it to murder someone. likewise, we would not call it an evil against our intellect to refrain from giving it te truth if the truth lead to some decline in happiness.
 
Duly copied, pasted and ,saved: Thank-you for something solid that I can wrap my mind around AuditVocemMeam. This stuff takes a while to sink in for me.

Hi zro x .

Could you please confirm that this (quote directly above) was a typo , so I don’t become more confused (:)) ?

…Did you mean to say, “The problem is that I don’t see how God could be both incapable of lying and omnibenevolent,” - because I think that’s what you appeared to start out with as the OP.
sorry, yes. I just realized I also messed up the thread title.:doh2:
 
I don’t think this is necessarily true. It is certainly possible that no situation will arise where God lying would maximize happiness.
Maybe, but it seems extremely unlikely. There are many possible worlds, and only one of them is the one in which happiness is maximized. It just so happens that this world is also the one in which God needs to tell no lies at all to promote and maintain this happiness? I find the idea dubious at best.
On the other hand, in Christian theism truth is always seen as an objective good. This notion is so prevalent (at least in western thought) that it’s almost taken for granted, even among Utilitarianists; everything from the empirical sciences, the judicial system, social and political contract theory, journalism, etc. Why? Because without truth there is no knowledge, which as its constituent requires truth.
I’m not so sure if truth is as widely acknowledged as an objective good as you claim it is. Truth, as you say, is valued for knowledge, and also for trust, both of which promote human happiness. However, If we were being watched over by an omniscient being, there would be no reason to need to know the truth if the omniscient, omnibenevolent being thought that it would be more in your interests to believe a lie.
 
lf something fulfills its purpose, then we call that thing good, yes, but only because it is useful for producing desirable experiences. A triangle is a good triangle if it embodies “triangleness” well, but only because it is useful to be able to recognise and make good triangles. It can promote our understanding. It is much easier to see this in the case of a good ax, but it works for the triangle too.

So the ax and the triangle are good because by fullfilling their functions they can facilitate our happiness. This does not necessarily mean that these functions should be fulfilled in every possible scenario. We would not call it an evil against an ax to refrain from using it to murder someone. likewise, we would not call it an evil against our intellect to refrain from giving it te truth if the truth lead to some decline in happiness.
We call the thing good because it participates more in being. It is similar to calling a drawing of me a good drawing of me if it looks like me. This is done without reference to some function for which the drawing might serve as a means (as in, it’s good since it looks like me, which is good since it allows you to sell it to me and make money). In other words, analyzing the particular thing only without reference to anything else, a thing is a good thing insofar as it conforms to what that thing is meant to be, which is determined by its essence; it is good if it participates more in the being of the form which it instantiates by conforming more to the reality of the form. This gets at the notion that, in Thomistic philosophy, goodness and being are the same thing considered in different ways.

You are correct that not all functions should be fulfilled all the time. But this refers to a distinction between the good for one particular thing considered as itself only, and the good which takes into account the whole of things involved. Certain goods are above others. Hence it is an ontological good for the human reproductive faculty, considered as itself alone, to exercise itself and fulfill its natural end, but it is an evil for a human being to reproduce outside of the setting which is most conducive to the flourishing of the offspring, which is a lifelong commitment of marriage, since the good for the whole human being and the whole human species takes precedence over the good for one faculty in particular.

So the only reason that using an axe to murder someone is evil is because it contradicts the natural good of the other person, determined by his human nature, which is to grow, flourish, and know God and have beatitude in Him. Otherwise the axe exercising its function is good.

But there is no circumstance in which inculcating a definite falsehood into a human intellect can be conducive to the realization of the good for humans, since the human good involves realizing the individual goods of each human faculty in their proper place and measure. Thus it is good for us to eat, but not too much; it is good for us to reproduce, but not if we are not married. Taking falsehood into the intellect is not even simply not exercising the intellect; it is exercising the intellect, but in such a way that the intellect contradicts its own nature. It is good for us to exercise our intellect to know the truth; it can be acceptable for us not to know the truth on some occasions; it is never good, however, to accept falsehood with the intellect, since that is a violation of the good of the intellect, which is a part of the human good. So in doing evil to the intellect, one also does evil to the whole human being, of whom the intellect is a part.
 
God’s … omnibenevolence, which seeks to maximise happiness.
Merely stating this does not make it true. Nor have you demonstrated that it is possible to have maximum “happiness” (as defined by each human?) on earth, and still gain heaven.
 
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