Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

You havent proven that Tony did anything against the word of God.

And I won’t because you do not accept it. I showed you that anyone who disobeys the word of God sins. You have failed to show me how getting a procedure to end you ability to be fertile and multiply is in line with the word of God.

Where in the word of God did it state that 8 was the cut off or 9 or 2 or 3. According to the Natural law as I have showed you man cannot break between the unitive significance and the procreation significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

Just Look up Humanae Vitae and you can hear it straight from the Pope the leader of the CC. Maybe you can understand it better from him then I.

BUt personally if you cannot see how getting a operation to not have anymore children stops the procreation that should be up to the Lord and not us, I don’t see where it will really help. But you should try at least to read the teachings of the Catholic CHurch.

 

[rinnie]

Me too.

… and you describe my thoughts exactly … it is between Tony, his wife and God.

The only difference that I see between the Catholic way and the way that other good Christians handle a situation like that is that they go straight to the conclusion that you came to above without all the Catholic hoops in between.

If you call truly be sorry for a sin you commited and having the Grace by the blood of Christ on the Cross to forgive us for our sin Catholic hoops then so be it.

 

[rinnie]

Me too.

… and you describe my thoughts exactly … it is between Tony, his wife and God.

The only difference that I see between the Catholic way and the way that other good Christians handle a situation like that is that they go straight to the conclusion that you came to above without all the Catholic hoops in between.

Just curious what do you think was the reasoning of God putting the Apostles on earth, and their successors to have the gift of the Holy SPirit to forgive sin in God’s name if he didn’t want us to go to the Priest.

Kinda wonder how rejecting that command makes other good Christians and the Catholic way different?

I always thought the Catholic way and the good Christian way was the same way. I thought God said there was only one way. According to the Gosple we are to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church. You do know that is the Apostles and their successors.

Which history proves is the Pope and Bishops in union with him.

Where in the gospel did it tell the good Christian and the Catholic Christian to separate from one another. Now its your turn to show me so good Christian gospel. And show me where Catholic scripture and good Christian scripture is different. Especially when it came from the Catholic Church.

 

[1voice]

Just curious what do you think was the reasoning of God putting the Apostles on earth, and their successors to have the gift of the Holy SPirit to forgive sin in God’s name if he didn’t want us to go to the Priest.

Kinda wonder how rejecting that command makes other good Christians and the Catholic way different?

I always thought the Catholic way and the good Christian way was the same way. I thought God said there was only one way. According to the Gosple we are to stick with the Early Fathers of the Church. You do know that is the Apostles and their successors.

Which history proves is the Pope and Bishops in union with him.

Where in the gospel did it tell the good Christian and the Catholic Christian to separate from one another. Now its your turn to show me so good Christian gospel. And show me where Catholic scripture and good Christian scripture is different. Especially when it came from the Catholic Church.

I cant speak for anyone else but the bottom line is that the teachings like this dont line up with the truth of the Bible at all…
“Whosoever dies wearing a scapular shall not suffer eternal fire. Mary’s promise.”

Scroll down and click on “About the Brown Scapular”

askacatholic.com/_webpostings/answers/2011_01JAN/2011JanOn_TheBrown_Scapular.cfm

 

[rinnie]

I cant speak for anyone else but the bottom line is that the teachings like this dont line up with the truth of the Bible at all…
“Whosoever dies wearing a scapular shall not suffer eternal fire. Mary’s promise.”

Scroll down and click on “About the Brown Scapular”

askacatholic.com/_webpostings/answers/2011_01JAN/2011JanOn_TheBrown_Scapular.cfm

Well yes we could move on to that. BUt we have to open another thread about it. But you still have no answered my first question yet. So could you go back to previous post and answer it. Thanks.

 

[1voice]

Well yes we could move on to that. BUt we have to open another thread about it. But you still have no answered my first question yet. So could you go back to previous post and answer it. Thanks.

I answered it by giving that example of the Popes and clergy that endorsed salvation through the scapular. Jesus said many will come in my name … but by their fruits you will know them (he said nothing about the value of pedigree … in fact when John the Baptist preached he specifically said pedigree was worthless … “God can create descendants of Abraham fron these stones”). The foundation of Christianity is salvation (from hell) and life through Christ alone… plus nothing. Jesus and the Apostles said … If anyone teaches any other gospel … dont accept it.

If the top leaders of the Catholic church cant get it right on how to be saved from hell … the most basic, foundational teaching that Jesus and the Apostles preached … and the one reason that God sent his Son into the world (that it might be saved) … how are they to be trusted at all … on any other matter of less importance.

… no matter who they claim to be descended from.

 

[1voice]

Well yes we could move on to that. BUt we have to open another thread about it. But you still have no answered my first question yet. So could you go back to previous post and answer it. Thanks.

I was raised by good Catholic parents whom I dearly love. Though none of us my family are Catholics now. For me Catholicism was just a list of rules and guilt. That was the only focus. There was never any assurance that any of what was required would guarantee salvation ( except wearing a scapular of course ) … in fact, having assurance of salvation was considered a sin … of presumption.

The focus was always the suffering … never the resurrection.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I answered it by giving that example of the Popes and clergy that endorsed salvation through the scapular. Jesus said many will come in my name … but by their fruits you will know them (he said nothing about the value of pedigree … in fact when John the Baptist preached he specifically said pedigree was worthless … “God can create descendants of Abraham fron these stones”). The foundation of Christianity is salvation (from hell) and life through Christ alone… plus nothing. Jesus and the Apostles said … If anyone teaches any other gospel … dont accept it.

If the top leaders of the Catholic church cant get it right on how to be saved from hell … the most basic, foundational teaching that Jesus and the Apostles preached … and the one reason that God sent his Son into the world (that it might be saved) … how are they to be trusted at all … on any other matter of less importance.

… no matter who they claim to be descended from.

You have NOT demonstrated that the leaders of the Catholic ‘got it wrong’ on how to be saved. Really, you haven’t. You can yammer about private revelation and cherry pick quotes all you want, still doesn’t make you correct though. No Catholic is bound to private relevation (and I’m pretty sure you know that but have conveniently not mentioned it) and the Popes words on the scapular reflect that the teachings are not contradictory to Scripture and tradition (which I’m also pretty sure you knew as well).

Read the catechism and see exactly what the Church teaches about hell. Cut-and-paste all of it or ‘link’ (to the ENTIRE teaching if you please) and show me that the leaders “got it wrong” and then show me the ‘correct’ teaching and why you know it is correct and by what authority you can claim it’s correct (and hint, “the Holy Spirit told me so” or “the bible says so” is not authority; the latter because no book or inanimate object can possess teaching authority and the former because you can’t guarantee that the ‘spirit’ you claim is truly the Holy Spirit and not a demon spirit).

 

[1voice]

You have NOT demonstrated that the leaders of the Catholic ‘got it wrong’ on how to be saved. Really, you haven’t. You can yammer …

LOL! Take it easy!
Im just saying that for me Catholicism is confusing. Sounds like you sorted it out. I dont want to have to do that. I keep things simple.
I used the scapular as an example of the confusion. When I was a kid … I was told that wearing it insured escape from hell… I was terrified of taking it off or losing it. I went to Catholic school for 8 years then 4 years of CCD. I was an altar boy and knew the responses in Latin… I earned and wore the Ad Altare Dei medal… My Dad was chairman of the Catholic Parent Teachers Assn and Head of the Bingo Comittee … Nothing else in all that Catholic teaching gave that kind of assurance.
The belief, I was instructed, was endorsed by multiple Popes and revered Saints and Church leaders. Thats confusing.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

LOL! Take it easy!
Im just saying that for me Catholicism is confusing. Sounds like you sorted it out. I dont want to have to do that. I keep things simple.

Oh, you ‘don’t want to have to sort things out’ and you’d rather keep things simple.

I’m just curious though. When a person faces any situation in life which is complex (i.e., not ‘simple’), should they try to work through to find out the whole truth even when it takes time and effort? Isn’t that better than either running away from the whole thing, or only tackling the situation partially in a ‘simple’ way? I am not directing this as a personal attack, I’m just asking. It would seem to me that a person who does NOT work with a complex situation by striving to the best of his/her ability to understand (even when it is ‘hard’ or 'complex) would be doing himself/herself (and others) a great disservice. At best, even if they managed to cobble something that ‘worked for them most of the time’, they’d miss out on something that would have worked, for everybody, ALL the time. At worst, they could cause themselves and others harm.

Imagine if a person was building a big sports stadium (with complex blueprints) but wanted to ‘keep it simple’ and just fudged over or ignored what he thought was ‘too hard’. . .he might manage to get the thing built but on the inauguration it collapsed and killed hundreds of people who had gone there. . .

This is NOT directed at you personally 1voice. . .

 

[fred_conty]

I was raised by good Catholic parents whom I dearly love. Though none of us my family are Catholics now. For me Catholicism was just a list of rules and guilt. That was the only focus. There was never any assurance that any of what was required would guarantee salvation ( except wearing a scapular of course ) … in fact, having assurance of salvation was considered a sin … of presumption.

The focus was always the suffering … never the resurrection.

Hi 1voice,
I’ve been a long time Catholic and I have to thank you for explaining to me why a close relative of mine has gone to other churches after being a Communion minister. He told me 10 years ago he counldn’t handle the fear. I just couldn’t bring myself to ask him what he meant because we were close. From what you say, I now think I know.

May I add that the subject of this thread in itself is very fearful and is something no loving Christian can avoid. In fact I’m grateful to our dear Lord that he told me about it because now my chances of going there are slimmer since I will do the things He taught me and have plenty of motive to keep them.

The reason I’m Catholic is that is what He wants me to be and because I’m part with Him in His Body on earth. If I’m a part of Him than at the end he will take that body and resurrect it. So I don’t have to depend on how I feel at the moment to know whether I’m save or not, I just have to be a part of Him on earth. It’s a great feeling on blue mondays when I don’t particularily feel I’m saved. I think feeling saved is great, I’ve been there, but I feel much better that I am a part of Him on earth which I can depend on.

As far as fear I have now, It’s mainly fear of not being as close to Him as I can, of not loving Him more. Fear of not living up to His expectations which He deserves. It is a new sort of fear. I know that the cross will only be a short while, the Resurrection will be for all eternity. I want to pick up the cross after Him and to offer that to Him just as He offered His cross for us.​

“…love everyone, especially the brethern…” Saul the murderer, Paul the convert.

 

[1voice]

Oh, you ‘don’t want to have to sort things out’ and you’d rather keep things simple.

I’m just curious though. When a person faces any situation in life which is complex (i.e., not ‘simple’), should they try to work through to find out the whole truth even when it takes time and effort? Isn’t that better than either running away from the whole thing, or only tackling the situation partially in a ‘simple’ way? I am not directing this as a personal attack, I’m just asking. It would seem to me that a person who does NOT work with a complex situation by striving to the best of his/her ability to understand (even when it is ‘hard’ or 'complex) would be doing himself/herself (and others) a great disservice. At best, even if they managed to cobble something that ‘worked for them most of the time’, they’d miss out on something that would have worked, for everybody, ALL the time. At worst, they could cause themselves and others harm.

Imagine if a person was building a big sports stadium (with complex blueprints) but wanted to ‘keep it simple’ and just fudged over or ignored what he thought was ‘too hard’. . .he might manage to get the thing built but on the inauguration it collapsed and killed hundreds of people who had gone there. . .

This is NOT directed at you personally 1voice. . .

By keeping things simple I mean … Does it line up with the Bible ( the builder’s manual and architectural blueprint )… The Scapular is not ever mentioned by anyone in scripture as a way to escape hell.

 

[1voice]

Hi 1voice,
I’ve been a long time Catholic and I have to thank you for explaining to me why a close relative of mine has gone to other churches after being a Communion minister. He told me 10 years ago he counldn’t handle the fear. I just couldn’t bring myself to ask him what he meant because we were close. From what you say, I now think I know.

May I add that the subject of this thread in itself is very fearful and is something no loving Christian can avoid. In fact I’m grateful to our dear Lord that he told me about it because now my chances of going there are slimmer since I will do the things He taught me and have plenty of motive to keep them.

The reason I’m Catholic is that is what He wants me to be and because I’m part with Him in His Body on earth. If I’m a part of Him than at the end he will take that body and resurrect it. So I don’t have to depend on how I feel at the moment to know whether I’m save or not, I just have to be a part of Him on earth. It’s a great feeling on blue mondays when I don’t particularily feel I’m saved. I think feeling saved is great, I’ve been there, but I feel much better that I am a part of Him on earth which I can depend on.

As far as fear I have now, It’s mainly fear of not being as close to Him as I can, of not loving Him more. Fear of not living up to His expectations which He deserves. It is a new sort of fear. I know that the cross will only be a short while, the Resurrection will be for all eternity. I want to pick up the cross after Him and to offer that to Him just as He offered His cross for us.​

“…love everyone, especially the brethern…” Saul the murderer, Paul the convert.

God bless you… There is a lot of misunderstanding between Catholics and other Christians. Glad to make any contribution I can to the Ecumenical Movement …

 

[rinnie]

By keeping things simple I mean … Does it line up with the Bible ( the builder’s manual and architectural blueprint )… The Scapular is not ever mentioned by anyone in scripture as a way to escape hell.

No but the intercession of the saints is. Read it, its in the book of Rev.

Forgive us for believing the word of God, I know its too Catholic for you. But thats what the word of God is, Very Catholic.

We got intercession from a very good source. Christ himself. He told Peter, Peter I have prayed for you the devil wants you.

Where does intercession and asking a Saint to pray for you and wearing a ourtward sign which is proof that you have a Saint interceeding for you go against the bible?

It amazes me how you have had so much education and don’t even know about the intercession of the Saints. We believe that the Blessed Mother is Holy and her prayers are powerful and heard by God and by the grace given to her by God can be powerful to keep the devil and sin away from us.

Is it the intercession of the prayers of the Blessed Mother you have a problem with, or praying for one another that you have a problem with. Do you not believe in the power or Prayer? Do you believe that when God hears your prayers that they can help you or someone else? If you do why would you think that he would hear your prayers but reject the prayers of his Mother and also of the Saints who have been made Holy in this world?

 

[1voice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
By keeping things simple I mean … Does it line up with the Bible ( the builder’s manual and architectural blueprint )… The Scapular is not ever mentioned by anyone in scripture as a way to escape hell.

No but the intercession of the saints is.

Intercession is an effective tool in a prayer warrior’s toolbox. I’v been doing it for 40 years … with great success.

… This is clearly and simply what the Bible says concerning my salvation though:

“For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

• Romans 10:9-10

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38

I see nothing mentioned about a Scapular… or the rules attached to it … anywhere in the Word of God.

…And as a Catholic I never heard these solid assurances from God’s word taught… But I knew crystal clearly not to lose my scapular.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1voice
By keeping things simple I mean … Does it line up with the Bible ( the builder’s manual and architectural blueprint )… The Scapular is not ever mentioned by anyone in scripture as a way to escape hell.

Intercession is an effective tool in a prayer warrior’s toolbox. I’v been doing it for 40 years … with great success.

… This is clearly and simply what the Bible says concerning my salvation though:

“For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.”

• Romans 10:9-10

Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Acts 2:38

I see nothing mentioned about a Scapular… or the rules attached to it … anywhere in the Word of God.

…And as a Catholic I never heard these solid assurances from God’s word taught… But I knew crystal clearly not to lose my scapular.

Rather than take this thread off topic, would you please open a separate thread? I am sure you will find many Catholics who would be glad to address your misconceptions regarding the scapular and ‘what the popes reportedly said’ etc.

 

[1voice]

Rather than take this thread off topic, would you please open a separate thread? I am sure you will find many Catholics who would be glad to address your misconceptions regarding the scapular and ‘what the popes reportedly said’ etc.

Glad to … Here is the new location:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7774872#post7774872

 

[look3467]

Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

Absolutely not!

What suppose Adam and Eve are seen as exiting the Garden? You think that Adam and Eve were destined to die by the expulsion?

If you answer yes, you are correct.

To become individual entities, the only possible way to achieve that status is for God to create us with the ability to reason between good and evil.

Now we are, as gods, but dammed and without hope of salvation, were we to try it on our own.
Thus, all are concluded as dammed until the time we experience a rebirth.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

So, what is God saying to us? First He states how we are the created, then how as individual gods we are banned from life via our being cast out of the garden and second, how we are to acquire “life” by a second birth.

The bible states:Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water **and **of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

WQhat we see is a two stage birth. First comes the birth in the flesh of which we become who we are.

The second stage is a rebirth, not of the flesh, but of the spirit in Jesus.

Technically, we are all dammed until the rebirth.

Because we, the created, can of ourselves do absolutely no work of any kind to merit winning our own salvation, must by necessity, rely on God to save us.

Of which He did! So, the only dammed ones are those who are not yet knowledgeable to the saving grace of our God. So dammed were are until then.

But we cannot be double dammed. In other words, being already dammed, how can we be dammed again?

The only thing that remains for us is the rebirth process.

God the Father in Jesus took care of the the eternal dammed condition of humanity, while we take care of finding it out. And when we do find it out, and believe it, our spirits are led in a rebirth experience by the Holy Spirit.

Blessing., AJ