Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[firstmode]

I am struggling here to understand what this has to do with Traditions of Man and Traditions of God. I mean don’t get me wrong I can understand Tony’s problem.

But let me flip this for a second if I may. Lets say the Priest told Tony to go ahead and get a vasectomy? What position would that put the Priest in. Would he not tell him to disobey the word of God?

Now if you are saying that the Priest told everyone what Tony told him in confession I am completely on your side. The Priest did wrong and had no right to tell Tony’s business to the Church. He broke his promise to God. Confession is not to be told to anyone.

But what I saw was the Priest telling Tony while I understand your problem, (and think about it, he himself deals with it everyday) he was still telling Tony to trust God and God will find a way to take care of this.

What People need to realize the Priest does not have all of the answers either. I mean there are certain times a women can conceive and cannot. I am sure the Dr could have maybe helped her somehow someway in figuring that out.

But trust me a Man will not die without having sex every time he wants it. While my husband will disagree he is still living.

And I could not imagine the Church in someones business like you are saying what you claim happened. I have been Roman Catholic for 49 years all of my life and never heard of such a thing. And my Church was HUGE with thousands of familys.

I am not saying this is not possible, I am saying this is wrong and should never have happened. And Tony also had no business telling tales out of Confession.

1 cor 7:

9 But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.

5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Not allowed to lust after the wife and have sexual relations within your marriage for pleasure? Not according to sacred scripture…

 

[1voice]

I am struggling here to understand what this has to do with Traditions of Man and Traditions of God. I mean don’t get me wrong I can understand Tony’s problem.

But let me flip this for a second if I may. Lets say the Priest told Tony to go ahead and get a vasectomy? What position would that put the Priest in. Would he not tell him to disobey the word of God?

Now if you are saying that the Priest told everyone what Tony told him in confession I am completely on your side. The Priest did wrong and had no right to tell Tony’s business to the Church. He broke his promise to God. Confession is not to be told to anyone.

But what I saw was the Priest telling Tony while I understand your problem, (and think about it, he himself deals with it everyday) he was still telling Tony to trust God and God will find a way to take care of this.

What People need to realize the Priest does not have all of the answers either. I mean there are certain times a women can conceive and cannot. I am sure the Dr could have maybe helped her somehow someway in figuring that out.

But trust me a Man will not die without having sex every time he wants it. While my husband will disagree he is still living.

And I could not imagine the Church in someones business like you are saying what you claim happened. I have been Roman Catholic for 49 years all of my life and never heard of such a thing. And my Church was HUGE with thousands of familys.

I am not saying this is not possible, I am saying this is wrong and should never have happened. And Tony also had no business telling tales out of Confession.

It happened.
Confession was not involved. He talked to the Priest. he talked to his friends… you are creating assumption and turning it into something that it wasnt… blame shifting and assumption of guilt is typically Catholic. Please dont.
…
… His wife wanted a normal marriage too… If she had gotten a hysterectomy there would have been no problem.

…

 

[1voice]

1 cor 7:

9 But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.

5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Not allowed to lust after the wife and have sexual relations within your marriage for pleasure? Not according to sacred scripture…

Exactly.

 

[1voice]

I am struggling here to understand what this has to do with Traditions of Man and Traditions of God. I mean don’t get me wrong I can understand Tony’s problem.

But let me flip this for a second if I may. Lets say the Priest told Tony to go ahead and get a vasectomy? What position would that put the Priest in. Would he not tell him to disobey the word of God?

Now if you are saying that the Priest told everyone what Tony told him in confession I am completely on your side. The Priest did wrong and had no right to tell Tony’s business to the Church. He broke his promise to God. Confession is not to be told to anyone.

But what I saw was the Priest telling Tony while I understand your problem, (and think about it, he himself deals with it everyday) he was still telling Tony to trust God and God will find a way to take care of this.

What People need to realize the Priest does not have all of the answers either. I mean there are certain times a women can conceive and cannot. I am sure the Dr could have maybe helped her somehow someway in figuring that out.

But trust me a Man will not die without having sex every time he wants it. While my husband will disagree he is still living.

And I could not imagine the Church in someones business like you are saying what you claim happened. I have been Roman Catholic for 49 years all of my life and never heard of such a thing. And my Church was HUGE with thousands of familys.

I am not saying this is not possible, I am saying this is wrong and should never have happened. And Tony also had no business telling tales out of Confession.

Where in God’s word does it say that Tony sinned when he got the vasectomy.

 

[rinnie]

1 cor 7:

9 But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust.

5 Do not deprive each other of sexual relations, unless you both agree to refrain from sexual intimacy for a limited time so you can give yourselves more completely to prayer. Afterward, you should come together again so that Satan won’t be able to tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Not allowed to lust after the wife and have sexual relations within your marriage for pleasure? Not according to sacred scripture…

Where did I say that sex wasn’t created by God for our pleasure?

 

[rinnie]

Where in God’s word does it say that Tony sinned when he got the vasectomy.

You are kidding right? According to the teaching’s of the Church ANY kind of birth control is a delibrate violation of the design of God. Read the first book of the bible.

God told Adam and Eve that sex was for procreation. It is called the natural law.

Now do you feel that a vasectomy is not going against the Natural Law.

 

[rinnie]

It happened.
Confession was not involved. He talked to the Priest. he talked to his friends… you are creating assumption and turning it into something that it wasnt… blame shifting and assumption of guilt is typically Catholic. Please dont.
…
… His wife wanted a normal marriage too… If she had gotten a hysterectomy there would have been no problem.

…

How do you figure that? Is she had gotten a hysterectomy because she did not want to become pregnant what would make her sin any worse then Tony’s?

Where am I shifting guilt? I just said what did you want the Priest to do? Is it not the Priests duty to teach the Catholic faith? Did the Priest give the wrong answer? Did Tony sin?

Look I am not judging Tony. I am just saying that the Priest cannot make up the rules, The word of God is the word of God and he cannot change it. You can blame the Priest if you want but what Tony did was mortal sin according to the teachings of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

There were many other examples of traditions that didnt work. One family in our Parish was having one kid after another … after the 8th child papa Tony said, Father Dompka, I’v got a problem… My wife says no more kids … we tried rhythm … we tried it all … every time I try… I have another mouth to feed. Father Domka (the celibate) says … Well, the only answer is to stop sleeping with your wife. Tony was in his forties and thought … yeh right, thats what im gonna do Father. Im gonna be just like you. How bout since were both gonna be celibate … you take care of the kids…
AaaaaanyWaysssss…
Tony, after a long hard struggle with the decision, got a vasectomy and almost got excommunicated. It was a huge scandal… Tony sent his kids to Catholic school … he was a picture perfect guy… He worked hard … he loved his family dearly … but, all of a sudden he was the object of scorn and accused of giving in to lust by the Church he loved and wanted his kids to love… ??? …?..?

But here is my other question for you. Again you are saying Tradition does not work? Tradition is the Oral teachings of Christ. Now how can you say that the word of God does not work?

I cannot agree with that. Now if you are saying that the word of God is very very difficult at times to live. I wil give you that 100%. I know. I struggle with sin myself every single day.

But on the other side if Tradition does not work you are saying God gives us more then we can handle then right? Well that goes against the word of God also. We are to trust God and turn to him for our struggles. Tony took it upon himself to do what he thought did he not, instead of putting his trust in God?

My Mom said she wanted 2 kids. But God gave her 5. She said that if she knew then what she knows today she would have had 10 kids. SHe said she cried everytime she was pregnant again. BUt the moment she saw that baby she knew God knew more then her. And life was hard but she said God always found a way to make ends MEAT.

My Dad said he would not give you 2 cents for a baby. But once it was born and here he would not sell it for a million dollars:shrug: Go figure.

So I cannot see where God’s law does not work, I am sorry. But I can see where people will not follow Gods law. God knows more then us its as simple as that.

 

[1voice]

But here is my other question for you. Again you are saying Tradition does not work? Tradition is the Oral teachings of Christ. Now how can you say that the word of God does not work?

I cannot agree with that. Now if you are saying that the word of God is very very difficult at times to live. I wil give you that 100%. I know. I struggle with sin myself every single day.

But on the other side if Tradition does not work you are saying God gives us more then we can handle then right? Well that goes against the word of God also. We are to trust God and turn to him for our struggles. Tony took it upon himself to do what he thought did he not, instead of putting his trust in God?

My Mom said she wanted 2 kids. But God gave her 5. She said that if she knew then what she knows today she would have had 10 kids. SHe said she cried everytime she was pregnant again. BUt the moment she saw that baby she knew God knew more then her. And life was hard but she said God always found a way to make ends MEAT.

My Dad said he would not give you 2 cents for a baby. But once it was born and here he would not sell it for a million dollars:shrug: Go figure.

So I cannot see where God’s law does not work, I am sorry. But I can see where people will not follow Gods law. God knows more then us its as simple as that.

Where in the word of God does it say that a vasectomy or a hysterectomy is a sin?

 

[1voice]

How do you figure that? Is she had gotten a hysterectomy because she did not want to become pregnant what would make her sin any worse then Tony’s?

Where am I shifting guilt? I just said what did you want the Priest to do? Is it not the Priests duty to teach the Catholic faith? Did the Priest give the wrong answer? Did Tony sin?

Look I am not judging Tony. I am just saying that the Priest cannot make up the rules, The word of God is the word of God and he cannot change it. You can blame the Priest if you want but what Tony did was mortal sin according to the teachings of Christ.

I realize that the Priest was constrained to do what he did. That is the point.
It is interesting to see how the logic works for you. Its tough but you can handle it. It never dawns that the problem might be that the rule is irrational.

Where in the word of God does it say that it goes against God’s word to get a vasectomy?

 

[rinnie]

I realize that the Priest was constrained to do what he did. That is the point.
It is interesting to see how the logic works for you. Its tough but you can handle it. It never dawns that the problem might be that the rule is irrational.

Where in the word of God does it say that it goes against God’s word to get a vasectomy?

I showed you in Genesis. 1:28 God blessed them saying to them Be fertile and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Now how can you obey the word of God and multiply if you get a vasectomy? How can you obey the word of God and multiply?

 

[rinnie]

I realize that the Priest was constrained to do what he did. That is the point.
It is interesting to see how the logic works for you. Its tough but you can handle it. It never dawns that the problem might be that the rule is irrational.

Where in the word of God does it say that it goes against God’s word to get a vasectomy?

And honestly No it never dawned on me that Gods rule is irrational. I do not have the right to judge or condemn the word of God. Who am I to say what is rational and what is not?

1 Cor 10:13. Tells us that there is no irrational rule of God.

 

[1voice]

I showed you in Genesis. 1:28 God blessed them saying to them Be fertile and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. Now how can you obey the word of God and multiply if you get a vasectomy? How can you obey the word of God and multiply?

They had EIGHT kids! … LOL!!!

I think … They multiplied.

 

[1voice]

1 Cor 10:13. Tells us that there is no irrational rule of God.

I agree wholeheartedly

… what does that have to do with deciding to have a vasectomy after deciding that 8 kids are enough.

 

[rinnie]

They had EIGHT kids! … LOL!!!

I think … They multiplied.

I agree And I am sure they are very happy with all of them. And as time goes on and they get older they will see the blessing’s they have received.

lvoice I don’t want to argue, and trust me I KNOW its hard to obey God’ commands and live up to the teachings of the CHurch. And I also know not many do.

God knew this also, that is why we have the sacraments for the forgiveness of sin. And all Tony has to do is admit his sin, ask for forgiveness and he is forgiven. He will see this in time. If he is the good Catholic you say his is, he will see where he did not trust God enough. BUt GOd is merciful and he knows that sometimes when you feel you back is pushed against the wall you make bad choices. And he forgives us.

As long as Tony did not do this to directly disobey God he is okay. And only Tony and God know the truth. I am not God nor can I answer for him, but I believe in my heart Tony and GOd will work this out and it will be okay.

 

[1voice]

Who am I to say what is rational and what is not?

That is soooooo Catholic!!! …

 

[1voice]

I agree And I am sure they are very happy with all of them. And as time goes on and they get older they will see the blessing’s they have received.

lvoice I don’t want to argue, and trust me I KNOW its hard to obey God’ commands and live up to the teachings of the CHurch. And I also know not many do.

God knew this also, that is why we have the sacraments for the forgiveness of sin. And all Tony has to do is admit his sin, ask for forgiveness and he is forgiven. He will see this in time. If he is the good Catholic you say his is, he will see where he did not trust God enough. BUt GOd is merciful and he knows that sometimes when you feel you back is pushed against the wall you make bad choices. And he forgives us.

As long as Tony did not do this to directly disobey God he is okay. And only Tony and God know the truth. I am not God nor can I answer for him, but I believe in my heart Tony and GOd will work this out and it will be okay.

So … Get the vasectomy … go to confession … go back to the normal intimacy between a couple in love within the bond of marriage and everything is fine according to the Catholic church. I knew there was a way out of this problem!!
Just follow the rules!!!
‘Who am I to say what is rational and what is not’???

 

[rinnie]

So … Get the vasectomy … go to confession … go back to the normal intimacy between a couple in love within the bond of marriage and everything is fine according to the Catholic church. I knew there was a way out of this problem!!
Just follow the rules!!!
‘Who am I to say what is rational and what is not’???

That is not what I said and you know it. A mortal sin is when you know something is wrong but you go ahead and do it anyway and are not sorry for it. You have sinned against God and put you soul in mortal danger. Personally I see no humor in this.

I said that if Tony did this and knew he was sinning against God, and does not feel remorse before he dies he is in the state of mortal sin. Unrepented sin is sin of the soul and death of the soul and you cannot enter heaven. I see no humor in this.

Only God and Tony can come to terms with this. All we can do is pray for him. Again I see no humor in anyone who could be denied the glory of God.

 

[1voice]

… but I believe in my heart Tony and GOd will work this out and it will be okay.

Me too.

… and you describe my thoughts exactly … it is between Tony, his wife and God.

The only difference that I see between the Catholic way and the way that other good Christians handle a situation like that is that they go straight to the conclusion that you came to above without all the Catholic hoops in between.

 

[1voice]

That is not what I said and you know it. A mortal sin is when you know something is wrong but you go ahead and do it anyway and are not sorry for it. You have sinned against God and put you soul in mortal danger. Personally I see no humor in this.

I said that if Tony did this and knew he was sinning against God, and does not feel remorse before he dies he is in the state of mortal sin. Unrepented sin is sin of the soul and death of the soul and you cannot enter heaven. I see no humor in this.

Only God and Tony can come to terms with this. All we can do is pray for him. Again I see no humor in anyone who could be denied the glory of God.

You havent proven that Tony did anything against the word of God.