Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[Alex337]

We’re a varied bunch. I met a Buddhist Quaker in the UK and there are atheist Quakers too: Welcome to a budding Buddhist Quaker… by Anthony Manousos - Quaker Universalist Voice

http://www.nontheistfriends.org

In Aus we’ve been doing same sex marriages for 8 years, and did unions before that.

 

[jcrichton]

The problem is that the doctrines of Christ never needed reforming.

I love this!

I often speak of the Holy Spirit, the other Paraclete, Unfolding the Truth, as Jesus Promised; the Salvific Plan was done and done right from the Beginning; yet, it was Unfolded, according to God’s Design, throughout time (God’s Schedule) and it could still continue Unfolding till the Parousia. Yet, without change.

This reminds me of a line in a movie I loved: “Without change something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.” I think that much is taken from Scriptures or incorporated without full knowledge (‘use the force, Luke…’); yet, the other Paraclete, without change, sleeps in us and seldom awakens; the sleeper must awaken–it is God’s Plan that His Holy Spirit Bring us to the Fullness of Truth: Jesus is Life! He is Knowledge. This never changes. We mature in the Faith and He is Unfolded/Revealed.

Man cannot reform Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mcq72]

Not in the prism called bodies of Chris

Look, we have and are seeing what can happen when men are free to choose, just as we have seen what happens when they are denied such pursuit of free will…both have their good, bad and ugly to them.

 

[guanophore]

If a spouse wants to dissolve a marriage it is not a sin if an Anullment can be achieved, right?

No.

An anullment is a finding that a valid marriage never occurred.

Ok.
You deny the right to dissolve an abusive marriage.

Thank you for clearing that up for everyone.

No, Jesus taught that marriage is “until death do us part”.

It would be good if you could be clear on this point.

Matthew 19:6 So they are no longer two but one. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”

No human being has the right/authority to put asunder what God has joined.

What on Earth are you talking about?

@SnowRose was obviously unclear about what Jesus taught about marriage. Then she mistakenly accused you of making it up yourself, rather than stating what He taught.

It does look a lot like you’re saying abuse cannot end a marriage in anything but the law. So the person remains, essentially, trapped in that marriage.

People enter freely into marriage. If they experience themselves as being “trapped” by it, then they are not walking in His grace. God’s love frees us to be our best selves.

I’ll just leave this sitting here, to prove that you consider an abused partner sinful.

No, SnowRose.

An abused person has been victimized and should seek safety, even if it means they separate from the abuser.

A married person does not commit a sin unless they pretend they are no longer married, and act as if they are able to enter a marriage when they are already in one.

It would be hideous to be trapped in such a marriage

Such a statement reflects an inadequate understanding of God’s plan for our lives.

 

[guanophore]

I’m glad that understanding of that teaching works for you.

Actually, many people endure suffering because of the teachings of Christ. Disciples don’t seek after “what works for me” but seek after following the Shepherd of our souls.

It’s not how everyone understands it and for many abused people it would be an obstacle between them and God.

Trauma is an obstacle whether a person is married or not. It makes it more difficult to trust. It is a challenge to grow with God through suffering. Most modern people want to minimize or their suffering, rather than embracing it.

I personally don’t believe God would…

Nothing like creating God in one’s own image!

God revealed Himself to humankind so that we would not end up with as many different opinions of what “God would…” as there are belly buttons!

Okay; would they then be divorced in the eyes of the Church too?

No. Jesus taught that no man can put asunder what God has joined.

Which Apostle Taught that?

@Alex337 is not Christian, so such information would not be relevant. He has already said that the writers of the NT are fallible.

I’m glad you found a faith that works for you. Have fun.

I am curious, Alex, now that you decided to leave the CC, why are you still on a Catholic forum? Isn’t there an engaging Quaker forum where you can encounter people that believe like you do?

 

[Alex337]

God’s love doesn’t stop an abusers fists.

 

[mcq72]

Yet, when the “different understandings” turn to different Gospel it is not the same Body!

You left out the word “within” the Body. Of course when differences extend to not being effectual to new life in Christ then obviously you are not of the Christian body…

 

[Alex337]

There is and I enjoy it thoroughly. But I also enjoy speaking with folks of other beliefs and there are even other non Catholics here.

 

[guanophore]

wonder if some other Lord directive is not failinging in strict adherence and interpretation

I am not sure I am following you here. Are you referring to the successor of Peter as a “Lord” who is failing to interpret Scripture properly?

such as call no man father except He that is in heaven

Did anyone you know celebrate fathers’ day today? Were they sinning to refer to their paternal progenitor as “father”?

avoid vain and repetitious prayers etc…

I think you may be making reference to Catholics engaging in “vain and repetitious prayers”. Can you give an example?

God’s love doesn’t stop an abusers fists.

It will if they want it to. But if not, the target living in a different building will prevent the fists from reaching.

 

[Alex337]

And I still don’t believe that such a marriage would be valid. God doesn’t condone such abuse.

 

[guanophore]

And I still don’t believe that such a marriage would be valid. God doesn’t condone such abuse.

I understand. There are as many opinions as there are belly buttons.

Catholics use the opinion of Jesus. We believe that the New Testament is “theopneustos” (God breathed) and is inerrant. God does not condone abuse, neither does He condone more sin on top of the abuse.

 

[Alex337]

It would look that there’s a valid interpretation to say that Jesus saw abuse as a deal breaker too. but in the end of you’ve found an interpretation that works for you that’s great.

 

[guanophore]

It would look that there’s a valid interpretation to say that Jesus saw abuse as a deal breaker too.

Indeed, there are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons. I don’t know how they can all be “valid” since many directly oppose each other.

The whole point of marriage being indissoluble is so that there are no “deal breakers”. Marriage is meant to reflect His relationship with His Church which does not have “deal breakers”.

but in the end of you’ve found an interpretation that works for you that’s great.

No, suffering is not something that “works for” people. We endure suffering, and God works it to our good, but it is ridiculous to say suffering is “great” or something to make someone happy. Absurd, really.

 

[SnowRose]

Nope, I am in no way unclear about what the CC teaches about divorce.
I was using polite questioning to make you state it repeatedly for all to see. Then I thanked you for it.

Thank you.

 

[Alex337]

Well, you seem happy with a belief in suffering. I mean you defend abusers as being a valid marriage when they seem to be very much against the standard vows given.

If marriage reflects His relationship with His church then either we would accept the idea that God could be an abuser, rapist or other terrible things (which I don’t) or that the Church could do such things unrepentedly and still be called His partner. I thought committing such sin without penance led a person to be outside of grace.

 

[guanophore]

Well, you seem happy with a belief in suffering.

I guess that depends upon how one defines “happy”. I believe that Jesus was crucified for our sins. I don’t think he was “happy” when they smashed a crown of thorns on his head and pounded nails through his hands and feet.

One thing I very much appreciate about Catholicism is that it makes sense out of suffering.

I mean you defend abusers as being a valid marriage when they seem to be very much against the standard vows given.

I guess I can’t see what one thing has to do with the other. Violating marriage vows does not make the marriage invalid. It means a person committed a grave sin.

If marriage reflects His relationship with His church then either we would accept the idea that God could be an abuser, rapist or other terrible things (which I don’t) or that the Church could do such things unrepentedly and still be called His partner.

The Church cannot sin, because it is protected by His Spirit from falling into error. People who are members of the Church do sin (repeatedly) yet He keeps His promise to remain with us until the end of the age.

God’s commitment not to abandon His Church is inviolable, just as is the marriage bond.

He will never abandon or forsake His Bride, no matter how badly some members of her behave.

I thought committing such sin without penance led a person to be outside of grace.

Yes, people do fall from grace, but He is always ready to receive them back. He does not “divorce” us because we are unfaithful.

 

[BoyGenius]

Do you believe God calls believers to be preachers and teachers in churches separated from Holy Communion with the Bishop of Rome?

Well, to quote Saint Jerome: “Ignorance of Scripture, is ignorance of Christ.”

Preaching and teaching would have to rest on knowledge of Christ (i.e. what He said, taught, and preached.)

He also selected the Twelve, laid His hands upon them, and granted them the keys to tie/bind, and let loose. He selected one of the Twelve (Saint Peter) to which He set His Rock on. Simon became Peter (i.e. Rock.)

If any preacher/teacher does not believe in Christ’s True and Real Presence. Then they doubt His very words as the crowds also disbelieved, and left Him. Except the Twelve, wherefore Saint Peter said Jesus had the Words of Eternal Life. And thus, they believed in the True and Real Presence: The Holy Eucharist.

Preachers and teachers can be separated from the Eucharist. But, they will have to be sorted out as the Pharisee’s or the Sadducee’s. Or to be treated as Tax Collector’s. That is they are ignorant of Christ. And thus, they will have intertwined in a broken system, ignorance. Scripture without Christ in the True and Real Presence, is broken. It’s like having road signs pointing to Him as He set down in the Gospel. And then denying He is really there.

I think preaching and teaching is good as long as it points to Christ and His Church. But when a preacher/teacher stands in the way to Conversion. I think then and believe people oppose Christ and His Church. And therefore, speak in ignorance.

So, does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist? And the answer is: no, He does not. He rather calls them to live/thrive on the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Alex337]

If neither can sin then it’s not actually like marriage at all.

 

[rcwitness]

Alex, I have to say that it does not appear that you are Christian. I don’t want to accuse you of this, but cannot help from getting the strong impression that you do not believe in several tenants of the Christian faith.

If you are Christian, you would believe the Scriptures to be inerrant.

I’m not hear to judge! But I’m trying to discuss Christian Communion and divided denominations. If you are not Christian, I don’t see why you would be engaging in this debate.

If you are Christian, I believe you have some issues to come to terms with, and this movement called Quakers is not in line with the Christian faith!

Your insistent claim that God revealed Himself to you, and you now believe this spirit to be righteous despite compelling you to doubt Scripture’s inerrancy, is very outside of Christianity.

Christianity is very different from relativism, and public revelation was delivered by Jesus to His Apostles and professed by the Church since Pentecost.

The Christian understanding of Scripture being the inspired word of God is essential to all Christians.

Yes, we (Christians) debate many meanings of Scripture, but we still have to first believe that God did inspire the Church to write, and preserve, and declare a body of writings as Scripture, which is a crucial witness to divine revelation.

 

[Alex337]

You may say that you’re not here to judge, but it’s wrapped in a lot of judgement.