Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[jcrichton]

I am not sure what you are meaning to say here, but the Catechism clearly states that those who are validly baptized are members of His One Body, the Church.

You continue to view Jesus’ Command to eat/chew His Flesh (Body) and drink His Blood as a symbol or gesture of “remembrance;” Jesus did not set up a symbolic meal remembrance command.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

So it goes to prove the Word of God:

12 Now, brethren, I desire you should know, that the things which have happened to me, have fallen out rather to the furtherance of the gospel: 13 So that my bands are made manifest in Christ, in all the court, and in all other places; 14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, growing confident by my bands, are much more bold to speak the word of God without fear. 15 Some indeed, even out of envy and contention; but some also for good will preach Christ. 16 Some out of charity, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 17 And some out of contention preach Christ not sincerely: supposing that they raise affliction to my bands. 18 But what then? So that by all means, whether by occasion, or by truth, Christ be preached: in this also I rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. (Philippians 1)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. 28 And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. (Romans 8)

So while the Holy Spirit does not circumvent Christ’s Foundation of His One Body, God is able to take man’s dissensions and division and infuse, through the Holy Spirit, the Truth compelling man to seek Unity in the One Body. Sadly, the spirit of egocentrism and pride keeps man from humbly subjecting himself to Christ’s Command to Love and Be One.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

InquiringByzantine:

No. In no instances would God “ever” call people to a life outside His Church. He created His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and instituted the Sacraments so that we can have life in Him. There is no life outside of His Church. Protestants do not have the Eucharist. Billy Graham was NOT an example of anything other than an obstinate heretic. And here is my reasoning. Throughout his life he encountered MANY Catholics and would have no doubt studied Catholicism at “seminary”. Even if what he learned there was erroneous, he would still have managed to learn enough about Catholicism from his encounters and dialogue with Catholics that he ought to have, in charity for Truth, pursued studying the matter. Yet he didn’t. Or if he did, he didn’t permit himself to give up his good life to follow Christ into His Church. That is NOT an example “any” Christian should follow. Billy Graham led countless souls away from Christ and His Church and his legacy continues to do so even after his death.

I find this post very offensive to Billy Graham and all Christians either Catholic or non-Catholic. If he had wanted a real money tree he would have at least capitalized on it by joining the CC so that he could write books and travel around giving seminars like some others have done. This kind of garbage is breaking the commandment about giving false witness. To a Catholic I believe that is a mortal sin.

I would have to agree with wannano on this one, for the most part. But both have some valid points, while both go to the extreme.

If you are inferring that I went to the extreme, I am quite open to hearing your perspective.

 

[jcrichton]

Actually, yes!

I fully concur with you!

Jesus, the ultimate ET is found Fully only in the Catholic Church; thank you for making that point!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Did you not state that there was a “community” founded by Christ?

Do you not reject the Catholic Church as that community?

Other than the Catholic Church, what other entity is there that can be traced back to the Founding of Christ’s Church?

Ergo, for the Catholic Church to not be that community, Christ’s Founded community must have had dissolved.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wannano]

rcwitness:

would have to agree with wannano on this one, for the most part. But both have some valid points, while both go to the extreme.

I think original post was deleted…cant find it

You can see the original in my post 1956. Thankfully, we still have moderators doing their job.

 

[jcrichton]

You ignore that prior to the New Covenant’s Written Tradition (Sacred Scriptures) the Oral Tradition existed. It is in the Oral Tradition that Jesus’ Teachings and the Founding and Unfolding of the Church took place.

Yet you, unequivocally, have claimed that there exist no record of Christ’s Founded Church and His Teachings–in your vision the Apostles just stood around waiting for the New Covenant’s Writings to take place; that’s that 1500 years gap, isn’t it (nothing happened till Luther said it did and how he and his followers/co-revisionists reveal it)?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yet, St. Paul himself attests the opposite:

9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. 11 For I give you to understand, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion: how that, beyond measure, I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. 14 And I made progress in the Jews’ religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more abundantly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased him, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles, immediately I condescended not to flesh and blood. 17 Neither went I to Jerusalem, to the apostles who were before me: but I went into Arabia, and again I returned to Damascus. 18 Then, after three years, I went to Jerusalem, to see Peter, and I tarried with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord. (Galatians 1)

St. Paul is not saying that he was instructed for 3 years (v 18)–this is a conjecture/construct that man has created (as with St. Paul falling from a horse when Jesus sought him out or Jesus “writing” the names/sins of the accusers of the woman “caught in the act” of adultery); rather, St. Paul is adamant that his Gospel (which is the same as the other Apostles) was given to him by Christ Himself (vv. 11, 12, 15, 16, 17)–St. Paul demonstrates that it was Divine Revelation not man’s instruction that brought him to the Fullness of the Faith; the same infusing of the Holy Spirit as St. John Received in his mom’s womb–which his mom also received as the Holy Spirit moved them both to the understanding of the Truth: Jesus is the Immanuel: the God-with-us.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I concur!

But the Holy Spirit does not compel man to splinter the Body of Christ; rather, the Holy Spirit compels man to return to the Unity of the One Body.

Once the Catholic Church came to this understanding the Church was able to ascertain that even those who left the Unity but remain in the Teaching of the Apostles (even if they venture outside and refuse to return to the fold) are part of the Body of Christ.

Yet, when people teach immorality or political correctness as a Doctrinal Teaching (Apostolic Teaching) that group/s have, to borrow a past term, excommunicated themselves as they practice heresy.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Let’s see if I can clarify:

If all that had taken place was gathering bread and wine from the homes/places of those who could not attend the Breaking of the Break, the practice would actually be symbolic–like “playing electric guitar.”

However, since the Church did not believe in a “symbolic” feast, the actual particulars that were used to Celebrate the Lord’s Supper were divided so that even those who were absent (I am compelled to believe through no fault of their own) could Partake of the Braking of the Bread with the whole Body of the Church.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wannano]

I concur!

But the Holy Spirit does not compel man to splinter the Body of Christ; rather, the Holy Spirit compels man to return to the Unity of the One Body.

Once the Catholic Church came to this understanding the Church was able to ascertain that even those who left the Unity but remain in the Teaching of the Apostles (even if they venture outside and refuse to return to the fold) are part of the Body of Christ.

Yet, when people teach immorality or political correctness as a Doctrinal Teaching (Apostolic Teaching) that group/s have, to borrow a past term, excommunicated themselves as they practice heresy.

Maran atha!

Angel

When I get a message from you saying “I concur!” I am very grateful. A problem I have with the way you post is that I have to go back many posts to figure out just what it is you agree with me on.

I am not a computer geek at all so I feel inadequate suggesting a procedure to you, however, I think it would be helpful in understanding your posts. When you push the REPLY button and you see the little rectangular box in which you type your reply, touch the little quotation mark ’ in the top left of the box before typing your reply. That action then brings up and presents the post you are referencing which enables the receiver to determine which post you are responding to.

Hope that helps.

I have not yet determined how to isolate statements within a given post that I would like to respond to so if someone else reading this wants to explain it to me I would be grateful!

 

[jcrichton]

It’s conclusion from faulty evidence.

This happens even to the best of theologians and other scholars.

People see something and begin to accept their understanding as God’s
Revelation.

Here’s the secret to it: if it is not against Apostolic Teaching, personal understanding can be personal Revelation (ie.: the means by which the Hoy Spirit is able to convict/teach a person). It took years for the Apostles to understand that they had to leave the Temple and the synagogues and gather in a Christian format (Church)–yet, Christ Revealed that to the Samaritan woman in St. John 4; moreover, Jesus Revealed it to the Apostles that they could not bear all of the Truth at that time (which would include Worship and Doctrine) and that it would be the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, Who would bring them the Fullness of the Truth.

One wrong conclusion that the Apostles began to formulate as fact was the Parousia being imminent (during their own lifetime); yet, as Scriptures Reveal they came to understand that to the Lord a thousand years is like a day and yesterday as a thousand years.

So it is not surprising that in our zealousness to Know God even the best intentions can lead us, at best, to the wrong conclusions and, at worst, astray (just ask Luther why he regretted the generosity of the papists and the miserliness of his followers).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, the early church was also accused of cannibalism by pagans, and the response was denial of eating human flesh, but that they eat bread representing His flesh

Could you please demonstrate where your claim is founded in any text (Church Teachings of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th centuries)?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I do not make the charge,yet you would not deny that you eat His flesh and drink His Blood, joined to Divine but still human flesh and blood, and if it is spiritual eating by faith it does not change the eating of human flesh and drinking of blood(glorified or not).

Your problem is in understanding God’s Revelation.

It is not up to me to distinguish between a spiritual transformation of the bread and wine into Christ’s Body/Flesh and Blood; it is for me to accept that Jesus Commands me to ‘eat My Flesh/Body and drink My Blood.’ It is not for me to know how this “transubstantiation” happens but to accept Him at HIs Command: “this (bread) is My Body; this, (wine) is My Blood.”

Please search Scriptures for answers; they are there. Have you read St. John 3? Why were the Hebrews healed was it because they put their faith in Moses or the Brazen Serpent?

It was neither, correct?

It was because they OBEYED God’s Command to look upon the image of that which brought them torture and death and expect to be saved!

Jesus uses this very visual to center Believers not in some quote of Scriptures but on His Sacrifice on the Cross: Look (at the Crucified One), Obey, Believe, and Be Saved!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mcq72]

You ignore that prior to the New Covenant’s Written Tradition (Sacred Scriptures) the Oral Tradition existed. It is in the Oral Tradition that Jesus’ Teachings and the Founding and Unfolding of the Church took place.

ignored nothing rather asked what does Oral Tradition teach about how they recognized Jesus in the breaking of bread, that would make several suppositions posted obsolete ?

 

[jcrichton]

OT mankind looked forward to the Messiah/Calvary as a faith promise as we look back as a faith fulfillment…Calvary is at center of salvation for all mankind, from Adam to the last man standing.

NOT!
__
Christ’s Revelation was not given to mankind but to God’s prophets:

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace to come in you. 11 Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow: 12 To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look. 13 Wherefore having the loins of your mind girt up, being sober, trust perfectly in the grace which is offered you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, 14 As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: 15 But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: (1 St. Peter 1)

Mankind refuses to enter into God’s Holiness (St. John 3:14-21).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not seeing corruption is what, not taking on sin, or not going back to dust in the grave (decomposing) ?

This passage is talking about the decomposition of the human body as death takes hold of it; this is not talking about Jesus’ taking (or not taking, as I guess you are suggesting) the sin of the world onto Himself.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, but conditional…Jesus must turn the keys first…and thru the leading of the Holy Ghost we follow suite on earth…we (church) do not turn key then Jesus follows us turning His key in heaven.

…so Jesus has it wrong?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Now if you could just see all churches alike , that is all of them judged by their alignment to the Perfect Head of the body, not a perfect Catholic Church and all others judged by their alignment to her. ( Or at least to the perfect Cornerstone, and His twelve apostles, or then add to their writ, then lastly to any universal tradition)

But you cannot have multiple Gospels.

That is why it has to remain One Faith, One Gospel, One Baptism, One Holy Spirit, One Lord, One God.

A group of people cannot claim to represent Christ while rejecting Christ!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

When I get a message from you saying “I concur!” I am very grateful. A problem I have with the way you post is that I have to go back many posts to figure out just what it is you agree with me on.

I apologize if you have been getting the short-end of it; I always use the reply box directly related to the post I am responding to; I use quotes within that post if I’m making more than one point (to breakdown the response).

I think that this response was on the quote you made of the CCC (Church: Catholic Church: all the bodies that hold the same Faith according to the signed agreement); the point I meant to make is that while there is that “Catholic” unity due to the understanding of the One God, One Baptism, One Gospel, One Holy Spirit, One Lord… there are those (even in Catholicism) that negate their profession of Faith as they embrace social/cultural teachings (divorce, abortion, homosexuality…); when this happens these entities are actually excommunicating themselves from the Body of Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel

PS. I will attempt to be less ambiguous on my future posting.