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mcq72
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beg to differ, for such is the depravity of man, the power of sin. Very few accept it.
Yet so true, many not genuine, but no worse “statistics” than say infant baptism.
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Yet so true, many not genuine, but no worse “statistics” than say infant baptism.
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jcrichton
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Again, you miss the point.
Scriptures warn about wanting to be “teachers.”
It tells people that those who “teach” are going to be held accountable for what they teach and for whom they teach–the Church cannot Teach ‘do whatever you want, salvation.’
She must warn that to reject the Body of Christ is death.
Putting away Christ to join the world is death.
Returning to God is the means to returning to Grace through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession); we must make ourselves right with God:
Maran atha!
Angel
Scriptures warn about wanting to be “teachers.”
It tells people that those who “teach” are going to be held accountable for what they teach and for whom they teach–the Church cannot Teach ‘do whatever you want, salvation.’
She must warn that to reject the Body of Christ is death.
Putting away Christ to join the world is death.
Returning to God is the means to returning to Grace through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession); we must make ourselves right with God:
Teaching people to Worship as Cain Worshipped is leading people to grave danger.
Maran atha!
Angel
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mcq72
Guest
Once again agree, with the important addition of the witness of the Spirit within , that witnesses to us that are adopted.
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jcrichton
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Again, nothing gained.
Say you are non-Catholic and I say you are ok with Christ, why would you want to come to the Catholic Church. Say you are a devoted Catholic and I say to you that non-Catholic Christians are part of the Body while not fully in the Faith, why would that shake your personal Faith?
Maran atha!
Angel
Say you are non-Catholic and I say you are ok with Christ, why would you want to come to the Catholic Church. Say you are a devoted Catholic and I say to you that non-Catholic Christians are part of the Body while not fully in the Faith, why would that shake your personal Faith?
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Please do not highlight partial quotes… I have no fear to accept non-Catholics Christians as brethren who do not share the fullness of the Faith; my Faith does not suffer because others chose to remain outside of the fullness of Christ.
The Church will not crumble if Catholics leave–to think otherwise is to ignore Jesus’ Word: ‘not even hades will be able to destroy you and I will be with you till the end of age/time.’ (paraphrased)
The Church Strength is the Holy Spirit not the human members.
Maran atha!
Angel
The Church will not crumble if Catholics leave–to think otherwise is to ignore Jesus’ Word: ‘not even hades will be able to destroy you and I will be with you till the end of age/time.’ (paraphrased)
The Church Strength is the Holy Spirit not the human members.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
You don’t seem to understand Judaism much. There were two major schools (Pharisees and Sadducees) but there existed, as they do today, many many derivatives within Judaism–the difference is that to them it is not just a religious definition but a cultural definition; the ties that bind is stronger than Christians’.
…as for adding, you cannot add what is from the beginning–yet, you can diminish and reject (as non-Catholics) those portions that do not appeal to your personal “margin” of faith-base.
…and the splintering? Did Jesus not Taught that ‘you must chew my flesh and drink my blood?’ Many left Him then and there–did He call them back or did He continued His Ministry?
Maran atha!
Angel
…as for adding, you cannot add what is from the beginning–yet, you can diminish and reject (as non-Catholics) those portions that do not appeal to your personal “margin” of faith-base.
…and the splintering? Did Jesus not Taught that ‘you must chew my flesh and drink my blood?’ Many left Him then and there–did He call them back or did He continued His Ministry?
Maran atha!
Angel
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LilyM
Guest
Actually St Paul had to admonish those who neglected to gather together - so he did have to remind them of the importance of that obligation.jcrichton:
Amen…pretty sure they did not (or did not need to) decree a “mortal” penalty for missing one gathering
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LilyM
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Trust me, being Catholic is NOT about doctrines that make us “feel good” or knowledgeable, or quench guilt (“Catholic guilt” is something of an exaggeration, with significant basis in reality, unlike the undeard of “Baptist guilt” or “Non-denominational guilt”.) It is truly to follow the strait and narrow path.jcrichton:
Sad to say "knowledge " has caused many splinters. We love our “doctrines” so much . They make us feel good, and quench any guilt for not placing love above all else (something we were supposed to be known for.)
Interesting when knowledge was relatively small, they also felt better to begin to use civil authorities to enforce uniformity, replacing pacifying love.(Council of Nicene). Did that work out any better ?
So let us hold on to our interpretative convictions, and each commune amongst ourselves , declaring what is lawful or not to others.
On some things I am sure the Lord is saying, " What is that to you, how a brother or sister relate to Me ?"
To an outsider, most communion services look and sound quite alike…and yet they must eventually hear of all the underlying “knowledge”, of what should be in man’s heart, of what is genuine, even lawful.
I wonder how Judaism kept “knowledge” properly so as not to cause splinters , lawfulness or unlawfulness, in their Passover ? Aren’t we supposed to have a better covenant ?
Yes, better, and worthy to be attacked by the enemy. Sometimes he can not subvert truth directly , but resorts to adding what may not be true, and calling it revelation.
Nor does it preclude or diminish love by any stretch. Ask any married person or parent - love is a verb and not an emotion. Love is forcing yourself to do things that you otherwise would never do, for the sake of the beloved. And so yes, love is dragging your tired carcass out of your warm comfy bed on a Sunday to go to church when you’d really rather not, just as you might drag your tired carcass out of your warm comfy bed on a Saturday to take your child to sport when you’d really rather not.
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Benadam
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I don’t say this to offend.There is a sublime distinction between the Gospel according to the Catholic Church and Gospels preached by our separated brethren. Words betray the heart. When I read or listen to the words from separated brethren, underlying everything is the belief that the Truth does not exist in any one communion on earth. There is no people of God you can point to. No Church that can be pointed out to someone and say ‘there it is’. To me that mentality is a natural consequence when someone is a Christian but separated from the community that Truth does belong to. The thought that Jesus promises were to a community that is a visible material reality until the end of time is impossible for our separated brethren. So Protestants invariably speak of the Church as a misty reality that can’t be pointed at directly. Go to this place, they have alot of Truth, that place you might like the way they teach Jesus and so forth.
The Catholic Church doesn’t do that. The CC acts and teaches like a community that the Truth belongs to. This bothers alot of our separated brethren. I identify that as a foundation of doctrinal differences. I love that about my faith. It walks and talks as if the Truth belongs to it because it does. That characteristic singles out the Catholic faith. That is why the Church is misunderstood so much today. How dare anyone act like Jesus is theirs more than anyone else? Well, no one else acts or thinks that way because it isn’t true for them. If it were true then they would act and think that way too.
The Catholic Church doesn’t do that. The CC acts and teaches like a community that the Truth belongs to. This bothers alot of our separated brethren. I identify that as a foundation of doctrinal differences. I love that about my faith. It walks and talks as if the Truth belongs to it because it does. That characteristic singles out the Catholic faith. That is why the Church is misunderstood so much today. How dare anyone act like Jesus is theirs more than anyone else? Well, no one else acts or thinks that way because it isn’t true for them. If it were true then they would act and think that way too.
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steve-b
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And the word “believes” is loaded with depth, definition, and requirements.
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steve-b
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As I previously posted an excerpt Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist - #230 by steve-b from Fr Longenecker’s commentary What We Can Learn From Billy Graham | Fr. Dwight Longenecker
There is a lot more that can be said.
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rcwitness
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If you believed that His Eucharist is actually Himself, then you would see the connection that His body and blood both brought the Spirit and suffered loss which atoned for sin against God.guanophore:
Well, perhaps Calvary/Christ crucified is the summit and source of our faith , and we then Eucharist,(are thankful and remember Jesus at Calvary, till His return.)
We acknowledge that His Eucharist is the same substance of the living Christ, though in a different form (not visibly human or bloody)
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Justme3
Guest
I think the question can be a little confusing. I’m a Catholic convert and came from a church which claimed to be the only true church. There are certain graces which are present in other churches but only the fullness of God’s truth is found in the Catholic church. When I told my family the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, I was mocked. It really is sad because I love my family. I feel like the woman at the well, running into town and testifying of Christ but so many are saying, “We already have his words we don’t need to meet him personally. We know all about him.” I know God calls all people to Eat of His Flesh and Drink of His Blood so they can have Eternal Life. I felt Christ in my other religion and I had a very good relationship with Christ as my Savior and Redemer but I didn’t meet him personally until I took my First Communion. We are called to love all but God wants us as His Own in Communion with Him.
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guanophore
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For Catholics this is one and the same. The “rememberance” is anamnesis, like the Passover, it is an enacted memorial during which the actual Lamb is consumed. This is why Jesus was so adamant about it in John 6.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
Sacred Tradition, preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in the Church, came from the Jews. Passover was preserved in the same way the Eucharistic celebration is preserved. The structure was given to the faithful, who followed what was received, then later written.
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for[c] you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. I Cor:11
This is the paradosis - the process of receiving the divine revelation, and passing it on to the next believer.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
These sacred traditions, passed down to us from the Apostles, are revered on the same level as Scripture, and are the substance of what produced the NT.
I think you are saying that Satan has subverted the Gospel with Catholics, adding things to the CC that are “not true” and co-opting Catholics into calling it “revelation”.
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guanophore
Guest
I was one of these Catholics. It took me decades to figure out I was looking for the very thing I had left!
As the Catechism says, God uses these protestant ecclesial communities as a call to unity.
It is a fact that many Protestants do more with less.
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Wannano
Guest
If you think that acting and thinking that Jesus is more theirs than anyone else is a mark of true reality, and that the CC is the only visible entity that portrays that, you must have poor eyesight.
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mcq72
Guest
I believe in passover the symboly/lamb is consumed, but the foreshadow symbol is not the actual Lamb of God, just as we consume the bread/symbol, being an aftershadow of Calvary
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guanophore
Guest
I think you are saying that the Lamb consumed by the Israelites on the first Passover was a type of the Lamb of God that was to come?
Well, you have embraced a point of view that was not taught by the Apostles, and is inconsistent with what they taught their disciples. Persons in the days of the early church who embraced this view were called heretics.
The anamnesis is not an “aftershadow”. In fact, the context of the Eucharist {the Passover) is an enacted rememberance - designed to bring the participants present to the Exodus. Eucharist is an enactment to bring us to the foot of the cross.
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pnewton
Guest
We cannot know the mind of God, but we can try and discern some of it. We are to do this by looking at the fruits one bears. By that measure, it is hard to think that he was far outside the place God wanted him. God sees the bigger picture easier that we do.
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steve-b
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Without more clarity, that can suggest a type of indifferentism. It could presume universal equality of all choices of faith communities. Without clarity, It could ignore or be indifferent to error within those communities.steve-b:
Billy Graham was working in the tradition of Apollos. A truncated Gospel is no less a Gospel. He was always clear that a convert needed to find a faith community in which to become nourished and discipled.
Re: witness to the Gospel
In Catholic understanding, In order for one to be in heresy formally, i.e. (knowing they are formally against Church doctrine/teaching and won’t change) or materially,(don’t know they are formally against a doctrine/teaching) they first need to have been baptized.
Billy was baptized. And he was more than well educated in scripture.
Baptism is key, for how a follower of any heresy , can be considered in heresy Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 2089 (either formally or materially). A short list (not exhaustive) of historical heresies The Great Heresies | Catholic Answers
note: Protestantism is listed among them.
So I ask,
How then, can one who follows in any heresy, according to Church teaching, be good to follow as a witness to the Gospel?
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