Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“Very few would refuse the gift of knowing they are going to heaven for sure”

The greatest reason this is faulty is because not once in Scriptures are we given this assurance, not by Jesus, not by Peter, not by Paul… none; not once!

Maran atha!

Angel

bringing that quote of Fr Longenecker into context

Fr Longenecker said

““…Billy Graham’s simple message relied on the doctrine of eternal security. “If you died tonight do you know that you would go to heaven? If the answer is ‘no’ then you need to make sure. You need to come forward and receive Jesus and know that you are going to heaven when you die.” This is a very powerful and attractive appeal. Who would say ‘No’? Very few would refuse the gift of knowing they are going to heaven for sure.”

IOW,

Yes

OSAS, that Billy preached, is what’s being challenged by Fr Longenecker. Yes, one won’t find that in scripture. I’m sure, Billy misled a WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE on that teaching of his. Which led to my question, what Gospel was Billy preaching?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

“Very few would refuse the gift of knowing they are going to heaven for sure”.

beg to differ, for such is the depravity of man, the power of sin. Very few accept it.

Yet so true, many not genuine, but no worse “statistics” than say infant baptism.

How does that answer Fr Longenecker’s point?

Would you refuse the gift of knowing ahead of time, whether you were going to heaven or not in your current condition?

 

[mcq72]

I think you are saying that the Lamb consumed by the Israelites on the first Passover was a type of the Lamb of God that was to come?

mcq72:

I believe i mean that the lamb at passover celebrations was/ were lambs, small “l”, but symbolically foreshadowing the Lamb, but it was not His flesh…

Not sure anywhere in OT do you have “spiritual food”, that foods/drinks used in holy rituals were symbolic, but still food…the food helped the body but the holy ritual helped the spirit, in understanding

 

[mcq72]

The anamnesis is not an “aftershadow”. In fact, the context of the Eucharist {the Passover) is an enacted rememberance - designed to bring the participants present to the Exodus. Eucharist is an enactment to bring us to the foot of the cross.

Semantics…same thing…the Calvary you remember,bring to present, is from the past, or “after” the fact.

We are enacting something from past , as Passover did, and both with future implications ( one his first coming, the other his second coming)

 

[Benadam]

If you think that acting and thinking that Jesus is more theirs than anyone else is a mark of true reality, and that the CC is the only visible entity that portrays that, you must have poor eyesight.

Do you believe the Truth belongs to any one institutional Church?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

with all respect

I would just make this observation and ask the following questions

Jesus instituted the sacraments for our salvation. Billy wasn’t sacramental.

Jesus instituted the Catholic Church on Peter and those in union with Peter. Billy wasn’t in the Catholic Church

Jesus condemned division. Billy was divided

Jesus said,“if you love me keep my commandments”

was any of the above suggestions or commandments?

What Gospel and what Jesus, was Billy preaching?

Thank you.

Again, what I really posted was that first things be first.

You must be born again before anything sacramental happens.

You must be born again before you can be in union with Peter, “catholic”, in unity, or keep any commandment beyond the first , which is to obtain eternal life , beginning with new life.

Isn’t it good news that all the things you list and love and exhort, are all possible but only thru a new beginning, a new birth, to be born again, by faith and grace ?

But i understand the wrench comes in when one needs a sacrament to be born again, even though they have obtained saving faith in Christ by grace, per evolving in CC doctrine.

And

It’s not baptism alone. Baptism opens the door. Much is required after that.

 

[MichaelP3]

I always find this type of “insinuations” interesting. Many Catholics repeatedly basically claim a patent on the Bible but also more than they should on Jesus Himself.

A Catholic I very much respect but not on the new CAF told me once, “prod them with a stick and ask if they claim the invention of fire as well?”.

 

[mcq72]

And

It’s not baptism alone. Baptism opens the door. Much is required after that.

of course…it is a new life.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And

It’s not baptism alone. Baptism opens the door. Much is required after that.

of course…it is a new life.

For a further explanation, of baptism, http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=baptism&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[mcq72]

How does that answer Fr Longenecker’s point?

Just saying he is wrong when he says few will reject gift of eternal life (that Jesus as Savior is rejected even when no preaching about Jesus as Lord )

Would you refuse the gift of knowing ahead of time, whether you were going to heaven or not in your current condition?

yes, I did for some years and refused more than a few impassioned offerings.

But I agree that a faith profession just for “get out of jail card” is not genuine, poor soil that Jesus speaks…yet fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge and wisdom , and self preservation is indeed a God given desire/motive…yet weak by the fall …so much so that it is Gods’ intervention to preserve us that breaks us, and draws us, and strengthen’s us…I mean he wants us saved more than we do .

As to refusal of assurance first mentioned…reminds me of the the novena promises , or where you do 9 first Fridays(mass/communion) and are promised assurance of eternal life…yet how many people /priest do them ?

 

[mcq72]

OSAS, that Billy preached, is what’s being challenged by Fr Longenecker. Yes, one won’t find that in scripture. I’m sure, Billy misled a WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE on that teaching of his. Which led to my question, what Gospel was Billy preaching?

Are you sure he was calvinist, OSAS? Never heard him preach , come down here tonight , confess Christ and no matter what you do hereafter, you are saved .

Dying tonight , is not quite the same as the rest of your life analysis. it is in the bible to call on the name of the Lord, to be born again, to confess Him before men, and you will be confessed before the Father, for this is the hour of salvation ,let not the future be one’s cop out…so in terms of dying “tonight”, certainly says nothing, does not address OSAS, and if one can’t feel assured for ten minutes to several hours till "tonight, like the thief on the cross, then that is just as bad extreme as hard liner, 5 pointer, OSAS etc.

 

[mcq72]

It is a fact that many Protestants do more with less.

lol…indeed we are stripped of so many religious rituals

Richard Wurmbrand. minister imprisoned by Russians years ago had sermon “the power of nothing”…about how almost stripped naked in a small cell with nothing but a bucket inside for years , yet his relationship with Christ was raw and genuine and unbreakable, and the both of them in glory.

 

[deMontfort]

A lot of Arminian Baptists (and Graham was an Arminian) preach “once saved, always saved”. See Charles Stanley.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

How does that answer Fr Longenecker’s point?

Just saying he is wrong when he says few will reject gift of eternal life (that Jesus as Savior is rejected even when no preaching about Jesus as Lord )

steve-b:

I think you misunderstand his point. He’s saying that someone like Billy claiming one can be assured of Eternal security for just saying a few words, who wouldn’t want to hear and believe THAT? That’s his point. It’s provocative, but erronious.

Would you refuse the gift of knowing ahead of time, whether you were going to heaven or not in your current condition?

msq72:

yes, I did for some years and refused more than a few impassioned offerings.

But I agree that a faith profession just for “get out of jail card” is not genuine, poor soil that Jesus speaks…yet fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge and wisdom , and self preservation is indeed a God given desire/motive…yet weak by the fall …so much so that it is Gods’ intervention to preserve us that breaks us, and draws us, and strengthen’s us…I mean he wants us saved more than we do .

True. He desires all to be saved. He makes that possible, if one follows His plan. He forces no one to follow or obey His instructions that lead one to heaven. He does lay out the consequences for the one who won’t do it His way and instead does their way.

mcq72:

As to refusal of assurance first mentioned…reminds me of the the novena promises , or where you do 9 first Fridays(mass/communion) and are promised assurance of eternal life…yet how many people /priest do them ?

If one dies after the novena …then.

It doesn’t mean do one novena and you’re good to go to heaven for the rest of your life.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

OSAS, that Billy preached, is what’s being challenged by Fr Longenecker. Yes, one won’t find that in scripture. I’m sure, Billy misled a WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE on that teaching of his. Which led to my question, what Gospel was Billy preaching?

Are you sure he was calvinist, OSAS? Never heard him preach , come down here tonight , confess Christ and no matter what you do hereafter, you are saved .

Dying tonight , is not quite the same as the rest of your life analysis. it is in the bible to call on the name of the Lord, to be born again, to confess Him before men, and you will be confessed before the Father, for this is the hour of salvation ,let not the future be one’s cop out…so in terms of dying “tonight”, certainly says nothing, does not address OSAS, and if one can’t feel assured for ten minutes to several hours till "tonight, like the thief on the cross, then that is just as bad extreme as hard liner, 5 pointer, OSAS etc.

Billy preached eternal security. This is By Billy Graham • May 28, 2012 Once a person decides to follow Jesus, can they lose their salvation later on if they commit a major sin?

 

[mcq72]

If one dies after the novena …then.

It doesn’t mean do one novena and you’re good to go to heaven for the rest of your life.

Understand must remain in the faith, but assured none the less…I mean the suggested work has a value, an advantage so to speak

 

[mcq72]

Billy preached eternal security. This is By Billy Graham • May 28, 2012 I grew up in a very unhappy home -- lots of conflict, plus verbal and physical abuse.

Thank you …yes he did then, but with qualifications that he states, which is often misunderstood. You are not eternally secure “if you have no deeds done in faith , or live sinful life” (paraphrase Billy Graham))

 

[mcq72]

A lot of Arminian Baptists (and Graham was an Arminian) preach “once saved, always saved”. See Charles Stanley.

Thanks…here is some foundation

“Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny “conditional salvation” and instead hold to “eternal security.”” Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct? | GotQuestions.org

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If one dies after the novena …then.

It doesn’t mean do one novena and you’re good to go to heaven for the rest of your life.

Understand must remain in the faith, but assured none the less…I mean the suggested work has a value, an advantage so to speak

Yes it has value, no question. But it is NOT as was pointed out, a permanent once for all time, get outta jail free card. As Paul says, we have to persevere till the end less we be disqualified.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Billy preached eternal security. This is By Billy Graham • May 28, 2012 Once a person decides to follow Jesus, can they lose their salvation later on if they commit a major sin?

Thank you …yes he did then, but with qualifications that he states, which is often misunderstood. You are not eternally secure “if you have no deeds done in faith , or live sinful life” (paraphrase Billy Graham))

Billy doesn’t quite clarify those qualifications. Nor how one is forgiven of those sins. As Fr Longenecker mentioned, one could walk away from a crusade thinking they are eternally saved and no problems by reciting a few words.