Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[Wannano]

mcq72:

guanophore:

Do you really believe that, when Jesus calls a person, and they refuse to go to Him, they are not deliberately separating themselves from His call? If a person remains in such a state, why would Jesus expect they wanted to be with Him for an eternity? He created us with free will, so that we would love HIm freely. He allows us to spurn Him.

Just don’t think that going to church only 48 times instead of 52 constitute Paul’s “forsaking assembling”

I posted missing “one gathering”, and I should qualify an unexcused one (that is, one who was healthy and able), which by some churches standard is “mortal”, against church understanding of command.

Skipping one single meal, for a diabetic, can disrupt their blood sugar badly enough that they will slip into a coma and die.

I would suggest that our souls are certainly every bit as badly in need of the regular spiritual nourishment of Eucharist as the body of a diabetic is of regular phyiscal nourishment. So it is entirely plausible that missing a single one can have dire consequences.

I understood from the posts above that it is not the “missing” the Eucharist that is sinful but the attitude of the individuals heart that would display rebellion to God.

Certainly all of us who have been raised in churches practicing a non-sacre mental communion and never experiencing the Catholic Eucharist are still alive and well. Are there substantiated of cases of death that resulted from non-participation in the Eucharist? I have never heard a non-Catholic say anything like " I sense the Catholic Eucharist is what we should be doing but I am not doing it anyway."

 

[guanophore]

I understood from the posts above that it is not the “missing” the Eucharist that is sinful but the attitude of the individuals heart that would display rebellion to God.

It is both. A person who is ill or is not able to participate in Eucharist is not willfully turning against God. Jesus makes Himself present to us in the appearance of Bread and Wine. He teaches us that, if we do not eat His Body, and drink His Blood we will “have no life” in us. The Church is eager to foster the life of Christ within us, and enjoins us to be present and participate in the Mass, at the minimum, every Sunday.

Certainly all of us who have been raised in churches practicing a non-sacre mental communion and never experiencing the Catholic Eucharist are still alive and well.

There is no doubt that Protestants practicing spiritual communion often do more with less.

Are there substantiated of cases of death that resulted from non-participation in the Eucharist?

It would certainly be an interesting scientific study, but I think it is more likely that persons who receive in an unworthy state are eating and drinking condemnation upon themselves.

None of us can know the state of a persons’ soul before God, so we cannot judge if a person is walking around spiritually dead, or not.

I have never heard a non-Catholic say anything like " I sense the Catholic Eucharist is what we should be doing but I am not doing it anyway."

It happens every day, and not just with Eucharist, but other teachings of the Church. This is how mortal sin is defined.

 

[Wannano]

It happens every day, and not just with Eucharist, but other teachings of the Church. This is how mortal sin is defined.

---

For me to connect those dots I would need you to elaborate.

 

[guanophore]

For me to connect those dots I would need you to elaborate.

I do not think it would be appropriate for me to elaborate on how Catholics make a shipwreck of their faith by deliberately refusing to do what they know God has called them to do. Suffice do say that, just because you have not witnessed it, does not mean it is not occurring.

God calls us all to unity, always. He founded One Church, which is His One Body. He gave us One Eucharist. He commanded that we will not have life in us if we do not eat and drink of it. He does not want His disciples separate from it.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

For me to connect those dots I would need you to elaborate.

I do not think it would be appropriate for me to elaborate on how Catholics make a shipwreck of their faith by deliberately refusing to do what they know God has called them to do. Suffice do say that, just because you have not witnessed it, does not mean it is not occurring.

God calls us all to unity, always. He founded One Church, which is His One Body. He gave us One Eucharist. He commanded that we will not have life in us if we do not eat and drink of it. He does not want His disciples separate from it.

I see now that I was misunderstanding. You were referring to Catholics and I was referring to non-Catholics. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

mcq72:

steve-b:

Billy preached eternal security. This is By Billy Graham • May 28, 2012 Once a person decides to follow Jesus, can they lose their salvation later on if they commit a major sin?

Thank you …yes he did then, but with qualifications that he states, which is often misunderstood. You are not eternally secure “if you have no deeds done in faith , or live sinful life” (paraphrase Billy Graham))

Billy doesn’t quite clarify those qualifications. Nor how one is forgiven of those sins. As Fr Longenecker mentioned, one could walk away from a crusade thinking they are eternally saved and no problems by reciting a few words.

Im not really following your accusation steve.

I believe someone could walk away from a crusade believing they were eternally saved. Maybe even walk out of a bar, or a road trip somewhere and truly be eternally saved. Salvation can and does happen in a moment.

Maybe you are trying to distinguish that our salvation is not immune to falling away from eternal salvation?? Then you would have an Apostolic Teaching.

I thought that last point was clear understanding, particularly among Catholics

rcwitness:

Salvation is never intended to be temporal. Its only temporal if we turn away from it and choose sin over life.

And as Jesus told us in advance, most people turn away,

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

 

[mcq72]

. If a person refuses to gather with the Church on these days, then one has chosen to rebel against Him,

It seems like you are trying to have it both ways…the letter of the law rubbing against the spirit of the law

It is not a matter of “how many misses”, but the nature of the miss, the attitude of the heart

Seems like the church’s rules , defines tthe attitude…that is one unexcused miss , one “skipped meal”, is wrong…therfore the heart must be wrong…therein lies the “legalism”

Jesus never said how often we should commune, but did say as oft as you do, do it this way.

Paul implies it to be a good habit to assemble, for he is explicit that forsaking it (more than occasional absence) , “as some were in the habit of doing”, was bad.

There is a difference between a command and an exhortation. Does not seem to be apostolic to regulate attendance and call one unexcused abscence a sin. By all means a church has the free will to do it, even with good intention, just wouldn’t call it apostolic.

 

[goout]

And as Jesus told us in advance, most people turn away,

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

It’s a mistake to read this as a quantification of numbers, as if the passage is a notation of the “rolls of heaven” in an exclusionary sense. It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture.

Read the whole of Matthew 7 and revisit the meaning of this passage in that light. And reflect on the whole of the Gospel and especially the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. The narrow gate takes it’s fullest meaning in that light.

If you start by reading the whole chapter Mt 7, you should be troubled by the passage. We should all be awakened to our spiritual obesity. A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way. To the degree we rely on our own spiritual virtuosity, we are unable to be united with Him.

The Gospel is good news for every human being. The Gospel proposes life for everyone, and that is the light the Gospel should be read within.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

And as Jesus told us in advance, most people turn away,

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

It’s a mistake to read this as a quantification of numbers, as if the passage is a notation of the “rolls of heaven” in an exclusionary sense. It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture.

Read the whole of Matthew 7 and revisit the meaning of this passage in that light. And reflect on the whole of the Gospel and especially the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. The narrow gate takes it’s fullest meaning in that light.

If you start by reading the whole chapter Mt 7, you should be troubled by the passage. We should all be awakened to our spiritual obesity. A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way. To the degree we rely on our own spiritual virtuosity, we are unable to be united with Him.

The Gospel is good news for every human being. The Gospel proposes life for everyone, and that is the light the Gospel should be read within.

I gave Matthew AND LUKE.

Think of the question being asked to Jesus in Luke, is it really true Jesus, that only a few are saved? After all, It WAS a direct question to Jesus on this very subject. And Jesus answered directly.

Did Jesus
. say NO? of course NOT? Nope!
. did he correct the questioner in any way? Nope!
. could Jesus have clarified the issue had the questioner’s question been wrong? Yes
. Did Jesus correct the questioner? Nope. He validated the question and even doubled down on the answer
. if only a few are saved, what does that say about everybody else?

Now people on the left, liberals, their heads explode on this.

 

[steve-b]

None of us can know the state of a persons’ soul before God, so we cannot judge if a person is walking around spiritually dead, or not.

What then does someone do with the following teaching on judgement of sin in another’s actions?

1 Jn 5:16-17 1jn5:16-17 RSVCE - If any one sees his brother committing - Bible Gateway

 

[goout]

goout:

steve-b:

And as Jesus told us in advance, most people turn away,

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

It’s a mistake to read this as a quantification of numbers, as if the passage is a notation of the “rolls of heaven” in an exclusionary sense. It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture.

Read the whole of Matthew 7 and revisit the meaning of this passage in that light. And reflect on the whole of the Gospel and especially the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. The narrow gate takes it’s fullest meaning in that light.

If you start by reading the whole chapter Mt 7, you should be troubled by the passage. We should all be awakened to our spiritual obesity. A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way. To the degree we rely on our own spiritual virtuosity, we are unable to be united with Him.

The Gospel is good news for every human being. The Gospel proposes life for everyone, and that is the light the Gospel should be read within.

I gave Matthew AND LUKE.

Think of the question being asked to Jesus in Luke, is it really true Jesus, that only a few are saved? After all, It WAS a direct question to Jesus on this very subject. And Jesus answered directly.

Did Jesus
. say NO? of course NOT? Nope!
. did he correct the questioner in any way? Nope!
. could Jesus have clarified the issue had the questioner’s question been wrong? Yes
. Did Jesus correct the questioner? Nope. He validated the question and even doubled down on the answer
. if only a few are saved, what does that say about everybody else?

Now people on the left, liberals, their heads explode on this.

Read the whole passage from Luke.
You are using the passage in a false exclusionary sense to those who are not in perfect communion with the Church.
You are also using it in a sort of reductionist quantitative sense.

In fact, the passage is easily readable as a rebuke to those who ask “Lord, will only a few be saved?”:
“Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

If you read the passage as a whole, it is a fearsome warning to those who believe their salvation is attained by mere membership. The chapter is addressed to his own people.
(and none of this has anything whatsoever to do with liberal/conservative)

 

[steve-b]

I understood from the posts above that it is not the “missing” the Eucharist that is sinful but the attitude of the individuals heart that would display rebellion to God.

It’s actually the deliberate missing of the Eucharist, on the day, Sunday. THAT is grave sin described in Heb 10

Wannano:

Certainly all of us who have been raised in churches practicing a non-sacremental communion and never experiencing the Catholic Eucharist are still alive and well.

Wannano,

alive and dead, have different meanings in the supernatural

You’re taking about a purely natural observation. A person can be alive in body but have no supernatural grace (sanctifying grace) in their soul. Meaning they are dead to God spiritually.

How else would Jesus make the following statement and have it make any sense?

" 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

From Jn 6:53-58 RSVCE - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, - Bible Gateway

This life being spoken of here, is supernatural life coming from the Eucharist… Life beyond this life that we are talking about. Jesus is the one who established the sacraments and therefore, sanctifying grace for our salvation. Choices we make here on this side of eternity, have supernatural consequences in the next life. Our souls are immortal. They live forever. But life in heaven as we can see from Jesus words, requires sanctifying grace in the soul. Without that grace in one’s soul that soul lives forever in hell NOT heaven.

In this life, souls walking around in mortal sin are the walking dead.

Wannano:

Are there substantiated of cases of death that resulted from non-participation in the Eucharist?

Look again at Jesus words above.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

goout:

steve-b:

And as Jesus told us in advance, most people turn away,

Matthew 7:13-14 , Mt 7:13-14 RSVCE - The Narrow Gate - “Enter by the - Bible Gateway

Luke 13:23-28 , Lk 13:23-28 RSVCE - And some one said to him, “Lord, will - Bible Gateway

It’s a mistake to read this as a quantification of numbers, as if the passage is a notation of the “rolls of heaven” in an exclusionary sense. It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture.

Read the whole of Matthew 7 and revisit the meaning of this passage in that light. And reflect on the whole of the Gospel and especially the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. The narrow gate takes it’s fullest meaning in that light.

If you start by reading the whole chapter Mt 7, you should be troubled by the passage. We should all be awakened to our spiritual obesity. A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way. To the degree we rely on our own spiritual virtuosity, we are unable to be united with Him.

The Gospel is good news for every human being. The Gospel proposes life for everyone, and that is the light the Gospel should be read within.

I gave Matthew AND LUKE.

Think of the question being asked to Jesus in Luke, is it really true Jesus, that only a few are saved? After all, It WAS a direct question to Jesus on this very subject. And Jesus answered directly.

Did Jesus
. say NO? of course NOT? Nope!
. did he correct the questioner in any way? Nope!
. could Jesus have clarified the issue had the questioner’s question been wrong? Yes
. Did Jesus correct the questioner? Nope. He validated the question and even doubled down on the answer
. if only a few are saved, what does that say about everybody else?

Now people on the left, liberals, their heads explode on this.

Read the whole passage from Luke.
You are using the passage in a false exclusionary sense to those who are not in perfect communion with the Church.
You are also using it in a sort of reductionist quantitative sense.

In fact, the passage is easily readable as a rebuke to those who ask “Lord, will only a few be saved?”:
“Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”

If you read the passage as a whole, it is a fearsome warning to those who believe their salvation is attained by mere membership. The chapter is addressed to his own people.
(and none of this has anything whatsoever to do with liberal/conservative)

I read just fine. And you were the one who fired the first shot, when you accused me of “It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture”.

 

[mcq72]

We should all be awakened to our spiritual obesity. A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way.

Havent fully digested your post, but me thinks it is not spiritual obesity but carnal obesity that prohibits passage thru that narrow Door.

 

[goout]

I read just fine. And you were the one who fired the first shot, when you accused me of “It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture”.

It does.
I didn’t accuse you. I took note of the general thrust.
Scripture can’t be used as proof texts to make points.
Catholic scripture interpretation is always taken in the context of the whole.
Please read the whole chapters in context.

 

[mcq72]

I would suggest that our souls are certainly every bit as badly in need of the regular spiritual nourishment of Eucharist as the body of a diabetic is of regular phyiscal nourishment. So it is entirely plausible that missing a single one can have dire consequences.

almost like a self fulfilling prophecy…sometimes we love the disease because the “cure” feels so good, and that even according to our teachers or what we are taught.

 

[mcq72]

Scripture can’t be used as proof texts to make points.

So said the Pharisees to Jesus…well maybe they didn’t say that

 

[mcq72]

A spiritually obese person finds it difficult to fit through the door, eh? Christ himself is the way. To the degree we rely on our own spiritual virtuosity, we are unable to be united with Him.

Hi goot,

been pondering your words…what takes care of obesity is…death…to self…which is what we do at baptism (well symbolically for some), coming out alive in Christ, born again a new thin man, having gone thru the narrow gate…after that , anything unsanctified, of the old man/carnal, can make us fat again, and we can get “stuck” in the narrow remaining way…and yes trusting in our flesh, even righteous works we have done in faith, in the spirit, is problematic and counter intuitive to Calvary.

 

[phil19034]

I general, I think God calls us all to Evangelize, and some to a vocation in ministry.

However, humans outside the Church might see that as a call to ministry outside the Church, but in reality, perhaps that person is really being called to ministry in the Catholic Church - but human hardness of heart keeps them from realizing their full calling.

Just my thoughts

God Bless

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I read just fine. And you were the one who fired the first shot, when you accused me of “It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture”.

It does.
I didn’t accuse you. I took note of the general thrust.

OK, I’m taking note of your general thrust

goout:

Scripture can’t be used as proof texts to make points.

Says who?

goout:

Catholic scripture interpretation is always taken in the context of the whole.
Please read the whole chapters in context.

I consider context and I also see what the word means in the original language.

When you said
“It’s a mistake to read this as a quantification of numbers, as if the passage is a notation of the “rolls of heaven” in an exclusionary sense. It tends toward fundamentalist reading of scripture”.

The original language does refer to quantification, numbers, when talking about few and many with regards to saved vs the reprobate… Therefore it is also talking in an exclusionary sense. What do you think judgement day is all about If there is no separation, no exclusion of souls in the population during judgement? Why is there the need for judgement if there is not going to be exclusion, and separation? See Rev 20

Quotes from Saints http://saintsquotes.net/selection - fewness.html