Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[mcq72]

We are already participating in that feast during Eucharistic celebration. It is Communion with Heaven. But some (who participated) will be cut off because they profaned the Body and Blood of the Lord, yet did not repent and so have a clean garment for the Day of the final return of the Lord.

There is also the verse that states “we ARE seated in heavenly places”…as in now…

 

[rcwitness]

This passage?

Ephesians 2
even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

rcwitness:

What does this have to do with the OP???

Why not start a thread on OSAS???

I understand different issues come up because of discussion, but you are over doing it here. This thread is not concerned about OSAS.

Being separated from the Eucharist which is the topic of the thread, DOES get into salvation.

First of all, the question isnt about salvation, but God’s call.

It’s not either/or

rcwitness:

And second, those separated from His Eucharist “may” enter salvation, even a non Baptized person… there is a difference.

may ≠ will

The world may end tomorrow.

 

[rcwitness]

Ok, i thought you were trying to say “one who is separated from His Eucharist is still entering salvation”

But i dont think debating OSAS is approptiate in this thread. Please address what God calls us to, with support.

 

[steve-b]

Ok, i thought you were trying to say “one who is separated from His Eucharist is still entering salvation”

I would never say that

rcwitness:

But i dont think debating OSAS is approptiate in this thread. Please address what God calls us to, with support.

Re: the topic you began

"Does God call people to separate from Catholic Eucharist"

from the lips of God, the One who instituted this sacrament, in the One and Only Church He established, the Catholic Church, to our ears

Jn6:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54he who eats τρώγων http://bibleapps.com/greek/5176.htm my flesh σάρκα http://bibleapps.com/greek/4561.htm and drinks πίνων http://bibleapps.com/greek/4095.htm my blood αἷμα http://bibleapps.com/greek/129.htm has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

So

Eucharist and salvation are together. God does NOT separate them nor people from His Eucharist

since “life” in this context, = heaven, = salvation.

Then

Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist? No

One could ask

1. What part of what Jesus said, sounds like a suggestion? None of it
2. What part of what Jesus said, sounds like a command? All of it
3. What part of that command can one disobey and think it’s okay with God? None of it.

God does NOT call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist .

Today’s Mass reading. What comes from Jesus comes from the Father Jn5:17-30 RSVCE - But Jesus answered them, “My Father - Bible Gateway

 

[rcwitness]

This doesnt address “Catholic Eucharist”

Anyone can say that their Church holds the Lord’s Supper. They can say that God called them to participate in an Episcopalian Communion, or a Methodist Communion, or an LDS Communion.

Or an Evangelical might say they can hold the Lord’s Supper with a couple Christian friends.

As Catholics, are we bound to reject this notion? Many Catholics say no.

 

[steve-b]

This doesnt address “Catholic Eucharist”

What I wrote did address it

rcwitness:

Anyone can say that their Church holds the Lord’s Supper. They can say that God called them to participate in an Episcopalian Communion, or a Methodist Communion, or an LDS Communion. Or an Evangelical might say they can hold the Lord’s Supper with a couple Christian friends.

Saying is one thing. Proving it, they can’t do. they are all 16th century and beyond human inventions.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

This doesnt address “Catholic Eucharist”

What I wrote did address it

rcwitness:

Anyone can say that their Church holds the Lord’s Supper. They can say that God called them to participate in an Episcopalian Communion, or a Methodist Communion, or an LDS Communion. Or an Evangelical might say they can hold the Lord’s Supper with a couple Christian friends.

Saying is one thing. Proving it, they can’t do. they are all 16th century human inventions.

You cant show a Catholic why the Church is opposed to the claim that the Holy Spirit calls some men to Protestant Communions?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

rcwitness:

This doesnt address “Catholic Eucharist”

What I wrote did address it

rcwitness:

Anyone can say that their Church holds the Lord’s Supper. They can say that God called them to participate in an Episcopalian Communion, or a Methodist Communion, or an LDS Communion. Or an Evangelical might say they can hold the Lord’s Supper with a couple Christian friends.

Saying is one thing. Proving it, they can’t do. they are all 16th century human inventions.

You cant show a Catholic why the Church is opposed to the Holy Spirit calling some men to Protestant Communions?

Fasten you seat belt buckaroo.

Catholics are NOT to receive Protestant “communions” NONE of them.

Canon law: http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2015/12/17/when-can-catholics-receive-communion-noncath-service/

AND

I’ve already quoted this reference in this forum

From Lumen Gentium: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

from paragraphs 14 & 28

1. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. "

You tell me, why would the HS guide someone in THAT direction of “could NOT be saved”?

1. Christ, whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, (176) has through His apostles, made their successors, the bishops, partakers of His consecration and His mission.(62*) They have legitimately handed on to different individuals in the Church various degrees of participation in this ministry. Thus the divinely established ecclesiastical ministry is exercised on different levels by those who from antiquity have been called bishops, priests and deacons.(63*)

for space you can read the rest

AND

Jesus said this about the HS. He only passes on what He hears from Jesus. John 16:12-15 RSVCE - “I have yet many things to say to - Bible Gateway

THEREFORE

The HS can’t go against Jesus prayer, nor would Jesus tell the HS to teach against Jesus prayer. of perfect oneness John 17:20-23 RSVCE - “I do not pray for these only, but - Bible Gateway

That’s what I would tell a real Catholic. And also for one who would ask me, why be Catholic.

 

[jcrichton]

unfortunately liberty, in most peoples minds, is far more the focus, than obedience to faith. Thus Jesus says few are saved.

Exactly!

What is most perplexing is how many get caught up in this “few are saved.” They actually want everyone to be "saved’ as in the hollowood theme where none are responsible for their actions just “eat, drink, and be merry” for Jesus paid the price!

Re: The prodigal son, if he didn’t repent and return, as the Father said “this son of mine was dead”.

Re: the rich man, he obviously died as he lived. And in the next life he was screwed

…which is like life; we don’t know how many opportunities each of these men had to turn back to God… so Jesus’ warning, ‘you don’t know the day or the hour… so be ready!’ (paraphrased)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wow… not allowed tangents?

…have you ever had a live one on one conversation with anyone where tangents did not occurred?

Yes, tangents should not take over the main theme of the OP–but not even the “smart” robots were able to refrain from tangents when they were brought on line–sorry, sorry, sorry, mea, mea, culpa, culpa, culpa, culpa cubed!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mcq72]

for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. "

You tell me, why would the HS guide someone in THAT direction of “could NOT be saved”?

And yet why accept “other’s” baptisms ? Do we enter the CC thru baptism, all? Why not nip things in the bud, face the facts, the Catholic facts, and call others baptism invalid also? The reality of CC teaching is that all are doomed save by ignorance.

I read once all baptisms are valid due to Pope Stephen’s decree (3rdC ?) because baptism was not spirit inducing (regenerative?) but for remission of sins, as in right call but for wrong reason.

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe God calls believers to be preachers and teachers in churches separated from Holy Communion with the Bishop of Rome?

The CC does not consider Protestant ecclesial communities to be “churches”, but the Eastern Orthodox communions are considered valid Churches, with valid sacraments, so yes, God calls preachers, teachers, priests, deacons and bishops in the EO communion. The Holy Father called the EO the “other lung” of the Church. They do not consider our Eucharist valid, though, and are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

As far as Protestant communities (are these what you are referencing?) then yes, the HS does work through these communities with many gifts and graces, preaching and teaching among them.

Fasten you seat belt buckaroo.

Catholics are NOT to receive Protestant “communions” NONE of them.

I think you are assuming that this is about Catholics. These canon laws cannot be applied to those who have been born into and raised in Protestant communions.

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. "

You tell me, why would the HS guide someone in THAT direction of “could NOT be saved”?

You are making a huge assumption here. Most Protestants don’t qualify as “knowing” anything about the CC. The HS guides souls into grace, truth, and unity. All the gifts and graces of the HS found in Protestant ecclesial communities are calls to unity, but many do not “hear” the call, or do not understand it for what it is.

That’s what I would tell a real Catholic. And also for one who would ask me, why be Catholic.

Ok, but I think the OP was referring to persons in Protestant ecclesial communities. I do agree with you that the HS does not lead Catholics away from the fullness of Truth. Many of us have strayed away from it, discovered it in those Protestant ecclesial communities, and were able to return to the fullness of faith.

Most Catholics who have been drawn out of the One Faith were poorly catechized, or seeking there own desires, or emotionally motivated, or a combination of these.

 

[guanophore]

And yet why accept “other’s” baptisms ? Do we enter the CC thru baptism, all?

There is only one valid baptism, no matter who administers it.

Yes, there is only One Church, so all who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his One Body.

Why not nip things in the bud, face the facts, the Catholic facts, and call others baptism invalid also?

I think you lost me here. If the baptism is Trinitarian, and the intention was to bring one into relationship with Christ, how can it be invalid?

The reality of CC teaching is that all are doomed save by ignorance.

I think you have misunderstood the Catholic Teaching. We believe that salvation is only by Jesus, and there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.

I read once all baptisms are valid due to Pope Stephen’s decree (3rdC ?) because baptism was not spirit inducing (regenerative?) but for remission of sins, as in right call but for wrong reason.

No, I don’t think so. Pope St. Stpehen 1 fought against the teachings of the heretic Novatus. The issue over baptism was whether baptism by a heretic was valid (not whether it was regenerative. His position was embraced because Jesus is recognized as the Baptizer (not the person doing the baptism) and thus it has been held that even a non-believer (Pagan or Muslim) can perform a valid baptism.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...oc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

Honestly mcq72, how did you get such hostile ideas about Catholicism?

 

[mcq72]

There is only one valid baptism, no matter who administers it.

Yes, there is only One Church, so all who are baptized into Christ are baptized into his One Body.

Well I agree but does not fit with some CC teaching, as posted by steve. Then why call unlawful other sacraments ?. And is not the One Church Catholic ?

I think you lost me here. If the baptism is Trinitarian, and the intention was to bring one into relationship with Christ, how can it be invalid?

wish that is what baptism focus would be, but some say it is to put you in the only One True Church also. Why would God grace being placed in a false , unlawful therefore unsacramental church ?

I think you have misunderstood the Catholic Teaching. We believe that salvation is only by Jesus, and there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.

fine saying I agree with , but of course there are those catholic teachings that totally qualify such a statement, and any other church is dead on arrival, save by ignorance.

Honestly mcq72, how did you get such hostile ideas about Catholicism?

just reading steves post , and they are nothing new…understand others see it differently, and thank you if you do but…it is there for the taking (hardline approach…no salvation outside CC)…not trying to be hostile but facing facts of the teachings

 

[guanophore]

Well I agree but does not fit with some CC teaching, as posted by steve.

I have not seen anything posted by @steve_b that states otherwise.

Perhaps you can point out where some CC teaching is found that does not recognize Trinitarian baptism as valid?

And is not the One Church Catholic ?

Not all members of Christ are recognizable as Catholic in this life. I would add that not all those who identify as Catholic are in a state of grace as members of Christ.

wish that is what baptism focus would be, but some say it is to put you in the only One True Church also.

There is no separation between these. Baptism joins us to Christ in His death and resurrection, and in it we are all made members of His One Body, the Church.

Why would God grace being placed in a false , unlawful therefore unsacramental church ?

God’s grace has no boundaries, and He is the baptizer (not members of any one ecclesial community). The fact that persons administering the baptism do not understand the regenerational and sacramental nature of it changes nothing.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit accomplishes His work in spite of people, would you not agree?

 

[rcwitness]

Wow… not allowed tangents?

…have you ever had a live one on one conversation with anyone where tangents did not occurred?

Yes, tangents should not take over the main theme of the OP–but not even the “smart” robots were able to refrain from tangents when they were brought on line–sorry, sorry, sorry, mea, mea, culpa, culpa, culpa, culpa cubed!

Maran atha!

Angel

Its not a slight divergent with Steve. He piles long post after another that are derailing the thread
Most of us dont want to read them because they dont follow a proper discussion. They are cut n paste constructions far from a real conversation.

OSAS might have a brief place in a discussion like this thread, but not ongoing.

I let it go for many, many posts. This thread is not about OSAS. Its whether Catholics and Protestants truly believe God (Holy Spirit) calls men to be separate from the historical, Catholic, Eucharist Supper!

I believe that publicly preaching the Gospel (a condensed message about Jesus coming into the world, so that the world might be saved from sin) is one thing, but that claiming that God calls some to a Eucharistic Communion separated from the Catholic Mass, is a deception. How God will judge those is not for me to know, let alone tell anyone.

 

[rcwitness]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” 273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” 274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” 276

 

[Wannano]

jcrichton:

Wow… not allowed tangents?

…have you ever had a live one on one conversation with anyone where tangents did not occurred?

Yes, tangents should not take over the main theme of the OP–but not even the “smart” robots were able to refrain from tangents when they were brought on line–sorry, sorry, sorry, mea, mea, culpa, culpa, culpa, culpa cubed!

Maran atha!

Angel

Its not a slight divergent with Steve. He piles long post after another that are derailing the thread
Most of us dont want to read them because they dont follow a proper discussion. They are cut n paste constructions far from a real conversation.

OSAS might have a brief place in a discussion like this thread, but not ongoing.

I let it go for many, many posts. This thread is not about OSAS. Its whether Catholics and Protestants truly believe God (Holy Spirit) calls men to be separate from the historical, Catholic, Eucharist Supper!

I believe that publicly preaching the Gospel (a condensed message about Jesus coming into the world, so that the world might be saved from sin) is one thing, but that claiming that God calls some to a Eucharistic Communion separated from the Catholic Mass, is a deception. How God will judge those is not for me to know, let alone tell anyone.

No rc, it is not a deception.

 

[Wannano]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” 273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” 274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, 275 and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” 276

If it is a deception that God calls people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist then it follows that the statement above is a deception. If the Holy Spirit uses these Churches as a means of salvation then it is accomplished without the Catholic Eucharist if they are separate from it.