Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[rcwitness]

When He says where two or three are gathered, i am there. Would He be outside the bread and wine?

I know He said that in a different context… but the principle is there no?

And if we receive the Teaching of God in this Communion, why do different Communions Teach different things?

 

[Wannano]

When He says where two or three are gathered, i am there. Would He be outside the bread and wine?

I know He said that in a different context… but the principle is there no?

And if we receive the Teaching of God in this Communion, why do different Communions Teach different things?

Really not sure I am following your thoughts about when two or three gather and the principle is there. I kinda get lost.

We seem to agree that the Bread of Heaven in John 6 is the teaching of God. I don’t understand how the teaching of God which requires hearing, studying, believing, faith is received by partaking of Communion.

 

[guanophore]

more so, that He is God and hence the Word that Became Incarnate.

Yes, but @susanlo wants the miracle of transubstantiation to be visible like other miracles in Scripture. It seems like a St. Thomas doubter kind of thing “unless I see…I will not believe”. It was pointed out by @rcwitness that they could not look at Jesus and “see” that He was God in the flesh, so did not believe it.

Evangelicals… What are “tangible expressions of the Gospel”??

Being the hands and feet of Christ to the world. It is based on true love and service to mankind. I am part of the Canadian Foodgrains Bank organization.

I understand you are motivated to do this out of your faith, but it seems like an atheist or other could do the same for different reasons.

But he told us that as often as we partake of the bread and wine to do it in remembrance of Him and that as often we do it we proclaim (make known) the Lord’s death until He returns.

Actually He did not say that. He said as often as you “do this” (this is my Body, This is my Blood).

 

[Wannano]

Evangelicals… What are “tangible expressions of the Gospel”??

Being the hands and feet of Christ to the world. It is based on true love and service to mankind. I am part of the Canadian Foodgrains Bank organization.

I understand you are motivated to do this out of your faith, but it seems like an atheist or other could do the same for different reasons.

---

I see your point, just like an atheist or other could volunteer at a Catholic soup kitchen. To me it does not negate that Christians doing it are giving tangible expression to their faith.

 

[guanophore]

The answer that keeps coming to me is that He meant it to be symbolic.

Yes, He did, but not only symbolic in the modern sense of the word. It is an enacted ritual - the anamnesis. It is like the Passover meal, where a real lamb is slain and eaten (not a symbolic lamb). Yes, the ritual “symbolizes” the Exodus, and prefigures the Eucharist, but it embodies that which it symbolizes.

If receiving Jesus and accepting God’s own sacrifice for our forgiveness are represented in the bread and wine why is Transubstantiation necessary?

Jesus felt it was necessary. Honestly, like a lot of other Divine Mysteries, I do not understand. I accept it because that is what He taught. In some way these elements replace the actual lamb that was eaten at the Passover.

Like you say the Bread from Heaven is His teaching, and we are to consume it. John 6.

Jesus uses food that perishes to symbolize His eternal sacrifice because it is a call to Remembrance.

Yes, the Eucharist is not separated from His teaching. This is why the ancients only admitted those who had been baptized. The uninitiated were shown the door at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Only those who embraced His Teaching were permitted. This is why communion is closed to this day.

The food of the Eucharist does not perish. All of it is consumed, or it is reserved carefully until it is consumed. It is like the Passover lamb that is fully eaten - nothing left.

We seem to agree that the Bread of Heaven in John 6 is the teaching of God.

It is both, as He is not separated from His teaching. He tells the Jews “I am the manna that comes down from heaven”, physically, bodily, in a form to be eaten.

. I don’t understand how the teaching of God which requires hearing, studying, believing, faith is received by partaking of Communion.

This makes sense because, since the Reformers separated all these things from the Sacraments, it would be difficult to understand how they are really inseparable. Once a thread of the seamless garment of the One Faith begins to be torn out, more threads are lost, until part of the garment is lost entirely.

 

[rcwitness]

Good points Guano.

I think there can be a genuineness in non-Catholic Christians. But in the end, there is a common love that can be known in all Catholic Teachings. And its a challenge to uphold that love and see some Catholics abuse it. Because it means carrying a cross for those who remain close to Jesus and contend with the abusers around His Eucharist!

So its easier to separate than suffer. There is no more “exodus” away fro His Eucharist. That is the body and blood we are all called to gather under. Make our stake and fight the good fight. I lose many battles. Its hard when alot of Catholics are shallow, or hypocrites. But until we endure without becoming like them, we cannot think we are above it all.

 

[Wannano]

Good points Guano.

I think there can be a genuineness in non-Catholic Christians. But in the end, there is a common love that can be known in all Catholic Teachings. And its a challenge to uphold that love and see some Catholics abuse it. Because it means carrying a cross for those who remain close to Jesus and contend with the abusers around His Eucharist!

So its easier to separate than suffer. There is no more “exodus” away fro His Eucharist. That is the body and blood we are all called to gather under. Make our stake and fight the good fight. I lose many battles. Its hard when alot of Catholics are shallow, or hypocrites. But until we endure without becoming like them, we cannot think we are above it all.

I know this was written to Guano…so maybe you guys have a secret code. I guess I am saying I don’t understand much of what you meant here.

 

[rcwitness]

It means His Eucharist was not intended to be divided, but to gather together! And that understanding the love of Christ whithin Catholic Teaching is necessary to understanding each Teaching. And that we subject ourselves to all sorts of potential trials when we gather to His body and blood. Not because of Him, but because His enemy.

Where there is salvation, the devil waits like a lion for opportune times. And He uses each of our weaknesses.

Fortunately, we can overcome in our weakness because He is strong.

 

[Wannano]

It means His Eucharist was not intended to be divided, but to gather together! And that understanding the love of Christ whithin Catholic Teaching is necessary to understanding each Teaching. And that we subject ourselves to all sorts of potential trials when we gather to His body and blood. Not because of Him, but because His enemy.

Where there is salvation, the devil waits like a lion for opportune times. And He uses each of our weaknesses.

Fortunately, we can overcome in our weakness because He is strong.

Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

The answer that keeps coming to me is that He meant it to be symbolic.

Yes, He did, but not only symbolic in the modern sense of the word. It is an enacted ritual - the anamnesis. It is like the Passover meal, where a real lamb is slain and eaten (not a symbolic lamb). Yes, the ritual “symbolizes” the Exodus, and prefigures the Eucharist, but it embodies that which it symbolizes.

If receiving Jesus and accepting God’s own sacrifice for our forgiveness are represented in the bread and wine why is Transubstantiation necessary?

Jesus felt it was necessary. Honestly, like a lot of other Divine Mysteries, I do not understand. I accept it because that is what He taught. In some way these elements replace the actual lamb that was eaten at the Passover.

Like you say the Bread from Heaven is His teaching, and we are to consume it. John 6.

Jesus uses food that perishes to symbolize His eternal sacrifice because it is a call to Remembrance.

Yes, the Eucharist is not separated from His teaching. This is why the ancients only admitted those who had been baptized. The uninitiated were shown the door at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Only those who embraced His Teaching were permitted. This is why communion is closed to this day.

The food of the Eucharist does not perish. All of it is consumed, or it is reserved carefully until it is consumed. It is like the Passover lamb that is fully eaten - nothing left.

We seem to agree that the Bread of Heaven in John 6 is the teaching of God.

It is both, as He is not separated from His teaching. He tells the Jews “I am the manna that comes down from heaven”, physically, bodily, in a form to be eaten.

. I don’t understand how the teaching of God which requires hearing, studying, believing, faith is received by partaking of Communion.

This makes sense because, since the Reformers separated all these things from the Sacraments, it would be difficult to understand how they are really inseparable. Once a thread of the seamless garment of the One Faith begins to be torn out, more threads are lost, until part of the garment is lost entirely.

I have confidence that God is in control. Maybe we see the bottom side of the weaving and He sees the top.

 

[rcwitness]

I have confidence that God is in control. Maybe we see the bottom side of the weaving and He sees the top.

God is in control of the outcome for sure. Yet, is He in control of my life when i give in to temptations to sin? Am i giving Him control when I sin?

Is He in control of a woman divorcing her husband when he wants to reconcile with God and her?

Is He in control of a man who neglects to go to Mass while his wife brings the children each week?

Which also leads to my OP question: Is He in control of men who establish a communion group who separate from the established community?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I have confidence that God is in control. Maybe we see the bottom side of the weaving and He sees the top.

God is in control of the outcome for sure. Yet, is He in control of my life when i give in to temptations to sin? Am i giving Him control when I sin?

Is He in control of a woman divorcing her husband when he wants to reconcile with God and her?

Is He in control of a man who neglects to go to Mass while his wife brings the children each week?

Which also leads to my OP question: Is He in control of men who establish a communion group who separate from the established community?

Thanks rc for your post. I hear you loud and clear and have often asked those same questions. Isn’t the fact that you stop to ask those questions an indicator that you really do believe He is in control even when you are out of control. Adam and Eve hid from God after sinning, isn’t that an indicator that ultimately they knew He was in control? I ask God in the morning to guide and direct my path for today and to help me yield to his control. Yet, I often grab my own steering wheel and take control of a moment. I raised three sons and one daughter and looking back at the times when they disobeyed me, did I lose control in those times? In a sense yes, but ultimately as the father I was still always in control of the whole situation. My reaction in those times was an indicator of whether I was in control or not. God does not love you or me less when we sin, an indicator to me that He is in total control.

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

 

[rcwitness]

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

What is that to you?

 

[rcwitness]

Its certainly a good work to rightly admonish a leader!

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

What is that to you?

Was that asked with a fist in my face?

 

[Agathon]

He asked a simple question.

 

[Wannano]

He asked a simple question.

He asked a simple question that is often asked in a daring or confrontational manner. How do you interpret the tone when your are not hearing how it is said?

I am only asking for clarification.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Wannano:

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

What is that to you?

Was that asked with a fist in my face?

No. You are my friend.

It meant, what difference is it to your service to God, if a leader is not giving Jesus control in something of his life?

If you are able, admonish the brother!

No one gives Jesus absolute control in all things. We are each members who fail sometimes.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

rcwitness:

Wannano:

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

What is that to you?

Was that asked with a fist in my face?

No. You are my friend.

It meant, what difference is it to your service to God, if a leader is not giving Jesus control in something of his life?

If you are able, admonish the brother!

No one gives Jesus absolute control in all things. We are each members who fail sometimes.

Just checking!

Respectfully, I feel you are changing the topic. You asked: “Is God in control of men who establish a communion group who separate from the established communion?”

I suggested your answer lies within my question which was: “Is God in control of the men who control the established communion?”

My only certain answer for both questions is “maybe.”

 

[rcwitness]

My friend, you initiated the conversation with “i have confidence God is in control.”

That’s cool. Hopefully all Christian believe this. But in control of what? Isnt that a fair question?

I am not Catholic because I believe Catholic leaders are in control of everything. Or that they even give God control of everything and every decision.

But God has certain control of the Church on account of His Body and Blood being given to her. His Teaching is “hidden” in what we call the Deposit of Faith. That deposit does not exist in Scripture alone, but also in Sacred Tradition and Magisterium Teaching.

We have Apostolic Succession through an unbroken Laying on Hands leadership.

So we serve within our lawful leaders not for the sake of the leaders, but for Christ’s sake. And those who are wise and humble can and should admonish any brother who is doing wrong.

We arent called to leave His Eucharist, which is offered by those in Communion with the Bishops. Though times may be awful, and abuses flourish, we are called to suffer with Him. His body and blood is Who we suffer with and gain strength from.