Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[Wannano]

My friend, you initiated the conversation with “i have confidence God is in control.”

That’s cool. Hopefully all Christian believe this. But in control of what? Isnt that a fair question?

I am not Catholic because I believe Catholic leaders are in control of everything. Or that they even give God control of everything and every decision.

But God has certain control of the Church on account of His Body and Blood being given to her. His Teaching is “hidden” in what we call the Deposit of Faith. That deposit does not exist in Scripture alone, but also in Sacred Tradition and Magisterium Teaching. O

We have Apostolic Succession through an unbroken Laying on Hands leadership.

So we serve within our lawful leaders not for the sake of the leaders, but for Christ’s sake. And those who are wise and humble can and should admonish any brother who is doing wrong.

We arent called to leave His Eucharist, which is offered by those in Communion with the Bishops. Though times may be awful, and abuses flourish, we are called to suffer with Him. His body and blood is Who we suffer with and gain strength from.

I have confidence that God is in control of the big picture of the world, the Church and all else that I cannot understand. Someday it will all be made clear. Maybe someday I will even understand myself.

 

[rcwitness]

I have confidence that God is in control of the big picture of the world, the Church and all else that I cannot understand. Someday it will all be made clear. Maybe someday I will even understand myself.

How is God in control of the Church? Did He control the divisions of denominations? How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I have confidence that God is in control of the big picture of the world, the Church and all else that I cannot understand. Someday it will all be made clear. Maybe someday I will even understand myself.

How is God in control of the Church? Did He control the divisions of denominations? How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for?

I do not have the mind of God…His ways are not man’s ways, who can explain how He is in control? Either He is or He isn’t. I am choosing to believe He is.

How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for? I am quite sure He never had force and coercion in mind.

 

[guanophore]

How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for?

I think this happens through obedience to the Truth.

What has happened is that people have confused their own perceptions of “Truth” with what God has revealed as “Truth”.

 

[rcwitness]

I do not have the mind of God…His ways are not man’s ways, who can explain how He is in control? Either He is or He isn’t. I am choosing to believe He is.

1 Corinthians
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment… God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who possess the Spirit.c]"… The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ

How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for? I am quite sure He never had force and coercion in mind.

I agree. I believe you have accepted the Spirit of God. He can open your mind, and my mind… if we are willing. But the flesh is weak, and we constantly contend with this battle. Some things we receive and others we reject. And this is the same thing as giving Him control in our mind, heart and lives, or denying His control in our mind, heart and lives.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, but @susanlo wants the miracle of transubstantiation to be visible like other miracles in Scripture. It seems like a St. Thomas doubter kind of thing “unless I see…I will not believe”. It was pointed out by @rcwitness that they could not look at Jesus and “see” that He was God in the flesh, so did not believe it.

Would this also not be required of Pentecost? …tongues of fire, speaking in multiple languages (or being heard in multiple languages), thunderous-earth shattering sounds, mass conversions, and don’t forget coming together as one unit–nor can we leave out the persecution by the Jews and Romans…

I understand you are motivated to do this out of your faith, but it seems like an atheist or other could do the same for different reasons.

Exactly! It goes back to the reason why “Christians” do things–not out of the need to do good things or because it feels good to help others but in obedience to Christ (whatsoever you do onto this little ones, you do for/to Me!–paraphrased).

Maran atha!

Angel

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

we cannot think we are above it all.

Yet, I think that you’ve hit the nail on it’s head; though it is not about being above it all. It is about obedience: Do this, this; this is My Body; this is My Blood!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The Secret Code is Obedience to Christ–not man’s “knowledge.”

St. Paul actually made this connection when he exhorts:

4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power. (1 Corinthians 2)

The problem is that people continue to rely on man’s knowledge while being dismissive of God’s Power.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

In relation to your final and ultimate question, the answer lies within another question. That question being: Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

Yet, God is not in control.

We must come to God freely and willingly; we must submit our wills to His. It is the reason why Jesus allowed the mass exodus to take place. He did not change His Vocabulary; instead He insisted even with the Twelve: 'are you going to Leave Me too? (rhetorical; not demanding a reply but a soul-searching!)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

How did He expect us to keep the unity He prayed to the Father for? I am quite sure He never had force and coercion in mind.

Exactly!

He wants total control; yet, he allows man to submit his will to His.

The problem with man, as you’ve pointed out with Adam, is that he will fail and run/hide from God rather than capitulate and seek God.

The Unity of the Body is not for man to determine (multiple bodies of politically correctness or “union of the mind” bodies). ‘Be one in Me as I AM One with the Father.’

St. Paul alluded to this Unity when he stated that we (the Church) is One Faith, One Baptism, One Gospel, One Body, One Spirit, One Lord, One God.

Division is not about Oneness but about individuality!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[SnoopSword]

Re: the OP.

-God wills that all people partake in Catholic Eucharist.

1 Tim 2:3-4 God…who WILL that all men be saved…

John 6:54,56 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 56 …[he] lives in me, and I IN HIM

-As the Athanasian Creed states, Jesus flesh is made of the substance of Mary.

“Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God…of the substance of the Father…[and] his Mother…”

-Therefore those who DO the WILL of the Father partake in the Catholic Eucharist (Firstly Baptism is required first as it makes us brothers and sisters in Christ which is fully by Gods Grace, but eventually we must ‘uphold it’ by [worthily] eating the flesh and blood aka State of Grace):

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his SEED remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God -(describes the upholding of Baptismal grace and [worthily] partaking in Eucharist)

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall DO the WILL of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. -(describes the pre-requisite of Baptism; a pure Grace making children of God; brothers and sisters in Christ. Then our DOING of God’s WILL; our [worthily] partaking of his Flesh and Blood; which is ‘comprised’ of the substance his Mother. Thusly, we are his brother, sister, and mother when we are in Christ and He in us)

-As far as being in subjection to the Roman Pontiff and the True Church:

Some say the NT Epistles PREDATE the Gospel Accounts and Acts. The NT Epistles begin by a declarative statement that paves the way for the rest of the Epistles:

Romans 1:7 “To ALL who be IN Rome”

All the NT Churches were part of Rome (even today, even if they dont realize it). Those Churches heard the Gospel and believed - but only under the ore-requisite it was by the ‘mouth of Peter’ as God himself has decreed this (Peter says this in Acts when he speaks at the council and no one objects).

God also gave him specifically the keys to heaven. Yes. There is only one ‘person’ on earth that were given these keys.

As prophesied, this Rock has been a great stumbling block to many through the course of history. Discussing this issue in particular is complex because it deals with deep spiritual issues; basic common sense ‘goes missing’.

 

[guanophore]

Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

Only in so much as they submit to His will. But this is where our different definitions of Church collide. Although Catholics accept that the Church incudes the “body of believers on earth”, this is not the only essential part of the definition. He is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These divine elements are what make her infallible, not the men who may not submit to her. He does not “control” those in leadership, he preserves His Teaching infallibly where He placed it in the Church.

Isaiah 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God placed His Word in the Church to get us all to heaven. No amount of human fallibility can thwart His purpose.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

Is He in control of the men who control the established community?

Only in so much as they submit to His will. But this is where our different definitions of Church collide. Although Catholics accept that the Church incudes the “body of believers on earth”, this is not the only essential part of the definition. He is her Head, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. These divine elements are what make her infallible, not the men who may not submit to her. He does not “control” those in leadership, he preserves His Teaching infallibly where He placed it in the Church.

Isaiah 55:11
11 so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth;
it shall not return to me empty,
but it shall accomplish that which I purpose,
and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God placed His Word in the Church to get us all to heaven. No amount of human fallibility can thwart His purpose.

So is God also in control of those Communions who are separate from the established Community? I think I am right in saying that the CC teaches that all who are not in Communion with Rome receive their ability to be a means of salvation through the CC.

 

[guanophore]

So is God also in control of those Communions who are separate from the established Community?

I Guess I am not understanding your question right. You keep asking “is
God in control” and we keep responding that God does not control. It seems to me that you are equating the gift of infallibility with “control” somehow, as if free will is abdicated?

I think I am right in saying that the CC teaches that all who are not in Communion with Rome receive their ability to be a means of salvation through the CC.

There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved, therefore, all who are saved are saved in Him. He founded only One Church, and has only One Body, and therefore all who are members of Him are also members of His One Body.

I am not sure how this relates to infallibility? Maybe it does not, but neither does God "control"persons into salvation.

 

[rcwitness]

I Guess I am not understanding your question right. You keep asking “is God in control” and we keep responding that God does not control. It seems to me that you are equating the gift of infallibility with “control” somehow, as if free will is abdicated?

Right! God is in control on account of being Lord of life and of all flesh. But we are able to give personal control to Him or take it away from Him through lack of self control.

When we say the Church is given the power of Infallibility, this means that God Has Sovereignty which is “visible” and able to be declared and heard by the mouth of the Church.

The canon of Scripture is an example of this sovereign infallibility. God has control of what is ultimately declared through the Church. Man is able to submit to what is declared, or reject God’s control. By rejecting God’s control, man does not render God’s control null, but seoarates his own life from the control of God.

So God does not control man, but allows man to give God control of his choices.

 

[rcwitness]

Does the Church have a mouth?

We believe so. Though its frustrating when her mouth is silent, or speaks ambiguously. So steadfastness and patience becomes necessary. Even suffering becomes necessary!

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

So is God also in control of those Communions who are separate from the established Community?

I Guess I am not understanding your question right. You keep asking “is
God in control” and we keep responding that God does not control. It seems to me that you are equating the gift of infallibility with “control” somehow, as if free will is abdicated?

I think I am right in saying that the CC teaches that all who are not in Communion with Rome receive their ability to be a means of salvation through the CC.

There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved, therefore, all who are saved are saved in Him. He founded only One Church, and has only One Body, and therefore all who are members of Him are also members of His One Body.

I am not sure how this relates to infallibility? Maybe it does not, but neither does God "control"persons into salvation.

I am sorry I have caused so much confusion and frustration. What is in the back of my mind in discussing all this is trying to hear an answer to the op’s initial question in the title. DOES GOD CALL PEOPLE TO BE SEPARATE FROM THE CATHOLIC EUCHARIST? It seems like a yes or no question but backing up either answer is complicated. The question was stimulated by a Catholic poster stating that Rev. Billy Graham was not called to be a Catholic.

 

[Wannano]

Does the Church have a mouth?

We believe so. Though its frustrating when her mouth is silent, or speaks ambiguously. So steadfastness and patience becomes necessary. Even suffering becomes necessary!

We are all parts of the same Body, some appear more important than the other. One part should not be saying that another part is not needed. The lowly stinky toes are actually the part that gives balance to the whole body.

 

[guanophore]

The lowly stinky toes are actually the part that gives balance to the whole body.

Indeed, but it is not appropriate for those toes to cut themselves off from the rest of the Body and run off into their own self perceived “balance”.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

The lowly stinky toes are actually the part that gives balance to the whole body.

Indeed, but it is not appropriate for those toes to cut themselves off from the rest of the Body and run off into their own self perceived “balance”.

I agree, and neither should the head tell the toes they aren’t needed.