Does God Cut Slack?

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your insights. As some of you who have followed my posts know, I am having a really difficult time these past few years with my so-called faith. As far as God’s “love” is concerned, I’m just not feeling it.

I sincerely think that God has my number; He has singled me out and is guiding my life such that it’s one disappointment after another. I haven’t been happy in a long time. The events of my life have made it so.

“With God all things are possible” and “Ask and you shall receive”. For me, at least, God seems to have reneged on His promise.

I wonder if what God is doing is not reneging on His promise, but rather trying to get you to draw closer to Him.

Have you read any of the great Mystic Saints like John of the Cross or Teresa of Avila or Therese of Lisieux? In every case these wonderful saints struggled with trouble, doubt, aridity of prayer, a feeling that God had abandoned them - that He was no where near to them…
Yet in these very things is seen opportunity to grow in holiness. To draw nearer to God by seeking after him.

Think of it like this. We are in a dark place and God comes with a light. We are happy to see Him and His light gives us comfort. But God wishes to bring us out of the dark and into a greater light. We - on the other had are reluctant to go. Not that we don’t want the light, but that we are so familiar with the dark.
God knows that he must lead us, but we must be willing to follow. So - after God gives us refreshment and training, He moves away taking His light with Him and invites us to follow. Now we are in the dark again…but not quite for some of His light is in us, if we guard it, AND we have a yearning for the light that is God Himself.
So now the question is…Do we sit and wait - and curse the darkness because God will not come back to us where are???
Or do we get up, and using what we’ve learned, move off after God. Seeking Him so that we might be ever closer to Him and to that ultimate light that is Heaven.

You might find the book in my signature to be of great help in understanding this more fully. (not my book so I get nothing from promoting it)

Peace
James

 

[Luvtosew]

Thank you all for your insights. As some of you who have followed my posts know, I am having a really difficult time these past few years with my so-called faith. As far as God’s “love” is concerned, I’m just not feeling it.

I sincerely think that God has my number; He has singled me out and is guiding my life such that it’s one disappointment after another. I haven’t been happy in a long time. The events of my life have made it so.

“With God all things are possible” and “Ask and you shall receive”. For me, at least, God seems to have reneged on His promise.

I wonder is it the Catholic faith or God himself you have a problem with?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

I wonder is it the Catholic faith or God himself you have a problem with?

A little of both, but for different reasons.

 

[kdub432]

I think that the mercy and judgement of God is beyond a human’s ability to grasp. The parable of the workers who work for various durations in the day, yet they all get the same wage has flummoxed me a few times. That being said, you should strive to be holy and without sin, and to be reconciled with God as best as possible in life. We have to have the attitude of a penitent sinner, and implore God for mercy!

 

[Lost_Sheep]

I think that the mercy and judgement of God is beyond a human’s ability to grasp. The parable of the workers who work for various durations in the day, yet they all get the same wage has flummoxed me a few times. That being said, you should strive to be holy and without sin, and to be reconciled with God as best as possible in life. We have to have the attitude of a penitent sinner, and implore God for mercy!

Well said. Thanks.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Lost Sheep,

I hope you don’t have the idea that God will simply excuse unrepented mortal sin.

He doesn’t.

BTW, you never responded to my post (#30).

 

[Lost_Sheep]

BTW, you never responded to my post (#30).

Sorry. Here ya go…

Well, if that’s the case, what happens to a person who has lived an evil life but then truly repents and lives his last few years in faith, in prayer, and in doing good? Let’s suppose he even dies a martyr’s death. Does God say to him, “Well, you’ve been an evil person over all; to Hell with you”?

If you want your system to be fair, that would have to be the case.

I never claimed/assumed/suggested that life is/was/should be fair. In fact I will readily admit that it isn’t. Or as Grandaddy used to say, “Look up ‘life’ in the dictionary and see if the word ‘fair’ appears anywhere in the definition.”

It isn’t a matter of our deeds being weighed on scales and you’re heavier on the good side than the bad side. It’s about *what kind of person you are when you leave this world. *If, at that point, you have rejected God and and continue to reject Him by your refusal to repent, you have chosen Hell, for that’s what Hell is: rejection of God.

My worry is that when my time comes, I will not have lived a life that is satisfactory to get to Heaven or even Purgatory. My concern is that if I am not in a perfect state of grace at the exact moment of my death, I’ll be on the fast track to the Hot Place.

I still don’t get why accepting or rejecting God is an all-or-nothing proposal. One sin - even a mortal sin (such as a sin for the flesh, for example) - should not suggest that a person has all-out rejected God. I was a bad kid and even though I disobeyed my parent’s rules sometimes did not mean I totally rejected them.

If I were to say “Scr3w You, God. I renounce you and everything about you.” - now THAT is a rejection of God.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Sorry. Here ya go…

I never claimed/assumed/suggested that life is/was/should be fair. In fact I will readily admit that it isn’t. Or as Grandaddy used to say, “Look up ‘life’ in the dictionary and see if the word ‘fair’ appears anywhere in the definition.”

What does this prove? Are you saying God should be unfair? God cannot be anything less than perfectly just or He wouldn’t be God.

My worry is that when my time comes, I will not have lived a life that is satisfactory to get to Heaven or even Purgatory. My concern is that if I am not in a perfect state of grace at the exact moment of my death, I’ll be on the fast track to the Hot Place.

You do have to be in a perfect state of grace to enter Heaven. After all, Heaven is pure. What happens if you introduce an impurity (sin) into a purity? Your purity would no longer be pure.

However, you seem to think one must be perfect at the moment of death to get to Heaven at all. That is not the case. If it were, only an extremely few would go to Heaven. You seem to be overlooking Purgatory where the just souls can be made perfect.

I still don’t get why accepting or rejecting God is an all-or-nothing proposal.

By the law of non-contradiction, one cannot both accept and reject God at the same time.

One sin - even a mortal sin (such as a sin for the flesh, for example) - should not suggest that a person has all-out rejected God. I was a bad kid and even though I disobeyed my parent’s rules sometimes did not mean I totally rejected them.

Once again, I think you do not understand mortal sin. Three conditions exist, and all must be present for a sin to be mortal. The matter must be grave, one must know it is grave, and one must consent totally of one’s own free will. In other words, it is a complete and total rejection of God (grave matter), one knows it is a complete and total rejection of God, and one chooses it anyway. All mortal sin is rejection of God, but not all grave sins are mortal.

If I were to say “Scr3w You, God. I renounce you and everything about you.” - now THAT is a rejection of God.

It certainly would be, but that is not the only mortal sin out there.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

What does this prove? Are you saying God should be unfair? God cannot be anything less than perfectly just or He wouldn’t be God.

No, I’m not saying that. In our human view of the world, “fairness” is generally regarded as a good thing. But think outside the box for a moment. Suppose God exercises His judgement and does something that we do not think is “fair”. It would still be perfectly just because He did it. After all, as you said, He is God and that makes it just.

 

[Kay_Cee]

No, I’m not saying that. In our human view of the world, “fairness” is generally regarded as a good thing. But think outside the box for a moment. Suppose God exercises His judgement and does something that we do not think is “fair”. It would still be perfectly just because He did it. After all, as you said, He is God and that makes it just.

God condeming a soul which loves Him, which actively seeks Him, which repents all sin, would not be just. Rewarding a soul for sin would not be just, regardless of who does it.

God cannot go against His nature. Even God cannot be what He is not. He cannot be unjust, so expecting Him to look the other way when there is unrepented mortal sin is not going to happen.

But you seem to want Him to reward with Heaven even those who have unrepented mortal sin, so long as they’ve been good otherwise. That would be like spitting in God’s face while at the same time telling Him you love Him. Rejection of God is rejection of God. It can’t be anything else. And if one dies in a state of mortal sin (that is, rejection of God), that person damns himself of his own free choice, for he has chosen to spend eternity without God.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No, I’m not saying that. In our human view of the world, “fairness” is generally regarded as a good thing. But think outside the box for a moment. Suppose God exercises His judgement and does something that we do not think is “fair”. It would still be perfectly just because He did it. After all, as you said, He is God and that makes it just.

By “we” are you referring to yourself or to the Church? God’s truth is taught to us through His Church. Certainly God would not lie to us! It is clear from Church teaching that one who dies in a state of unrepented mortal sin goes to hell. A mortal sin is, in itself, a total rejection of God. It is spitting in God’s face. It is telling God “You say this is a grave sin. I know that you say this. But I’m going to do it anyway.” How can that be looked upon as anything other than a total rejection of God?

We choose damnation. We choose where we want to go. God will allow us to reject Him.

 

[tvdxer]

In a strictly by-the-book sense, if a person dies in the state of mortal sin, he/she goes to Hell.

But in one’s final judgement, might God assess a person’s overall life and perhaps exercise some discretion? Could He say “Well, you committed one or two moral sins in your life that you never received absolution for, but all-in-all you were basically a good person so I’ll send you to Purgatory instead.”

After all, God has the final say-so. Might He possibly “commute your sentence?”

The Church, as far as I know, does not condemn the opinion that God might appear to a person at the hour of their death and “extraordinarily” absolve them. Obviously, though, one should not assume this happens.

 

[JRKH]

The Church, as far as I know, does not condemn the opinion that God might appear to a person at the hour of their death and “extraordinarily” absolve them. Obviously, though, one should not assume this happens.

Indeed. The Church tries to leave these matters up to God and not get too dogmatic in trying to define them.

One of the things that I found very helpful in my journey was a description recorded in the Dialogues of St Catherine of Sienna - God describes the moment of death and judgement like this:
"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.

"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.

"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

Dialogue of St Catherine of Sienna, Section 27
What I find wonderful about this description, and the other writing that supports it, is how it seems to express the very real context of how each and every thought, action, and belief of our lives is a building toward either heaven or hell. That when the end comes, we will reach out and posses that which we have built our lives on…Love or Hate…Good or evil…God or “Not God”.

Peace
James

 

[thistle]

The Church, as far as I know, does not condemn the opinion that God might appear to a person at the hour of their death and “extraordinarily” absolve them. Obviously, though, one should not assume this happens.

Let’s not go looking for get out of jail free cards.
The Church teaching is very clear. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go to Hell. You have until your dying breath to repent. If you do not repent you condemn yourself. There is no Church teaching that God might absolve you before you die even if you do not repent.

 

[tvdxer]

Let’s not go looking for get out of jail free cards.
The Church teaching is very clear. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go to Hell. You have until your dying breath to repent. If you do not repent you condemn yourself. There is no Church teaching that God might absolve you before you die even if you do not repent.

Yes, but neither does the Church condemn the proposition. I remember reading of a saint (John Vianney, maybe? I know, uncharacteristic of him) reassuring that even though a certain character was living in mortal sin, God forgave him the moment he fell from horseback to his death. I suppose there obviously has to be repentance on the part of the individual in such a case, but it is not obviously impossible that this could not happen in a split-second.

Nonetheless, nobody should live with the assumption that God will somehow appear to them and forgive them at the hour of their death. That’s presumptuous to the extreme.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Let’s not go looking for get out of jail free cards.
The Church teaching is very clear. If you die in a state of mortal sin you go to Hell. You have until your dying breath to repent. If you do not repent you condemn yourself. There is no Church teaching that God might absolve you before you die even if you do not repent.

That is NOT Church teaching. The Church does teach that one who dies in a state of mortal sin goes to hell. But she certainly does not teach that “you have until your dying breath to repent.”

The Church also teaches that she does not know what happens at the point of death. That is why she has never stated that any particular person is in hell. What is death? You seem to have defined it as the last dying breath. I submit that a person who is taking that last dying breath is still alive and is alive after taking that last dying breath and that God, who works in eternal time, certainly has the power to absolve a person who repents at the moment of death.

 

[Luvtosew]

Ok I have a hard time understanding some stuff here, ok lets take a scenio, and this is not about me ok, but say,

Living in sin is different than comitting a sin or sinning,

a woman is on birth control and well she has no plans on quiting taking the pill, so really there is no reason to go to confession, but

now say a man has a vasectomy, and he goes to confession and is absolved,

seems funny

cause the man now can have martal relations with his wife without sinning,

or can this man never have marital relations with his wife again??

just trying to understand how this is fair.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Ok I have a hard time understanding some stuff here, ok lets take a scenio, and this is not about me ok, but say,

Living in sin is different than comitting a sin or sinning,

When one commits a sin, one is living in sin.

a woman is on birth control and well she has no plans on quiting taking the pill, so really there is no reason to go to confession

*Au contraire! *If she is using ABC she is committing a grave act. If she knows it is a grave act and still does it will full consent she is committing a mortal sin. If she dies without repenting of that sin she has committed the one sin that God will not forgive and that is a sin against the Holy Spirit. She has spit in the face of God, has turned her back on Him, and He will give her what she has chosen - hell. She NEEDS the Sacrament of Reconciliation desperately.

now say a man has a vasectomy, and he goes to confession and is absolved,

seems funny

cause the man now can have martal relations with his wife without sinning,

or can this man never have marital relations with his wife again??

just trying to understand how this is fair.

I don’t know about the second part of your scenario. It’s a good question when taken separate from the first part of the scenario.

BTW, who ever said life is fair? It’s in the Bible somewhere but the only way I remember the following is from the poem:

The rain from heaven falls upon
the just and unjust fella
but mostly on the just because
the unjust has the just’s umbrella.

It is in the Bible (something about how the rain falls upon the just and unjust). If you wish I’ll try to find the reference. I’m having some computer problems or I would automatically do it. (Sorry).

 

[Luvtosew]

No don’t worry about it, and your right life is not fair.

 

[LittleSoldier]

No don’t worry about it, and your right life is not fair.

I can now respond to the second part of your scenario (I asked someone who knows).

If a man obtains a vasectomy, confesses and is absolved, that’s the end of it (except for any consequences, of course). He isn’t required to have the vasectomy reversed and he is not prohibited from having marital relations.

I admit it seems kind of weird. I assume it would be the same for woman who had a hysterectomy just for birth control although I don’t think that’s a common practice. But then, a man who is absolutely, permanently impotent (and who can’t use any sort of devices to help) can’t get married in the Church because the marriage cannot be consummated. But for women that isn’t a problem as they receive, in a sense.

I think I need to learn more about this. :whacky:

Good questions, Luvtosew! Thanks for making me think!