Does God deceive people?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Luke_K
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

Luke_K

Guest
Pope Pius IX in Dei Filius said:
This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the Catholic Church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.
Click to expand...
It’s a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God “pretended” to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn’t that deception?

Another passage from 2 Kings chapter 6 (vs. 13-23) talks about Elisha praying to God to blind the Aramean soldiers that were trying to kill him, which God did. Then, Elisha told them that they were on the wrong road and in the wrong city, meaning that they were in the wrong place for finding Elisha. Elisha brought them to safe Israelite territory and then had God open their eyes. So in this case God aided Elisha in deceiving the Arameans so that they would be led into safe territory for Elisha to reveal himself to them.

How can these examples be reconciled with a non-deceptive God?
 
Easy. Abraham was told directly to sacrifice Isaac. No deception. It was a test of his faith and obedience. Once Abraham passed the test, the angel told him not to harm the child. No harm was ever intended. God did not deceive the Arameans (Syrians), but only blinded them by answering Elisha’s prayer. Elisha deceived them by his own words, since the Arameans could not recognize him by sight.
 
It is a good question to ask. “If God can do anything, can He deceive people?” What we have to remember though is that a sinful act like deception is a deprivation of being. Just like a hole in your pocket in not really something existing in your pocket but rather is a deprivation of “pocket-ness”. Because God is the fullness of being and His essence is existence, His being cannot be deprived in any way or else He would not be God. This is why He can neither deceive or be deceived.
Good question though, and God bless you!
 
bkennedy said:
It is a good question to ask. “If God can do anything, can He deceive people?” What we have to remember though is that a sinful act like deception is a deprivation of being. Just like a hole in your pocket in not really something existing in your pocket but rather is a deprivation of “pocket-ness”. Because God is the fullness of being and His essence is existence, His being cannot be deprived in any way or else He would not be God. This is why He can neither deceive or be deceived.
Good question though, and God bless you!
Click to expand...
Indeed. Goodness is completeness, and deception is a lack of completeness. God, being complete, could only deceive if He was incomplete - which is impossible. The potential to deceive is not an ability, but a disability, a brokenness. It is not the opposite of goodness, for that implies equality coincident with its opposition. No, it is a vacuum in which no goodness is found. In the purest sense, outer space is not the opposite of our atmosphere - it is the lack of an atmosphere.
 
God says things in a way that permit the unbelieving to justify their unbelief , thus hardening their hearts, and for the believing to grow in their belief.

Take the arguement based around the Christmas psalm… is it a young woman or a virgin?

The answer is that it is both. In the literal historical sense it was a prophecy fulfilled in that time concerning a young woman. So the unbeliever says that there is only one sense of scriptures and therefore it does not speak of Christ.

The believer knows that it does.

Take the words of the serpent in Genesis:
  1. You will not die
  2. You will be like God
  3. Your eyes will be opened
  4. You will know good and evil
The doubter says that:
  1. Adam did not die that day
  2. He became ‘his own man’ and became like God
  3. His eyes were opened to his nakedness
  4. He then knew good and evil
And conclude that the serpent told the truth and God lied.

But the believer hears the same words and discerns that:
  1. Adam died spiritually that day.
  2. He became a slave to sin, not like God at all
  3. Not only did he become blind that day, but deaf, lame and dead.
  4. And he knew only evil all the day long
So the doubter accuses God of being deceptive in such double entendre, and the believer knows that God alone is True.

The doubter sealed in unbelief, and the believer growing in grace and knowledge of the Lord.
 
po18guy said:
Indeed. Goodness is completeness, and deception is a lack of completeness. God, being complete, could only deceive if He was incomplete - which is impossible. The potential to deceive is not an ability, but a disability, a brokenness. It is not the opposite of goodness, for that implies equality coincident with its opposition. No, it is a vacuum in which no goodness is found. In the purest sense, outer space is not the opposite of our atmosphere - it is the lack of an atmosphere.
Click to expand...
The real question is whether deception is really a type of non-being or a non-good.

Sometimes deception is good as when the jews employed spies.

So the question is rather, was it good for God to deceive Abraham?

But was Abraham deceived? It seems so, since if I were to tell someone to do something, as if it was my intention, and to later say that it was not my intention, then I have deceived someone (so it seems) as to my intentions.

I would submit, w/o talking about this specific case, that some deception or “manipulation” is good.
 
Luke_K said:
Pope Pius IX in Dei Filius said:

It’s a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God “pretended” to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn’t that deception?
Click to expand...
No, not really. As a Catholic, I receive the Eucharist and offer myself in sacrifice in union with Jesus upon the altar. It is a living sacrifice. God really did want him sacrificed, just not in the way you’re thinking ?

Abraham knew that he would receive Isaac back alive because of the promise. He reasoned to the resurrection. St. Paul notes this explicitly in one of his epistles. In the OT, there is only one sentence that shows this clearly:

Abraham says, “we who will have gone over there to worship will come back to you.”; The only condition for them both coming back, is that they succeed in worshiping. Hence, it is impossible to assert that Abraham was deceived. Nor is it proper to say that God attempted to deceive him. God DID test him.

There is more I can say – but I think this is enough for now. Does it help or does it raise more questions for you?
 
Luke_K said:
It’s a common-sense notion of Christianity that God does not deceive us. But with the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, God “pretended” to want Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in order to test him. Wasn’t that deception?

Another passage from 2 Kings chapter 6 (vs. 13-23) talks about Elisha praying to God to blind the Aramean soldiers that were trying to kill him, which God did. Then, Elisha told them that they were on the wrong road and in the wrong city, meaning that they were in the wrong place for finding Elisha. Elisha brought them to safe Israelite territory and then had God open their eyes. So in this case God aided Elisha in deceiving the Arameans so that they would be led into safe territory for Elisha to reveal himself to them.

How can these examples be reconciled with a non-deceptive God?
Click to expand...
The Rabbis note that, after Abraham sacrificed Isaac, the Bible does not record that Abraham ever saw Isaac again. That is a sacrifice, if not the one Abraham assumed he would be making.

Although it’s a stretch, Elisha may have asked God to make their blindness to the truth of faith extend to blindness in the world. Notice that Elisha’s attendant has his eyes opened to the hosts of the Lord who surrounded them. And Elisha does do as he says: he takes the soldiers to “the man they want”–if not quite in the way they wanted.

I do not have faith in a God who deceives. That was resolved long ago, when the Docetists claimed that Jesus was not really a human who suffered and died, but who only seemed to do all that. If God lies to us and deceives us, what is the use of believing him? If God cannot show us truth, we are truly hopeless, as St. Paul says, “we are the most pitiable people of all” (1 Cor 15:12-19).

But God does sometimes give us, not what we ask, but what we really need. That is not deceit–if our child asks for candy for breakfast, we say, “No, what you need and want is this, even if you don’t really know it.” And God’s care for us is even more utterly total.
 
bmonk said:
Although it’s a stretch, Elisha may have asked God to make their blindness to the truth of faith extend to blindness in the world. Notice that Elisha’s attendant has his eyes opened to the hosts of the Lord who surrounded them. And Elisha does do as he says: he takes the soldiers to “the man they want”–if not quite in the way they wanted.
Click to expand...
🙂

They were, in fact, in the wrong place to see Elisha – for they were blind for as long as they were in the wrong city.

Consider: If he had revealed himself there, they would have died at the hands of the host of heaven – and died in their sins.

It really isn’t a lie to omit certain facts which are not good for a person to have; either that they may do evil with them, or be led astray by them, or even fail to grow.

What do you think of another puzzle, on the road to Emmaeus – where Jesus is asked “Are you the only pilgrim in Jerusalem who doesn’t know what things have gone on these last days?” Luke 24:18

How very perceptive of that disciple!!! Yet, Jesus says what?
🙂
 
Huiou_Theou said:
What do you think of another puzzle, on the road to Emmaeus – where Jesus is asked “Are you the only pilgrim in Jerusalem who doesn’t know what things have gone on these last days?” Luke 24:18

How very perceptive of that disciple!!! Yet, Jesus says what?
🙂
Click to expand...
He follows by unfolding the Scriptures for them–showing why the Messiah had to suffer and die. And it’s only at the end, after a day of walking seven miles, and they invite him to stay with them that night, that he shows himself in “the breaking of the bread,” of course. So he does remove their blindness, does not deceive them–but all in proper order. . . .
 
bmonk said:
He follows by unfolding the Scriptures for them–showing why the Messiah had to suffer and die. And it’s only at the end, after a day of walking seven miles, and they invite him to stay with them that night, that he shows himself in “the breaking of the bread,” of course. So he does remove their blindness, does not deceive them–but all in proper order. . . .
Click to expand...
I like that answer. :yyeess:🙂

I’m thinking, also, that they were blind in two ways. As to his presence, and secondly to the invisible things which had happened during the distractions of the last few days.:highprayer:
 
God does not deceive people. In the case with Abraham and Isaac, God was testing Abraham’s faith and obedience to Him. No deception has been made here, it was simply a test of faith.
 
What about this:

The LORD asked, ‘Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this, another that, until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked, ‘How?’ He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this. 'So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you." - 1Kings 22:20-23

I would like to get people’s comments on this…

Many thanks!
 
Augustine3 said:
What about this:

The LORD asked, ‘Who will deceive Ahab, so that he will go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this, another that, until one of the spirits came forth and presented himself to the LORD, saying, ‘I will deceive him.’ The LORD asked, ‘How?’ He answered, ‘I will go forth and become a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.’ The LORD replied, 'You shall succeed in deceiving him. Go forth and do this. 'So now, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours, but the LORD himself has decreed evil against you." - 1Kings 22:20-23

I would like to get people’s comments on this…

Many thanks!
Click to expand...
Again, I would venture that God is deceiving people. But lying is frankly a no-no, so his spirit or angel would not be lying. For some reason, perhaps to conceal its’ pearls from swine, the bible is written in ways that could be misleadingly interpreted.
 
Those that have not the love of the truth will have cause to believe a lie. John 8:32

In this God says, “If you’ve hardened your heart to the Way, Truth & Life and being outside time and space gazing into eternity I see you are confirmed in your obstnance, I hereby give you your wish.”

The deception of Abraham was stunning, suggesting he was tapping into two channels, and God denies having put this into his head. Close one. And that is the true nature of miracles: TIMING! Nonetheless, it is a good place to note that Christ fulfills in a sacred way everything that any and all religions forwarded, including child sacrifice.
 
fakename said:
Again, I would venture that God is deceiving people. But lying is frankly a no-no, so his spirit or angel would not be lying. For some reason, perhaps to conceal its’ pearls from swine, the bible is written in ways that could be misleadingly interpreted.
Click to expand...
If it were God’s own spirit, then yes – it would not lie. But I think the text here doesn’t allow us that luxury. The spirit is clearly going to lie.

On the other hand, who was it that stood in heaven to hear this conversation with God? and to whom did that person tell the story?

Read the context of the statement, and it will become clear that God did not himself lie to Achab. Nor did God, himself, tell the lying spirit what lie they were to tell. The odds are greater than 400:1 against God deceiving Achab.

Recall, that the Book of Job, too – speaks about the accuser; the devil himself; appearing before God to lay charges against Job. God allowed the devil to put Job to the test.

There is a sense which must be upheld, where God truly did put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets of Achab. There is also a sense where the king of Judah (the remaining holy/faithful kingdom whom God reserved to himself) could discern that there was need of another voice that Achab was refusing to call upon.
 
The problem with the question, and frankly most of the answers is the failure to recognize that words have more than one meaning.

The robes that the priests wear are “garments of deception” they are costumes as they play-act the role of Christ. Jesus spoke in parables for a purpose “So they would not hear”.
Even the simplest “Where are you?” spoken to Adam can be contrived to mean something wicked, as a lie that Adam was really able to hide from God, when God knew where he was.

The sleight of hand by a ‘magic’ performer is a deception.

The word ‘deception’ does not always mean something evil or a lie. God does his will, and it is always good. That is the foundation for interpretation. So if you think God sinned by lying, you are just plain and simple wrong.

God does not change! Yet God became a baby, isn’t that a change? The God-man grew into a man, isn’t that a change? The man walked around and changed his location… “God does not change” means what God intended it to mean. Not some absolutist pedantic insistence that is means narrowly what some interpreter says it means. Words have many meanings, and when God uses them, they mean what he intends.

So Christ was hidden in the Old Testament. Yes that was a deception, it wasn’t sin.
Gideon and his men broke pots with lanterns in them. It was a deception, not sin.
God said the day Adam ate the fruit he would die. The serpent accused God of lying because Adam would not die physically that day. But Adam did die spiritually exactly as God intended.

God does not sinfully deceive people because he does not sin, but he certainly does things that fall into the broader meaning of deceit without sinning.
 
rcjones said:
The problem with the question, and frankly most of the answers is the failure to recognize that words have more than one meaning.

The robes that the priests wear are “garments of deception” they are costumes as they play-act the role of Christ.
Click to expand...
Ummm, I don’t know about your church, but as Catholics, we don’t “play-act” the role of Christ. We “take the place of Christ” in order to do as he commanded us, “Do this in memory of me.” To do it, someone needs to take Christ’s place.

More, the garments are not costumes. Christ would not have worn them–they are Roman in origin, from the period of the Empire–indeed, in the early centuries, they were the same as other members of the Empire wore.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top