Does God exist outside of time?

[Katholish]

I don’t believe that the statement God exists outside of time is de fide. Please provide something to back this up.

I am not saying that God is subject to time, but I question whether “time” was created. I believe God is infinite. But my point I think is that the statement God exists outside of time is more symbolic than real. Scientists and Philosophers today still argue about the nature of time. Some believe time to be a structure of the intellect. If that is so then even animals may exist “outside of time” in their own world.

We believe in Purgatory, which according to the church is temporary, and takes place in eternity. How is that?

4th Lateran Council and Vatican I. God is eternal. Being outside of time is the very definition of being eternal see St. Thomas, St. Augustine, etc. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma has a short section on it.

Not being subject to time is the same as being “outside” of it. Time is a measure of change. Where there is change, there is time, where there is time, there is change. Animals change, hence they cannot be outside of time.

Purgatory is temporary. Who ever said it takes place in eternity? That is silliness. Purgatory is very much in time–clearly time is perceived very differently in any purely spiritual realm, but since there is change, there is time, it would just be a more discrete as opposed to continuous time.

 

[Katholish]

Are the Angels part of the material world?
Are they “outside of time?”

Angels are part of the created universe, but are not material.

They are subject to time, because they can experience change. Their mode of time, however, is very different. We refer to it as the aevum, or aeveterity. St. Thomas likes to describe it as a mean between time and eternity, but that can confuse the issue a little. For all practical purposes, they would be considered inside of time, but with the acknowledgement that they perceive time not in terms of hours and days, but as intervals between immaterial changes.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

4th Lateran Council and Vatican I. God is eternal. Being outside of time is the very definition of being eternal see St. Thomas, St. Augustine, etc. Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma has a short section on it.

Not being subject to time is the same as being “outside” of it. Time is a measure of change. Where there is change, there is time, where there is time, there is change. Animals change, hence they cannot be outside of time.

Purgatory is temporary. Who ever said it takes place in eternity? That is silliness. Purgatory is very much in time–clearly time is perceived very differently in any purely spiritual realm, but since there is change, there is time, it would just be a more discrete as opposed to continuous time.

No, being “outside of time” is NOT the very definition of infinite. Notice I didn’t say eternal as you have done, since even we humans are eternal. You have not shown any source stating that God exists outside of time (using those words) is De Fide.

Not being subject to time is NOT the same as being “outside of time.” As you have already said in another post Angels are “inside of time” just not the same as us.

And if Purgatory exists inside of time, which by YOUR definition means inside the physical universe, then where is it? How are spiritual souls there?

This is where your explanations get very muddied and circular. You aren’t sure if time exists in eternity or not, or whether Spirits are “inside” of time or “outside” of time, since now you have to work with that construct.

What I will allow, is that God, who is infinite, is not subject to time the way creation is. By creation I include Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, the Angels, devils, Mankind, and the physical universe.

I would have an easier time believing that God IS time then that God is “outside of time.” IOW that time is a quality of GOD, but as the owner, not as the subject.

 

[Katholish]

No, being “outside of time” is NOT the very definition of infinite. Notice I didn’t say eternal as you have done, since even we humans are eternal. You have not shown any source stating that God exists outside of time (using those words) is De Fide.

St. Thomas explains that only God is eternal, properly speaking, and that eternity, properly speaking, means being outside of time. When we say that humans and angels are eternal, we speak in an analogous sense meaning an infinite length of time.

Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q 10, A3:

I answer that, Eternity truly and properly so called is in God alone, because eternity follows on immutability; as appears from the first article. But God alone is altogether immutable, as was shown above (Question 9, Article 1). Accordingly, however, as some receive immutability from Him, they share in His eternity. Thus some receive immutability from God in the way of never ceasing to exist; in that sense it is said of the earth, “it standeth for ever” (Ecclesiastes 1:4). Again, some things are called eternal in Scripture because of the length of their duration, although they are in nature corruptible; thus (Psalm 75:5) the hills are called “eternal” and we read “of the fruits of the eternal hills.” (Deuteronomy 33:15). Some again, share more fully than others in the nature of eternity, inasmuch as they possess unchangeableness either in being or further still in operation; like the angels, and the blessed, who enjoy the Word, because “as regards that vision of the Word, no changing thoughts exist in the Saints,” as Augustine says (De Trin. xv). Hence those who see God are said to have eternal life; according to that text, “This is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true God,” etc. (John 17:3).

The de fide teaching is that God is eternal, but since the definition of eternity by definition involves immutability, the lack of change, and being “outside” of time, those concepts are included in the doctrine of the Church.

Not being subject to time is NOT the same as being “outside of time.” As you have already said in another post Angels are “inside of time” just not the same as us.

Angels are subject to time insofar as they change. If you are completely and totally not subject to time, you are “outside” of it, and by definition, eternal properly speaking.

And if Purgatory exists inside of time, which by YOUR definition means inside the physical universe, then where is it? How are spiritual souls there?

I am lost as to how you conclude that because Purgatory exists in time, that it must be “physical” by which I assume you mean material. I never said nor implied such a thing. Changes can be immaterial as well as material. For instance, I can learn a new idea–or an angel can learn a new idea. There is a before and an after that new idea was learned, hence there is time. Purgatory does not exist in the material universe.

This is where your explanations get very muddied and circular. You aren’t sure if time exists in eternity or not, or whether Spirits are “inside” of time or “outside” of time, since now you have to work with that construct.

Everything that is not God exists in time. Not a tricky concept.

What I will allow, is that God, who is infinite, is not subject to time the way creation is. By creation I include Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, the Angels, devils, Mankind, and the physical universe.

Yet, you won’t to hold onto the notion that God is subject to time in some different way? It is impossible to do that without denying the other attributes of God.

I would have an easier time believing that God IS time then that God is “outside of time.” IOW that time is a quality of GOD, but as the owner, not as the subject.

God is the measure of change? What sense does that make?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The de fide teaching is that God is eternal, but since the definition of eternity by definition involves immutability, the lack of change, and being “outside” of time, those concepts are included in the doctrine of the Church.

Your opinion. The Church does not teach De Fide that God is “outside of time.” You have drawn conclusions, which may be logical, but yet doesn’t justify the concept of “outside of time.” It may seem self-evident to you, but not to me.

Angels are subject to time insofar as they change. If you are completely and totally not subject to time, you are “outside” of it, and by definition, eternal properly speaking.

So then you are saying that Angels who are pure spirits are “inside of time.”

So you seem to deny the space/time dimension that Science takes for granted. IOW, although Angels are not subject to space, yet they are somehow still subject to time. No?

So my conclusion is that time is NOT really a part of the physical universe, and therefore exists in eternity.

So then, my point is that, if time exists in both the physical universe and in eternity, then God is not “outside of time” any more than he is “outside of Heaven.”

However, don’t mistake my meaning. I am not saying that God is subject to time, rather that he owns time as a construct or creation of His own, just as Heaven is.

Yet God created Heaven as a place where all of His creation could be with him, since time only applies to creation.

Now you will say that I am admitting that God is “outside of time.” But I really am not. Just like I wouldn’t say that God is “outside of Heaven.”

God may have condescended to occupy these dimensions in order to be with His creation. We know this is True with the Incarnation certainly. We know this is True so that He can be with His creation in Heaven. That is why I question (not object) to the term “outside of time.”

I suppose I would prefer a term like God transcends time.

It may seem like a trifling difference, but in my mind it is huge.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

St. Thomas explains that only God is eternal, properly speaking, and that eternity, properly speaking, means being outside of time. When we say that humans and angels are eternal, we speak in an analogous sense meaning an infinite length of time.

Summa Theologica, Prima Pars, Q 10, A3:

The de fide teaching is that God is eternal, but since the definition of eternity by definition involves immutability, the lack of change, and being “outside” of time, those concepts are included in the doctrine of the Church.

Angels are subject to time insofar as they change. If you are completely and totally not subject to time, you are “outside” of it, and by definition, eternal properly speaking.

I am lost as to how you conclude that because Purgatory exists in time, that it must be “physical” by which I assume you mean material. I never said nor implied such a thing. Changes can be immaterial as well as material. For instance, I can learn a new idea–or an angel can learn a new idea. There is a before and an after that new idea was learned, hence there is time. Purgatory does not exist in the material universe.

Everything that is not God exists in time. Not a tricky concept.

Yet, you won’t to hold onto the notion that God is subject to time in some different way? It is impossible to do that without denying the other attributes of God.

God is the measure of change? What sense does that make?

Your answers here and in posts 21 and 22 are excellent. I think you will do well in your studies. Linus2nd

 

[Katholish]

Your opinion. The Church does not teach De Fide that God is “outside of time.” You have drawn conclusions, which may be logical, but yet doesn’t justify the concept of “outside of time.” It may seem self-evident to you, but not to me.

You are correct that the exact terminology “outside of time” is not part of the Church’s strictly de fide teaching. I am arguing that the Church’s de fide teaching on the eternity of God logically includes the notion of being “outside of time”. I am also making the assertion, not really on my own opinion, but borrowing the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, whom the Church recognizes as an authority in such matters (though admittedly not infallible in his own right) that eternity, properly speaking, refers only to God and indicates changlessness, hence, not an infinite succession of time, but being completely outside of it.

This is offered in way of a reformulation of my argument, not as a refutation.

So then you are saying that Angels who are pure spirits are “inside of time.”

Yes. Time is a measure of change. Angels are subject to change, thus angels are subjec to time. The specific unit of measurement that we on earth are accustomed to, e.g. hours and minutes, are not necessarily the same units angels use to measure their change.

So you seem to deny the space/time dimension that Science takes for granted. IOW, although Angels are not subject to space, yet they are somehow still subject to time. No?

All space necessarily relates to time, but since change can occur in a purely non-material setting, and wherever there is change, there is before and after, then yes, I am saying that time is broader than the material universe and is related to everything in the created universe, not just material and spatial things.

So my conclusion is that time is NOT really a part of the physical universe, and therefore exists in eternity.

Immaterial realities should not be equated with “eternity” as if “eternity” were some kind of place immaterial things inhabit. Angels do not exist “in eternity”.

So then, my point is that, if time exists in both the physical universe and in eternity, then God is not “outside of time” any more than he is “outside of Heaven.”

Time does not exist in eternity as the definition of eternity is the absense of time. (Eternity also has the secondary meaning of being an infinite succession of time, which is what we mean when we speak of any created immaterial thing.)

However, don’t mistake my meaning. I am not saying that God is subject to time, rather that he owns time as a construct or creation of His own, just as Heaven is.

Perhaps therein lies part of the problem. Perhaps we are looking at the term “outside” in two different ways. If one were to look at “outside” in spatial terms, I could see your objection. It would be like saying that God created the material world, yet He is “outside” of that world–such language could lead to the false conclusion that God is somehow absent from the material world. Yet Catholic dogma states that God is immense–that He is all-present. There is no “place” in which He is not.

If we speak of “outside” not in spatial terms, but in say, “essential” terms, and view “outside” as meaning “not one of” or “other than” like we might be of an “outsider” “foreign” “of a different nature” “does not belong to”. If we said that God was “outside” of the material world in this sense, I don’t think we would have any problem with it. God is not “of” matter. It is not His nature. It is something “foreign” to Him–something “other than” Himself.

In this sense, “outside” really means the same as “not subject to”. That is really how myself, and other posters are using the phrase “outside of time” in the context of this discussion. That is way several posts ago I made the claim that not being subject to time means being outside of it. I didn’t understand your objection to that claim at the time, nor did you seems to understand my assertion. Perhaps an equivocal use of the term “outside” is at fault for our disagreement. That would really be in keeping with the best Thomistic arguments, which are usually resolved by determining that language is being used in two different ways.

I suppose I would prefer a term like God transcends time.

“Transcends” seems lacking to me somehow. Time and matter seem to be very similar in this context. I wouldn’t want to merely say that God “transcends” matter. I would want to say (quite emphatically) that God is not material, just as I would want to say that God is not temporal. It isn’t that He is “above” time, but that time is something completely foreign and inconsistent with His nature (much the same way matter is).

Of course, when speaking of the Incarnation, all bets are off, but even then, we are not speaking of the Divine Nature taking on flesh or “entering” time, so I see no need to explore that area in the context of the present discussion.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

You are correct that the exact terminology “outside of time” is not part of the Church’s strictly de fide teaching.

Thank you.

Perhaps therein lies part of the problem. Perhaps we are looking at the term “outside” in two different ways. If one were to look at “outside” in spatial terms, I could see your objection. It would be like saying that God created the material world, yet He is “outside” of that world–such language could lead to the false conclusion that God is somehow absent from the material world. Yet Catholic dogma states that God is immense–that He is all-present. There is no “place” in which He is not.

Thank you.
It is also intrinsic to the meaning of the words “outside of” to be speaking in a spatial sense.

“Transcends” seems lacking to me somehow. Time and matter seem to be very similar in this context. I wouldn’t want to merely say that God “transcends” matter. I would want to say (quite emphatically) that God is not material, just as I would want to say that God is not temporal. It isn’t that He is “above” time, but that time is something completely foreign and inconsistent with His nature (much the same way matter is).

Now here I disagree.

We have both already proven that time is not similar at all, and much less “very” similar to space. We have both already agreed that all of creation including Heaven, Hell, Angels, devils, Purgatory and human souls of the deceased are all subject to time, and yet as being spiritual are not at all bound by space. So time and space are distinctly different and not similar. Therefore saying that God transcends time is no where close to saying God transcends space.

However if you look up the meaning of transcends, you will see that it says goes beyond the limits, as an abstract description. It is possible that the word transcends has been debased by easy usage in today’s society. But my point was that it seemed to articulate my thought. By using such a term we are not saying that God is “outside” of time, but rather He is both in it and beyond it at once.

As I said, God has seemingly condescended to meet his creation in time, although he is above time, or transcends time. Once you say God is “outside of time” or worse still “God exists outside of time” you are similarly saying God is “outside of space” which you have already agreed is wrong above.

 

[Katholish]

Would you be ok with the statement: “God is completely non-temporal.” ?

Perhaps I should also ask another important question, which is, do you agree with the definition of time that I and other posters have been using, namely, “the measure of change”?

(I am not failing to respond to the points you are making about “transcends” it just seemed like this was important to determine before launching into an answer.)

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Perhaps I should also ask another important question, which is, do you agree with the definition of time that I and other posters have been using, namely, “the measure of change”?

I would first need to ask you what you mean by “the measure of change.”

One can have thoughts that change from pleasing to displeasing or

One can have a change in existence; from living with a body and soul, to a time when the soul is separated from the body or before some angels fell from grace and their existence afterwards or

One can say that a rock in space never changes, or universal constants never change (like the speed of light)

The idea of “measure of change” is very fluid and inconstant. For that reason, I question if it can even be used as a measure. We can certainly use it in a very circumscribed physical sense, when we all agree to the timekeeping of an atomic clock.

But in eternity (my use of this word means in the spiritual realm) time may be nothing like what we are used to here in the physical universe.

Because of all these unknowns, I have a very difficult time defining time at all!

I can say without any doubt however that time does exist, and it can be discovered (but not necessarily measured) from one change to another. But ah! what does one mean by “change?” In the physical universe it is not so difficult, but in eternity we have no knowledge.

E.g. Jesus says (very vehemently I might add) that He is going to Heaven to prepare a “place” for his Apostles. John 14:1-3 How do we imagine that can be done if Heaven is just a “state of mind” the way many like to describe Hell.

I say there is much more to eternity than what our limited worldly knowledge would lead us to believe. IOW, time AND space will still have some sort of meaning.

How can we be WITH GOD in Heaven, if GOD is “outside of time” which would put Him beyond where we can be?

Are we to suppose that being united with God will be like suspended animation where nothing changes because there is no time?

I don’t know the answer to many of these questions, I don’t know that anybody does.

But I do maintain that saying God is “outside of time” is not self-evident, or any kind of established fact. But I can agree that God transcends time.

 

[JimG]

. . . . .How can we be WITH GOD in Heaven, if GOD is “outside of time” which would put Him beyond where we can be? . . .

My own thought is this: We can be with God in heaven even though God is outside of time, in much the same way that we can be with God in heaven even though God is also outside of space.

He does not occupy space. He does not occupy time. Yet he can interact with his creation because he is Creator.

It is easy to see how time is a measure of change within the physical universe: that is, after all, how clocks work, by measuring change. But if change occurs in the spiritual world, time would also represent the measure of that change—such a purification in purgatory. But I’m not sure if that is the same kind of time that we are ordinarily familiar with.

And since God is changeless—i.e., immutable, time could not apply to him. What would it mean to say that time applies to God? To say that God is inside of time would mean he is subject to time. But He is not.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

JimG:

And since God is changeless—i.e., immutable, time could not apply to him. What would it mean to say that time applies to God? To say that God is inside of time would mean he is subject to time. But He is not.

No one here is saying God is inside of time.

 

[Semangelof]

It is my belief, due to a particular charism of mine that we, our complete selves, everything we know as “I” exists in different parts of time. And I don’t mean past lives, I mean from the present forward.

What I mean is that our selves are divided, how many times and how many pieces I don’t know, but at the very least you can think of it as the conscious and the subconscious. Our consciousness, where our regular senses are attached sits plainly in the normal time instance. However there is a least one other pieces that sits in a broader range of time.

It is from that other piece that future events pass through by accident, by some weakness, or by some charism into the regular consciousness. It’s as if the self that exists tomorrow experiences something that for some reason or another is eventful enough to move it’s way back to the self before it.

Here is one example which I call reversed memory.

I walked across an area and my body stopped me. I looked at a particular spot on the ground, about the size of a half dollar and a thought entered me “why do I always see bugs turned upside down?” "Should I help them up or are they upside down on purpose because they are dying and in pain. (I have heard bugs will flip over to ease the pain of death) If I happen to see a bug upside down how will I know if I should turn him over? Two hours later I walked across that same area, and in the same single spot on the ground I saw a bug turned upside down, and begging for help. It’s as if my memory is in reverse.

These types of things are very bizarre, very hard to understand, especially when they happen frequently (to which I won’t debate coincidence). But for me at least it gives me some idea of how God may be both inside and outside time.

Now I only speculate here, unprofessionally at best, but maybe He experiences things in the same way only to an eternal scope. If He was entirely in all times at once he would be both at the day of our creation and the day of Jesus’s death, feeling joy and sorrow simultaneously. Maybe He is layered in a way to have a certain piece experiencing time in a normal order, and a second piece experiencing and knowing all of time at once, with willful communication between the two pieces. In the same way as my consciousness was in a normal part of time, while some other piece of me was concurrently in a time two hours ahead of the present.

I know it’s all angels on a head of pin stuff, but that’s how I have viewed it based on my own life experiences. And I wouldn’t risk my credulity by publicly mentioning my experiences but for the fact that I can do so anonymously; and so completely walk away from it with my dignity and the generally allotted measure of respect intact.

 

[Semangelof]

To edify the above I will say that many things exist concurrently at different periods of time. Science has even proven it.

Two atomic clocks were synchronized. One was placed on earth, One was placed in a jet traveling very fast. When the plane landed the two clocks were not the same.

Time travels differently depending on your speed. Perhaps in our case the “pieces” that compose us are not traveling at the same speed. At the very least none of us are bound by the same clock. It’s all a very strange world we live in.

Science has even postulated sending messages into the past or future using particles that move through time due to their speed. Anyway time, whatever it is, is not our clocks.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

What kind of ‘time’ are ‘we’ referring to?

Does ‘time’ only exist within ‘physical temporality’, or is there also some sort of ‘time’ that has meaning within the dimension(s) of infinity and eternity? If God is OF everything, directly or indirectly [the Alpha plus and Omega plus], then it seems rational and reasonable to suggest that ‘time(s)’ is/are under His control rather than the other way around.

 

[Frankenfurter]

Time as an independent variable does not exist, as Einstein has proven through reason with General Relativity.

The point is therefore actually moot.

But yes, as we casual observers understand time, God lives outside of that human concept. But not because he is magic, but because our understanding of time is confined.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Time as an independent variable does not exist, as Einstein has proven through reason with General Relativity.

The point is therefore actually moot.

But yes, as we casual observers understand time, God lives outside of that human concept. But not because he is magic, but because our understanding of time is confined.

I agree in substance with your comment, but I question whether God “lives outside of time.” You say that is only the casual observer’s understanding. But I think God transcends time because he meets his creation in time. Saying God lives where we can not, would be false, as was already said earlier.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Time as an independent variable does not exist, as Einstein has proven through reason with General Relativity.

The point is therefore actually moot.

But yes, as we casual observers understand time, God lives outside of that human concept. But not because he is magic, but because our understanding of time is confined.

I think you will find that my post covered the physical and temporal ‘time’ - what I also alluded to was that in other radically different dimensions, such as the ‘spiritual’ there can be other ‘natures’ of ‘time’ - that if things ‘happen’ in such dimensions the ‘time state’ continuum can take on ‘laws’ that the physical and temporal does not possess.

As you say, while living in the ‘physical and temporal’ our understanding of time tends to be limited to the ‘laws’ and constraints of those 11 or so dimensions.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I think you will find that my post covered the physical and temporal ‘time’ - what I also alluded to was that in other radically different dimensions, such as the ‘spiritual’ there can be other ‘natures’ of ‘time’ - that if things ‘happen’ in such dimensions the ‘time state’ continuum can take on ‘laws’ that the physical and temporal does not possess.

As you say, while living in the ‘physical and temporal’ our understanding of time tends to be limited to the ‘laws’ and constraints of those 11 or so dimensions.

Very well said. You seem to understand why I have a problem with God existing “outside of time.”