Does God Exist?

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benedictus2

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I would like to invite everyone to put forward the pros and cons on the existence of God.

I would very much like to learn the reason why agnostics and atheists hold their position.

If you are Christian, can you argue for Christ’s Divinity without solely relying on the Bible?

Your responses will be much appreciated.
 
Two of the reasons I believe in God are Intelligent Design and the Roman Catholic Church.
 
I guess the biggest indicator to me is how complex the world is. Sometimes I wonder how someone can not believe in a grand orchestrator, when they study science. How everything works in complete synchronization is quite beautiful to me, and not at all random.
 
What convinces me is Jesus. He came lived, preached, and died. If you follow the train of though of C.S. Lewis he must be God, also if you read Peter Kreeft He must have risen from the dea.He also established a Church that is still around today and that is longer than any nations government. The behavior of the early Church is also an indicator to the truth that is Christ. The Church has been criticized time and time again over the course of history, yet it has not fallen. Man cannot take credit for this (Matt. 16:18, 28:20)

Jesus is the truth (Jn 14:6) and the Roman Catholic Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)

Also if you read Scott Hahn and Ben Wiker’s book that dismantles Dawkins arguments in the “God Delusion” you come to realize that there is no good argument against the existence of God…just a lot of rhetoric 👍
 
elliejanba said:
I guess the biggest indicator to me is how complex the world is. Sometimes I wonder how someone can not believe in a grand orchestrator, when they study science. How everything works in complete synchronization is quite beautiful to me, and not at all random.
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Thanks Elliejanba.

Have you given this much thought and can you outline for me (if you have the time) your thought process on this?

Let me know if I am not making sense with this question.

Peace!
 
RCWarrior821 said:
What convinces me is Jesus. He came lived, preached, and died. If you follow the train of though of C.S. Lewis he must be God, also if you read Peter Kreeft He must have risen from the dea.He also established a Church that is still around today and that is longer than any nations government. The behavior of the early Church is also an indicator to the truth that is Christ. The Church has been criticized time and time again over the course of history, yet it has not fallen. Man cannot take credit for this (Matt. 16:18, 28:20)

Jesus is the truth (Jn 14:6) and the Roman Catholic Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)

Also if you read Scott Hahn and Ben Wiker’s book that dismantles Dawkins arguments in the “God Delusion” you come to realize that there is no good argument against the existence of God…just a lot of rhetoric 👍
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Hi RC,

If you find extra time, can you give me a more detailed explanation of the above without quoting the Bible?

Is the Peter Kreeft article you are referring to in his website? If not can you give me the name of the book or the link.

I have read most of Scott Hahn’s books, can you tell me which one you are referring to?

If there are any agnostics out there, I would very much like to hear your views:)

Peace!
 
benedictus2 said:
Hi RC,

If you find extra time, can you give me a more detailed explanation of the above without quoting the Bible?

Is the Peter Kreeft article you are referring to in his website? If not can you give me the name of the book or the link.

I have read most of Scott Hahn’s books, can you tell me which one you are referring to?

If there are any agnostics out there, I would very much like to hear your views:)

Peace!
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peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm
peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm
peterkreeft.com/featured-writing.htm
 
benedictus2 said:
Hi RC,

If you find extra time, can you give me a more detailed explanation of the above without quoting the Bible?

Is the Peter Kreeft article you are referring to in his website? If not can you give me the name of the book or the link.

I have read most of Scott Hahn’s books, can you tell me which one you are referring to?

If there are any agnostics out there, I would very much like to hear your views:)

Peace!
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Well I did not quote the Bible as evidence of anything but rather to show what the Bible itself states about Jesus. That was more for the believers to see that showing Christ and His Church was a good, sound way of finding out what the “Truth” about God is.

The Scott Hahn Book is amazing and a def must buy.

amazon.com/Answering-New-Atheism-Dismantling-Dawkins/dp/1931018480

and the Peter Kreeft articles were put on by someone else
 
RCWarrior821 said:
Well I did not quote the Bible as evidence of anything but rather to show what the Bible itself states about Jesus. That was more for the believers to see that showing Christ and His Church was a good, sound way of finding out what the “Truth” about God is.

The Scott Hahn Book is amazing and a def must buy.

amazon.com/Answering-New-Atheism-Dismantling-Dawkins/dp/1931018480

and the Peter Kreeft articles were put on by someone else
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Thanks! I will get it this Saturday.
 
Here’s my very scientific reasoning.

Either God exists or He does not. We’ve asked this question in many ways for many centuries. It cannot conclusively be answered on this side of our death.

The tipping point for me in the direction of God existing is simply that love exists. Without God, I see no reason for love.

There is Love therefore there is God.

The Story of Salvation History is a close second 😉 .
 
Mijoy2 said:
Here’s my very scientific reasoning.

Either God exists or He does not. We’ve asked this question in many ways for many centuries. It cannot conclusively be answered on this side of our death.

The tipping point for me in the direction of God existing is simply that love exists. Without God, I see no reason for love.

There is Love therefore there is God.

The Story of Salvation History is a close second 😉 .
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This may sound a stupid question for you but was there some thought process, some reasoning that made you jump from the reality of love to reality of God.

I don’t want to say that God is Love and since there is Love therefore God exists because this to me begs the question.

If you can give a bit more detail that would be most helpful.

Thanks very much for your response.
 
I’m going to take a stab at responding to your question, but I’m really sleepy and it may not make as much sense as I hope.

I was a Christian for 98% of my life. However, I reached a point at which I could just no longer believe. This was a result of many things: personal experience (including my being bipolar), observation, and reason. When I realized that I had truly lost my faith, I also realized that the only thing, besides gut feelings/faith, which supported Chrisitanity was the Bible. Unfortunately, the argument for the Bible’s authenticity is circular (the church says it is real, the Bible says we should listen to the church). There’s another active thread in this same section on the validity of the Bible which is very good - presenting arguments on both sides. I won’t repeat those arguments here; suffice to say I do not believe it is inspired.

I do want to add that I am not an atheist. I guess I’m an agnostic - I’m a big believer in the supernatural, but I don’t belive in any kind of personal god. What’s out there? I haven’t the faintest idea, nor do I think it is possible for me to know. So, I’ll just leave it at that and go to sleep.
 
Swan said:
I’m going to take a stab at responding to your question, but I’m really sleepy and it may not make as much sense as I hope.

I was a Christian for 98% of my life. However, I reached a point at which I could just no longer believe. This was a result of many things: personal experience (including my being bipolar), observation, and reason. When I realized that I had truly lost my faith, I also realized that the only thing, besides gut feelings/faith, which supported Chrisitanity was the Bible. Unfortunately, the argument for the Bible’s authenticity is circular (the church says it is real, the Bible says we should listen to the church). There’s another active thread in this same section on the validity of the Bible which is very good - presenting arguments on both sides. I won’t repeat those arguments here; suffice to say I do not believe it is inspired.

I do want to add that I am not an atheist. I guess I’m an agnostic - I’m a big believer in the supernatural, but I don’t belive in any kind of personal god. What’s out there? I haven’t the faintest idea, nor do I think it is possible for me to know. So, I’ll just leave it at that and go to sleep.
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Hi Swan,

When you’re refreshedin the morning, could you share with me why you don’t believe in God.

If someone were to come to you telling you you’re crazy not to believe in God, what would your arguments be?

I don’t believe in God because…?

Many thanks for replying.

Peace!
 
benedictus2 said:
I would like to invite everyone to put forward the pros and cons on the existence of God.
Click to expand...
Honestly, does it matter? I don’t mean to be offensive but would you act any differently if God did not exist? You would live your life by some sort of “rule”; even “no rules” is a rule. Either way, doing so would be an act of freewill. If you need a God to keep you in line through some fear of punishment (coercion) then how really “free” is your choice in the end? If you act “morally” through your own freewill do you think that you will be “rewarded” more or less if you do so out of knowledge of God’s existence or ignorance of God’s existence? Or perhaps we are all equally rewarded…
benedictus2 said:
I would very much like to learn the reason why agnostics and atheists hold their position.

If you are Christian, can you argue for Christ’s Divinity without solely relying on the Bible?

Your responses will be much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Try this one. If God is the “source” of everything (including itself!?!) then everything is really “made up of” God, i.e., everything consists of and comes from God’s “divinity”. If this is so, then Jesus as well as everything else consists of God. Every single atom. On this basis Jesus (among other things) could be said to be divine.

If this is not the case, then some things exist (and have existed) independent of God’s existence and creation. Who or what created those things (and likewise who or what created them…) ad infinitum.

Take off your shoes for where you stand is holy ground…
 
Peregrino said:
Honestly, does it matter? I don’t mean to be offensive but would you act any differently if God did not exist? You would live your life by some sort of “rule”; even “no rules” is a rule. Either way, doing so would be an act of freewill. If you need a God to keep you in line through some fear of punishment (coercion) then how really “free” is your choice in the end? If you act “morally” through your own freewill do you think that you will be “rewarded” more or less if you do so out of knowledge of God’s existence or ignorance of God’s existence? Or perhaps we are all equally rewarded…

Try this one. If God is the “source” of everything (including itself!?!) then everything is really “made up of” God, i.e., everything consists of and comes from God’s “divinity”. If this is so, then Jesus as well as everything else consists of God. Every single atom. On this basis Jesus (among other things) could be said to be divine.

If this is not the case, then some things exist (and have existed) independent of God’s existence and creation. Who or what created those things (and likewise who or what created them…) ad infinitum.

Take off your shoes for where you stand is holy ground…
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To your first question, no I don’t know if I would live my life any differently but the mere thought of a God less universe is the most horrifying thought I can imagine.

The whole reason for the thread is purely for my information.

To try to understand the thought processes that go through the agnostic/atheist mind. Can they actually rationally convince themselves if they put their effort on it on the non existence of “a Higher Being” to put it simply. Or are they just atheist because they really have not thought of it and were not particularly brought up in a religious household.

Belief in God is a gift. Assuming that they have not been given the gift (or may have rejected it), and assuming further that they are capable of rational thought, I would like to find out why they hold the position that they do.

There are some well known atheist/agnostics and I suppose I would like to know how the ordinary one thinks.

At the end of the exercise I hope to gain a better understanding of their views and better engage my agnostic and atheist acquaintances in discussion of the matter.

Hope that clarrifies the reason for this thread.

Peace!
 
If an interplanetary archeologist visited earth a million years after humans ceased to exist here and only fossil records of computers existed, this archeologist couldn’t help but see the evolution of computers. However, would this archeologist conclude they occurred by random chance or that these relatively complex things had an intelligent designer(s)?

Humans and all of the living things on earth are far more wonderful and complex than the most advanced computer. Especially when the natural state of the universe is a trend toward increasing entropy (ie. increasing disorder), I think it would be a mathematical immposibility that we occurred by chance.
 
M_Leakos said:
If an interplanetary archeologist visited earth a million years after humans ceased to exist here and only fossil records of computers existed, this archeologist couldn’t help but see the evolution of computers. However, would this archeologist conclude they occurred by random chance or that these relatively complex things had an intelligent designer(s)?

Humans and all of the living things on earth are far more wonderful and complex than the most advanced computer. Especially when the natural state of the universe is a trend toward increasing entropy (ie. increasing disorder), I think it would be a mathematical immposibility that we occurred by chance.
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That is a very concise and simple argument.

Thanks very much.

I had a similar argument in mind but you put it much better.
 
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