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benedictus2
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I forgot to respond to this section of your post. I think this is quite brilliant.
Thank you.
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Thank you.
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M_Leakos
Guest
If I create a pot from clay, is the pot made up of me, or does it have an independent existence? I’m not sure what you are saying. Could you elaborate?
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benedictus2
Guest
I think I sort of get what Peregrino means. Because everything was created by God then everything in a sense is of God. If we create pot from clay, because we did not make the clay then the pot is not of us.
But our children are in a sense “of us.”
Then again, I might have completely misunderstood what he meant
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dg5887
Guest
I found this great website if you would like to take a look. It gives very compelling scientific reasoning for the existance of God. Be sure to check out the anthropic principles.
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html)
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html)
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benedictus2
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Thanks I will do that.I found this great website if you would like to take a look. It gives very compelling scientific reasoning for the existance of God. Be sure to check out the anthropic principles.
[(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html](http://www.(name removed by moderator)lainsite.org/html/does_god_exist.html)
Peace!
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Peregrino
Guest
No problem. I was raised as an atheist. You said it better than I could: faith is a gift. The question I must raise (especially in light of many of my athiest relatives) is whether the belief really matters beyond your conduct. I know there exists a wide spectrum of thoughts on this matter; I tend to believe that God emphasizes conduct over belief-otherwise “hell” is likely a very populated place and that is something that is at odds with my conception of a merciful God.
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Peregrino
Guest
Where did the clay come from? Who created the matter comprising “the clay”?
Did God
- create the clay out of the same “nothingness” that God came from (or created itself from (?));
- create the clay from its own self (which came from the same nothingness…).
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benedictus2
Guest
When you were atheist, what would you say were your main objection to theism if you still remember?
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Snowy
Guest
Personally, whatever it is that tells me that I didn’t need Moses to know that I shouldn’t dishonor my parents, kill, steal, etc. tells me that God exists.
As for the thought processes in a nut shell that made me a Christian:
I had always enjoyed reading about history. About two years ago I was reading a book about the 2nd World War that mentioned that Winston Churchill had written a book of memoirs about the war; I got it, and by the time I finished the 6th volume I was a certified Conservative, anti-Communist and Anglophile (hats off to Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and Canadians). That lead me to realize that the Communists’ biggest obstacle isn’t Capitalist pigs but Christians and their values. At that time I used to participate in a political forum (no holds barred), and noticed that almost all the Progressives who swore by the Kumbaya, when someone mentioned Jesus, turned into rabid anti-Catholics who couldn’t stop themselves from blaspheming, like little devils sprinkled with Holy water. I thought I’d give them Christians in the forum a hand by giving credit where credit is due, and started to explain how what we call Western civilization is really Christian civilization, how the Universal Human Rights are actually Christian rights and circunscribed pretty much to the Western world, etc. That, to the eyes of the Progressives, turned me into a Fascist pig. By the time I was done with my defense of Christians, I tranquily went to the bookstore and bought me a Bible and the U.S. Cathecism for Adult Education. That same night, six weeks ago, after reading the first chapter, I was a Christian and more Papist than the Pope.
As for the thought processes in a nut shell that made me a Christian:
I had always enjoyed reading about history. About two years ago I was reading a book about the 2nd World War that mentioned that Winston Churchill had written a book of memoirs about the war; I got it, and by the time I finished the 6th volume I was a certified Conservative, anti-Communist and Anglophile (hats off to Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and Canadians). That lead me to realize that the Communists’ biggest obstacle isn’t Capitalist pigs but Christians and their values. At that time I used to participate in a political forum (no holds barred), and noticed that almost all the Progressives who swore by the Kumbaya, when someone mentioned Jesus, turned into rabid anti-Catholics who couldn’t stop themselves from blaspheming, like little devils sprinkled with Holy water. I thought I’d give them Christians in the forum a hand by giving credit where credit is due, and started to explain how what we call Western civilization is really Christian civilization, how the Universal Human Rights are actually Christian rights and circunscribed pretty much to the Western world, etc. That, to the eyes of the Progressives, turned me into a Fascist pig. By the time I was done with my defense of Christians, I tranquily went to the bookstore and bought me a Bible and the U.S. Cathecism for Adult Education. That same night, six weeks ago, after reading the first chapter, I was a Christian and more Papist than the Pope.
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elliejanba
Guest
I sort of believe that God always existed. I think that concept is hard to believe, that something always existed. Because everything we know has a beginning and an end, and is continually reproducing itself. But even the big bang theory, seems sort of ridiculous, something had to be there first. What caused the big bang?
I studied ancient cultures in college, and what was amazing was that every culture has a creationism story. The Big Bang theory being very similar, a modern creationism story, akin to Die Hard, or the action stories we like in the Western World. It has an explosion that comes out of know where…I don’t know where I’m going with this.
But it just seems to me, that science or even the ideas of religion as a study, is never going to be concrete. And one should never think of it as the end, or the beginning. That people shouldn’t feel pressured to align themselves one way or another. But look at evidence, regardless of where the evidence comes from, and make the best decision they can make. But ultimately know that more information will come to light, and that they need to continually shape truth, because truth will always be an unknown.
I’m a devout Catholic. If only for the feeling of hope I get from knowing that there is an ultimate creator with a divine plan. That’s an amazing concept. There have been studies on babies who are not hugged, touched, or loved will die. So this idea that love is so primal to are existence, makes me think that idea of God is essential to our existence as humans. The idea that in any situation that we are in, we can still obtain that love that is essential, is reason enough for me to continue to hold onto my faith.
There has also been studies on sick patients who have faith versus those who don’t often recover better.
So with that kind of evidence in support, it seems ridiculous to deny it. People can say what they want, but at the end of the day, I’m the happy one.
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Swan
Guest
It’s hard to explain. I think I mentioned that I’m bipolar. I’ve had serious depression episodes since I was a teen, have even been hopitalized for suicidal depression. In that blackness there is no light. Looking around, I saw that there is no light for a lot of suffering folks out there. Faith not stong enough? Bigger lesson? Who knows. But when I look at my life and I look at the world and I read about what God is suppossed to be - it just doesn’t come together for me. Now, I know there are tomes of theological arugments to explain all the horrors of the world, life, etc. But I think it’s kind of like dancing in the dark, they are trying too hard, if you get my drift. IMO, there just is no explanation. It is what it is. So I started thinking about the Bible -remember, I’ve been taught this stuff since toddlerhood. I know I’m suppossed to just believe it “because we said so”. But I really look at the history of scripture, the gnostics and other “brands” of early Christianity, the way the Bible was put together, the folks involved, the circumstances, etc. And I come to the conclusion that well-meaning folks simply perpetuated a myth. The Old Test. was always a problem for me - it just screams “primitive people myth”. There are several really good books on the subject(s).
Anyway, I realized I just didn’t buy it any longer. Now, as I think I said, I do believe in the supernatural. I’ve had experiences and I’ve heard of many others I find credible. But I’ll admit that I have no clue what is out there and I don’t think it is really possible to know with our limited ability. So now I’m an agnostic.
So what do I say when folks tell me their “religious” experiences and expect that to convince me? Not much because it is not my place to question their experiences - I don’t like it when folks do that to me either. But they are all subjective - and in the end all “revealed” relgions are based on subjective experience (revelations to one or a limited group of folks who then ask everyone else to take it on faith). Since I don’t belive in heaven or hell, I’m a big advocate of the “whatever works for you” philosophy. I do belive in some kind of afterlife, with maybe a karmic dimension, possible reincarnation, and that our self/consciousness/souls evolve over time and on different planes of existence - this seems reasonable to me. But as I am the first to admit, I just don’t know.
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benedictus2
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Thanks very much for that Swan. I think my friend is in a similar situation as you, he just can’t put it in words quite like you do.It’s hard to explain. I think I mentioned that I’m bipolar. I’ve had serious depression episodes since I was a teen, have even been hopitalized for suicidal depression. In that blackness there is no light. Looking around, I saw that there is no light for a lot of suffering folks out there. Faith not stong enough? Bigger lesson? Who knows. But when I look at my life and I look at the world and I read about what God is suppossed to be - it just doesn’t come together for me. Now, I know there are tomes of theological arugments to explain all the horrors of the world, life, etc. But I think it’s kind of like dancing in the dark, they are trying too hard, if you get my drift. IMO, there just is no explanation. It is what it is. So I started thinking about the Bible -remember, I’ve been taught this stuff since toddlerhood. I know I’m suppossed to just believe it “because we said so”. But I really look at the history of scripture, the gnostics and other “brands” of early Christianity, the way the Bible was put together, the folks involved, the circumstances, etc. And I come to the conclusion that well-meaning folks simply perpetuated a myth. The Old Test. was always a problem for me - it just screams “primitive people myth”. There are several really good books on the subject(s).
Anyway, I realized I just didn’t buy it any longer. Now, as I think I said, I do believe in the supernatural. I’ve had experiences and I’ve heard of many others I find credible. But I’ll admit that I have no clue what is out there and I don’t think it is really possible to know with our limited ability. So now I’m an agnostic.
So what do I say when folks tell me their “religious” experiences and expect that to convince me? Not much because it is not my place to question their experiences - I don’t like it when folks do that to me either. But they are all subjective - and in the end all “revealed” relgions are based on subjective experience (revelations to one or a limited group of folks who then ask everyone else to take it on faith). Since I don’t belive in heaven or hell, I’m a big advocate of the “whatever works for you” philosophy. I do belive in some kind of afterlife, with maybe a karmic dimension, possible reincarnation, and that our self/consciousness/souls evolve over time and on different planes of existence - this seems reasonable to me. But as I am the first to admit, I just don’t know.
I think I now have a better understanding of where he’s coming from.
And though you may not believe in God, I do. Very much. So I will remember you in my prayers. Have been through some depression myself so I sort of know where you are coming from in a way.
Thanks a lot.
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elliejanba
Guest
I think this is the big issue that a lot of even well meaning Christians don’t understand about the Bible. That they think Jesus was sent to make us live in riches and never die and never get sick.
You know in the Hindu faith how people walk on coals without any pain? I think Jesus sort of links us to that, taking your mind off of the physical pain, but towards a higher point. That through all your plights, you have a leader that have went through that and more, who has seen the very worst, and has been treated the very worst. Now who are you to expect better than God’s own son? That’s what the man on the bloody cross is supposed to represent, a man who went through everything for us, so that we will have a better life. A visionary who led his life in seeking of something different than the status quo, he did not want a life of riches, of women, of comfort, but only a life honoring God.
Jesus went through his own mental darkness in the desert. 40 days without food and water, and the devil tormenting him through all of this. Isn’t that worst than a bout in a mental institution? Or any serious darkness that you might have envisioned yourself to have?
I go through my times, I was also diagnosed with depression, put in a mental institution. But it’s so weird that we both came out different ways. When I saw the people in there I realized I had no problems. I told that to the doctor, and he shipped me right out. I never went back, and probably never will. I still go through my bouts of depression, but remembering the institution and Jesus, makes me able to overcome it.
His life is an exemplary life, and he continually took himself out of situations, regardless of what others wanted, or what was expected. He is to me the ultimate rebel in society.
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benedictus2
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This is very beautiful. And it is true, too many so called Christian denominations preach the “Prosperity Gospel” and totally miss the point of the Gospel.
I don’t think however that the Gospel is about not feeling pain when there is pain (as the Hindus). I think it is about accepting and feeling the pain because in the same way that Christ’s suffering is redemptive, so our pain and suffering when offered up to Christ will be redemptive as well.
The way we see it though, having been gifted with the sight of faith will be very hard for someone who just does not see it.
So, as some practical thing to do, the next time the bout of depression comes about, let us offer the pain that comes with that for those who do not even have the solace of knowing that God is with them throughout this dark night.
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Peregrino
Guest
The complete lack of evidence. That is why I agree with you that faith is a gift. In some sense it is a miracle that I am a theist at all. I can’t explain it either.
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Swan
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It was thoughtful of you to share your story. I’ve gone through this twice - this coming and going of faith - it is interesting that both of the most serious depressive episodes were preceded by periods of devout faith. The first time was worse than the second in seriousness, at least I didn’t have to be hospitalized the second time. I’m not suggesting that life should be a bed of roses, only that in one’s darkest moments there be some hint of God’s presence. I just decided that if I got nothing in my darkest moments it was because there was nothing there. Any way you slice it, even if God was there and just didn’t help, the end result was I got no help. I’ve become very pragmatic since then. It a belief doesn’t work for me, I drop it. Life is hard enough without trying to make everything fit into a belief system that seems, at least to me, to have more holes in it than a Swiss cheese (sorry I couldn’t think of a less-worn comparison).
And the thing is, once I really analyzed my belief and the assumptions that went with it, I found it impossible to justify. I’m sure you are familiar with the arguments - some can be found in comparative religious studies (fascinating, and no, I’m not talking about Osiris), Biblical studies and history of Christianity studies (Bart Erman and Andrew D. Benson, for example). And, as I mentioned, I think apologists are dancing as fast as they can - that is, protesting too much. There is so much wordplay to try to make sense of something that, again IMO, just doesn’t make sense. It just doesn’t seem like it should be that hard, you know?
I think there is a built-in human component that needs to find meaning. Religion is a result of that search. I like the way the Buddhists think and I think they’ve got a lot to offer. We are each on our own path to enlightenment/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. I don’t think there is any one way to get there or any one God at the end of it (I am no atheist), but that’s about all I can say.
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M_Leakos
Guest
The parable of the Good Samaritan leads me to agree with you. Jesus asked who was truly the man’s neighbor, the one who cared for him or the ones who were of the same religion but didn’t stop for him. Of course it is the man who acted like a friend/neighbor.
Free will demands that there is true choice, even the choice of refusing God’s love.
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benedictus2
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Since you are no atheist, as you put it, are you agnostic or do you have some concept of God?I think there is a built-in human component that needs to find meaning. Religion is a result of that search. I like the way the Buddhists think and I think they’ve got a lot to offer. We are each on our own path to enlightenment/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. I don’t think there is any one way to get there or any one God at the end of it (I am no atheist), but that’s about all I can say.
Have you actually gone through a thinking process regarding this, i.e. on how you arrived at your belief.
If you are not agnostic so must have some concept of God, is this concept clear or fuzzy. Is he Creator and that was it or is He involved in his creation.?
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Swan
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I have thought about it - a lot. I really don’t believe in a creator per se. There is so much we don’t know about the universe - it could all be a natural series of events. There is a thread in the philosophy section dealing with the first cause and a fellow named Merry Athiest made some really good points on why the universe is no proof of a creator. The post was made in the past day or two. One of his points dealt with the question of what we mean by “god/God”. Maybe the universe was created by many gods, maybe the gods have moved on to other things, maybe what we refer to as a god is really totally natural and we just don’t understand it yet. There are so many “maybes” and I just have no way of knowing. I think I mentioned that I agree with some tenets of Buddhism. Basically, I think the universe/existence is way more vast can we can comprehend. I think there are various levels/planes of existence, various types of existence. There are “supernatural” energies/entities/gods out there. But like the Buddhists, I don’t think they are important. They aren’t personal gods. I think our sprit evolves over eons, I think karma plays a role in the speed of our progress. What are we progressing toward? Enlightenment, some sort of godlike state (note the small “g”)? Perhaps it is infinite. It is beyond our current ability to comprehend. So you could say I see a purpose in this life, I don’t think this is “it” as it were. But I find revealed religions to be extremely narrow in their interpretation of “out there” - the universe, existence, etc. I think mankind has created “God” in his own image, not the other way around.
If that is too vague, let me know and I’ll try again.
Also, since you are interested in former believers, there is a website you might really find helpful. There is a forum, a “testimony” section, and a reference/book section with book recommendations and links. The site is ex-christian.net. People post testimonies of why they left, discuss this and other issues, such as dealing with family and friends (coming out, as it were). The discussion and intellect level are pretty high and I think you might enjoy reading what others have to say. I find it to be quite enlightening. Some folks are now agnostic, some atheist, and some have gone to other belief systems.
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Peregrino
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Sure, but does God also not have a choice to damn those people that refuse God’s love? A merciful God, IMHO, would not choose to do so.
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