Does God Exist?

[benedictus2]

First off, I truly apologize for snapping at you. I thought I detected anger in your post and reacted accordingly. But I was wrong. So, I am really sorry.

Also in post #2 “the Church” was listed as an argument for God and you responded without any attacks at all.

Which is why I did not respond because as I had mentioned in another thread, I do not want arguments from the Bible or the Church as this begs the question.

That is my point. Catholics use this argument as their reason for believing in God more than any other, yet the “First Cause” does not match with the definition of God. Not mine, nor the one listed in the catechism.

I don’t think Catholics use this as their reason for their belief in God. Catholics and I think I am speaking for a great majority of us, believe in God and can’t really say why we do. It’s a gift. I only know of this argument because I studied it. However, there are I think those who believe in Christ who may have first believed in A “God”, the First Cause, and later on came to believe in the Trinity.

The First Cause does match the definition of God as Creator from whom all things ensued, just not the OTG as you defined it.

I am not sure as I have not read all arguments for it, whether anyone has drawn a line connecting the First Cause to the the Triune God as known to us now.

I understand the difference, and yet is is routinely used as an argument as if that god and the Catholic “God” were the same thing.

Did you not catch that I thought these were poor arguments?

I did not miss that you thought they were poor arguments. What I was trying to get at was that the way you have outlined the arguments is not how we use these arguments at all.

The First Cause is still the “Catholic God” in the end because there is only One God. What it does is prove that there is a Creator and Creator is one aspect of the Catholic God. So it is still the same God just narrowly known by His Function.

Just for future reference, I promise that I will be far more civil to you if you post an answer to a thread I start asking for the opinions of Catholics.

Or, I would, if I wasn’t currently putting you onto my ignore list.

I totally understand. That is okay.

 

[benedictus2]

Why not move the nurse out of the way? She wasn’t at fault, she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But lets move to another example. What about people born with terrible diseases? That’s not a cause (drink driver) and effect (dead nurse) issue at all. As you know I’m biploar - but there are many folks with worse mental illnesses than mine. I think I find mental illness the cruelest of all because it robs you or your ability to reason, to think in a rational way. Suicide is sometimes the result. My dad killed himself, I checked myself into the psych ward. So far, I’m still here. But the idea is often very appealing. Who does this benefit? Being so depressed (and void of reason) that God, if there was one, seemed so totally absent that a person puts a gun in his mouth and pulls the trigger. God can’t or won’t intervene. Sounds pretty sadistic to me.

This is from another thread and I think is sums it up nicely.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

I can answer the points you raised but I will be answering it based on my Christian perspective which I don’t think will do for you at all. It has a lot to do with the fall of man and the economy of salvation which even some Catholics do not really grasp. A lot of us believe without knowing why. But the thing is once you do believe, you really see.

The only example I can think of (although it is not a really good example) is a hologram. Some can stare at it for a long time and not see the 3D picture at all and yet it is there.

There is a different kind of seeing. It is like seeing with an inner eye. It is a knowing in your gut. You just know.

Like I know with a certainty that God is Love and yet I have come across Christians in this forum who only see God as this almighty powerfull being and do not even come to know His tenderness.

I do know though of some “Pauline” like conversions. Those who come to believe just like that after not having believed all their life.
Another wrote that he came to believe in God when he came to believe in the devil .

I don’t know what to say about the pain you are going through. I have gone through some depression but not quite what you have gone through and are going through now. I can’t even imagine the utter helplessness that you must feel All I can do is keep you in my prayers even though I know you don’t believe that it does any thing at all.

I would like to relate the story of two friends of mine. Both have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, one severe the other much less so.
The one with severe schizophrenia suffered from it for I think 19 years and still does. Often he needs to be hospitalized and sometimes the police come for him. But he says that since going back to the faith of his childhood and going to Mass every day, the episodes have eased and he actually feels better. My other friend says the same thing. They both say that it is hard to explain it to doctors who only want scientific evidence. Although he still suffers from it, it is not like before. He has come to accept his illness and in the process I think gained some peace. Some days people are warry of him but other times he is okay. Being around him has taught us, his friends, compassion. But he has also enriched our lives. Some may conclude that his life is utterly worthless, but we who are close to him know that this is way far from the truth.

I think people who suffer depression are those who do not live on the surface, so feel things deeply. In these days of too many plastic superficial people, I think that is in some way a positive thing.

 

[benedictus2]

I am only addressing what happens after we die. Certainly God has a choice in the “disposition of our case” after death…

But this is exactly why wrote about Grace and Free Will. God wants us to participate in our redemption. Christ did not have to die but God chose to effect salvation this way. And He knows best.

Most of us will die as we live although I do believe that at the point of death, sufficient grace is given for us to choose God. But if we have lived the life of a scoundrel for most of our lives, it gets harder to change our ways.

You know the saying the good die young? I think there is a lot of truth in that because God in His mercy is giving the scoundrels enough chances to turn over a new leaf .

Grace abounds. But we need to respond to it.

 

[Snowy]

I sometimes wonder what attracts atheists to this forum. I certainly don’t have any impulse to google for atheists’ forums so I can go and argue endlessly with them.

As a former atheist I know that the faithful hold the short end of the stick when it comes to proving anything other than their faith. Theology does wonders when it comes to reassuring those former atheists who want to believe without lobotomizing themselves, but if you don’t want to believe in the first place, no amount of reasoning will change your mind. The words of a theologian can plant a seed of faith in someone at the right time, but so can the words of a person born with Down’s syndrome.

Now I believe that no one who isn’t affected with pride and vanity can look at the sky without God being plainly evident to them. Atheist are very self-sufficient; they don’t need anyone to believe that they are alone. At least they’ll always have that song Wish You Were Here from Pink Floyd to sing their blues.

 

[Swan]

I can answer the points you raised but I will be answering it based on my Christian perspective which I don’t think will do for you at all. It has a lot to do with the fall of man and the economy of salvation which even some Catholics do not really grasp. A lot of us believe without knowing why. But the thing is once you do believe, you really see.

The only example I can think of (although it is not a really good example) is a hologram. Some can stare at it for a long time and not see the 3D picture at all and yet it is there.

There is a different kind of seeing. It is like seeing with an inner eye. It is a knowing in your gut. You just know.

Like I know with a certainty that God is Love and yet I have come across Christians in this forum who only see God as this almighty powerfull being and do not even come to know His tenderness.

I do know though of some “Pauline” like conversions. Those who come to believe just like that after not having believed all their life.
Another wrote that he came to believe in God when he came to believe in the devil .

I don’t know what to say about the pain you are going through. I have gone through some depression but not quite what you have gone through and are going through now. I can’t even imagine the utter helplessness that you must feel All I can do is keep you in my prayers even though I know you don’t believe that it does any thing at all.

I would like to relate the story of two friends of mine. Both have been diagnosed with schizophrenia, one severe the other much less so.
The one with severe schizophrenia suffered from it for I think 19 years and still does. Often he needs to be hospitalized and sometimes the police come for him. But he says that since going back to the faith of his childhood and going to Mass every day, the episodes have eased and he actually feels better. My other friend says the same thing. They both say that it is hard to explain it to doctors who only want scientific evidence. Although he still suffers from it, it is not like before. He has come to accept his illness and in the process I think gained some peace. Some days people are warry of him but other times he is okay. Being around him has taught us, his friends, compassion. But he has also enriched our lives. Some may conclude that his life is utterly worthless, but we who are close to him know that this is way far from the truth.

I think people who suffer depression are those who do not live on the surface, so feel things deeply. In these days of too many plastic superficial people, I think that is in some way a positive thing.

I just want to thank you for your patience, compassion and charity.

 

[nicolep]

I do believe in God. My ultimate reason is very simple and almost child-like. Obviously, a lot more goes into it than just this, but at the end of the day, this is what goes through my mind.

What if there is no God? What has it hurt me to be a better person while I lived? Who have I hurt by being the best Christian I could? Will I somehow be upset that I lived a lie my entire life? No, I’ll just die. So while I’m alive, I’m going to accept the love from God that is freely given. During hard times, I won’t be alone. During good times, I won’t be alone. During the regular times, I won’t be alone. Even if it’s just ignorant bliss, I’ll take it.

 

[benedictus2]

I just want to thank you for your patience, compassion and charity.

You are more than welcome .

 

[Cinette]

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
– G. K. Chesterton

 

[benedictus2]

I sometimes wonder what attracts atheists to this forum. I certainly don’t have any impulse to google for atheists’ forums so I can go and argue endlessly with them.

I have wonderred that too. But here they are and I think they have contributed much to make the discussions more interesting. A certain protestant named Richard Abanez said in one of his posts that the reason he was here was because there is not much growth in conversing all the time with people who think the same as he does. And I have found that to be true as well.

God works in mysterious ways and and this moment may even be writing straight with crooked lines.

As a former atheist I know that the faithful hold the short end of the stick when it comes to proving anything other than their faith. Theology does wonders when it comes to reassuring those former atheists who want to believe without lobotomizing themselves, but if you don’t want to believe in the first place, no amount of reasoning will change your mind. The words of a theologian can plant a seed of faith in someone at the right time, but so can the words of a person born with Down’s syndrome.

Now I believe that no one who isn’t affected with pride and vanity can look at the sky without God being plainly evident to them. Atheist are very self-sufficient; they don’t need anyone to believe that they are alone. At least they’ll always have that song Wish You Were Here from Pink Floyd to sing their blues.

I believe and yet I am not so sure that had I been born into an atheist family that I would have believed (knowing myself, that I tended to question everything). It is only later in life that I learned more and more to relinquish my own attempts at understanding things. I cannot know whether my thought processes would be the same given different circumstances.

But you are right it takes humility to acknowledge that there is God. But growing in humility is in itself a lifelong process.

Those who believe can do much. By praying for the grace to believe for those who don’t.

 

[benedictus2]

I do believe in God. My ultimate reason is very simple and almost child-like. Obviously, a lot more goes into it than just this, but at the end of the day, this is what goes through my mind.

What if there is no God? What has it hurt me to be a better person while I lived? Who have I hurt by being the best Christian I could? Will I somehow be upset that I lived a lie my entire life? No, I’ll just die. So while I’m alive, I’m going to accept the love from God that is freely given. During hard times, I won’t be alone. During good times, I won’t be alone. During the regular times, I won’t be alone. Even if it’s just ignorant bliss, I’ll take it.

You’ve just triggered a rather interesting argument for God in my mind but too fuzzy at the moment. Thank you.

 

[Cinette]

, " Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand."

• St Augustine
  

 

[benedictus2]

“If there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
– G. K. Chesterton

That is a cute one.

 

[Spirithound]

I see your point. I think we might each be talking about a different God. Personally, I would hope that your God wouldn’t respect my decision and would grant me mercy…

My friend, I think I would take this as an indication that you do not reject God, and you are not in the habit of committing mortal sins. May a thousand blessings be upon you!

Does a parent allow a child to step in front of a speeding truck out of respect for their freewill? This doesn’t make sense. Nor does a “sane” parent require the death of their child to satisfy their own plan. Certainly an “all powerful” parent could create a plan that does not require the death of their own child. This is a twisted form of “love” at best. If God is perfect then certainly God understands this better than I…

A loving parent would not allow their child to step out into traffic. However, we are more than children, are we not? The Church does not ask children below the age of reason to partake of the sacrament of reconciliation, these children are not able to “step in front of a truck”, as it were, but we are, and we have been well warned of the traffic! Remember that “full knowledge” is one of the criteria for a mortal sin.

Not necessarily; it certainly could be that the child disbelieves that a truck is coming…

An all powerful, merciful God would not need to sacrifice Jesus in order to accomplish “the plan”. In my eyes this seems both twisted and wrong…

Jesus’s sacrifice was not necessary for our salvation. God could have reconciled us in any way He chose, but He chose this way, so show the depth of His love for us by making the ultimate sacrifice for us!

 

[Cinette]

I see your point. I think we might each be talking about a different God. Personally, I would hope that your God wouldn’t respect my decision and would grant me mercy…

Peregrino - the word means Pilgrim in Portuguese.

If you are Portuguese I fully understand why you are confused in relation to God. I do. Salazar and his ilk did not serve Portugal well.

Just remember that A Nossa Senhora de Fatima is part of a very special event with strong messages and a fabulous witness.

If you are a pilgrim pray and you will find the truth - Jesus said “Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be open unto you, ask and you shall receive” (not necessarily in that order). There is so much to discover.

God bless you
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

My friend, I think I would take this as an indication that you do not reject God, and you are not in the habit of committing mortal sins. May a thousand blessings be upon you!

A loving parent would not allow their child to step out into traffic. However, we are more than children, are we not? The Church does not ask children below the age of reason to partake of the sacrament of reconciliation, these children are not able to “step in front of a truck”, as it were, but we are, and we have been well warned of the traffic! Remember that “full knowledge” is one of the criteria for a mortal sin.
Jesus’s sacrifice was not necessary for our salvation. God could have reconciled us in any way He chose, but He chose this way, so show the depth of His love for us by making the ultimate sacrifice for us!

Not only did Jesus suffer and die on the cross for our sins but he laid the foundations of His Church, inspired and appointed his Apostles and provided us with all the resources we need to help us alone our journey through life. It is wonderful what Jesus has done for us. All we need to do is seek and we shall find!

Adeus
Cinette