Does God intend man to become gods?

[mikekle]

We may not be able to become true Gods, but when we reach the technological ability to prevent death, by some of the methods Ive described, that will have a HUGE impact on God and Satan! People will no longer be going to the afterlife and remaining here on earth, so we will have gained a God-ly ability.

Im sure many others will agree with me, given enough time, eventually scientists will likely come up with technology that we consider to be literally impossible today, Just imagine what the world will be like in another 500 yrs…1000yrs, 10,000yrs!!! Im positive if we were given a glimpse of life in those time periods, we would be floored by what is common place to them.

But the question remains, would God step in if man developed such technology, as to prevent death, and would allow people to continually transfer to ‘avatars’? I dont think he would intervene, as he has not done so with any other technology.

 

[Gorgias]

We may not be able to become true Gods, but when we reach the technological ability to prevent death, by some of the methods Ive described, that will have a HUGE impact on God and Satan! People will no longer be going to the afterlife and remaining here on earth, so we will have gained a God-ly ability.

Nah… no impact on God. Huge impact on us (can you imagine trying to steer clear of sins for 1000 years instead of 60 or 70 or 80? ), but no impact on God: eventually, the world will come to an end, and the second coming of Jesus will happen, and all those who are still alive will be judged – just like the rest of us who had previously died…

But the question remains, would God step in if man developed such technology, as to prevent death, and would allow people to continually transfer to ‘avatars’? I dont think he would intervene, as he has not done so with any other technology.

I agree: God wouldn’t “step in”. Why would He? Such a technology wouldn’t impact God’s plan. (After all, what’s the qualitative difference between existing medical technology that lengthens our span of days, and technology that replaces various parts of our bodies with bio-mechanical ‘replacement parts’?)

I’m not sure I buy the ‘avatar’ thing, though, depending on what you mean by that…

 

[Cavaradossi]

As I have said, mystical thoughts, aspirations are not to be taken literally in all instances.

The fact is that most of these sayings of the fathers are not taken from mystical works. In the case of St. Athanasius, for example, his phrase, “God became man that we might become god,” appears not in a mystical work, but in a theological refutation of Arianism. St. Hippolytus’ teaching that we come to participate in a share of God’s attributes likewise comes from a theological work on the refutation of all heresies, not from a mystical work. St. John of Damascus similarly teaches that we become divine and partake of God’s divinity, not in a mystical work, but in one of the first systematic theological works, his Exposition on the Orthodox Faith.

No matter how expressed, we will never become God or a part of God.

To become a part of God would be impossible because God has no parts. Rather, by virtue of the hypostatic union, the actuality (energeia in Greek) of God comes to pervade human nature, such that true deification becomes possible. By grace we become what God is by nature (which is to say by virtue of the enhypostatization of the energeia of God in human hypostases, we come to have by grace the same attributes which are proper to God according to His own nature, attributes like immortality, incorruptibility, goodness, life, knowledge, wisdom, etc.), but we do not become what God is by identity of essence (which is to say that we do not have our substance transformed into the divine substance).

We will become as perfect a reflection of the Divine as our individual condition will permit, but that simpley means we will become reflections of the Divine perfection.

One can only reflect the divine if the has the divine in some sense moving through him. Otherwise, the most one could be said to have is a created similitude to the divine, which would not truly be reflecting the divine perfection

This means we will be much more perfect than we are now. Still, we will not become God.

But according to the fathers, we do become God, not according to a transformation of our substance into the substance of God (which would be impossible), but according to our receiving by grace attributes which are proper to God according to His nature.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

The fact is that most of these sayings of the fathers are not taken from mystical works. In the case of St. Athanasius, for example, his phrase, “God became man that we might become god,” appears not in a mystical work, but in a theological refutation of Arianism. St. Hippolytus’ teaching that we come to participate in a share of God’s attributes likewise comes from a theological work on the refutation of all heresies, not from a mystical work. St. John of Damascus similarly teaches that we become divine and partake of God’s divinity, not in a mystical work, but in one of the first systematic theological works, his Exposition on the Orthodox Faith.

To become a part of God would be impossible because God has no parts. Rather, by virtue of the hypostatic union, the actuality (energeia in Greek) of God comes to pervade human nature, such that true deification becomes possible. By grace we become what God is by nature (which is to say by virtue of the enhypostatization of the energeia of God in human hypostases, we come to have by grace the same attributes which are proper to God according to His own nature, attributes like immortality, incorruptibility, goodness, life, knowledge, wisdom, etc.), but we do not become what God is by identity of essence (which is to say that we do not have our substance transformed into the divine substance).

One can only reflect the divine if the has the divine in some sense moving through him. Otherwise, the most one could be said to have is a created similitude to the divine, which would not truly be reflecting the divine perfection

But according to the fathers, we do become God, not according to a transformation of our substance into the substance of God (which would be impossible), but according to our receiving by grace attributes which are proper to God according to His nature.

Yes, by grace we become pleasing to God, so He showers us with blessings, inspirations, insights, visions, speaks to the soul letting it know it is loved as an adopted son or daughter.

Linus2nd.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

From the Catechism:

Footnote 80 reads “St. Athanasius, De inc. 54, 3: PG 25, 192B.”
Footnote 81 reads “St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc. 57, 1-4.”

I would hardly say that Aquinas was a ‘mystic’ or that he and the Catechism are “not to be literally construed.” However, you make a good point: some, seeing this statement and only looking at it on its surface, may find it objectionable. To these, we answer: no, we don’t become God, per se; rather, we gain a share in God’s divinity.

To share in God’s Divinity is to imitate God in holiness, it is not to be a part of His nature or substance. That is what we have to keep in mind. Otherwise there would be nothing to separate Catholicism from Mormonism.

Linus2nd

 

[EIF5A]

So when people become partakers of the divine nature/undergo theosis, do they become holy and unable to sin?

I don’t know about divine power or nature, but if I never have to feel remorse, guilt, and wretchedness for all my evil intent, thoughts, and deeds, and if I get to be in the presence of God who is the source of all goodness and have fellowship with all the other believers in harmony, that would be great.

I shudder at the thought that I might possibly by God’s grace and mercy become a “god”…

Surely, the holy angels, the seraphim, and the cherubim are above us, no?

 

[Cavaradossi]

So when people become partakers of the divine nature/undergo theosis, do they become holy and unable to sin?

I don’t know about divine power or nature, but if I never have to feel remorse, guilt, and wretchedness for all my evil intent, thoughts, and deeds, and if I get to be in the presence of God who is the source of all goodness and have fellowship with all the other believers in harmony, that would be great.

We will become incapable of sinning in the eschaton because our wills will have been fully reoriented to work harmoniously with the divine will, in a manner akin to how the two wills of Christ do not exist in opposition, but in a state of union and harmony. Sin is not something which is inherent to our will nor to our nature.

I shudder at the thought that I might possibly by God’s grace and mercy become a “god”…

Surely, the holy angels, the seraphim, and the cherubim are above us, no?

According to some fathers, man is meant for greater glory than the angels, because in the race of men, the fundamental divisions of the universe are brought into unity.

 

[jimmy]

This title may be confusing, not sure where, but I believe the bible mentions something along the lines of mankind becoming God-like, or men becoming gods.

I only ask about this after reading another thread on here about dinosaurs, and how scientists are getting close to be able to create extinct species, and many scientists think within the next 100 or so years, bringing back dinosaurs will be possible, they are pretty close today, but still not quite there technologically.

Further more, last week, I was watching the news, and they were doing a story on a doctor/scientist who is working on somehow transferring someones ‘essence’ or conscience to a type of computer, they are doing this by learning more and more about how our brains work. The people involved in this said eventually they will be able to transfer someones essence or self, to a computer or mechanical body, I know it sounds crazy, but apparently its not that far off.

This made me wonder, if at some point in the future, even if its 500 yrs, what would happen if mankind were able to do this and someone who is getting old, they could just transfer themselves to another body, therefore defeating death. The only reason we die is because our bodies wear out within 80 yrs for most, but if science could transfer the person to another ‘body’, would this not stop their death?

This is hypothetical of course, but I realize scientists are currently working on this and probably will reach this ability at some point in the future, it appears that mankind will have become just like a god, as being able to control death, or even prevent it.

This sounds like that show Caprica, which was a prequal to Battlestar Galactica. They made a robot conscious, with all the memory and consciousness of a girl who had died (the daughter of the scientist).

Frankly, it sounds far fetched. What makes me who I am, and conscious of myself? If two people have the exact same brain structure, would that mean they would be conscious of eachother as they are conscious of themselves? Would they be telepathic? How can you reproduce a persons consciousness? I am very conscious of myself, and I know that I exist. If they ‘transferred my consciousness’ to a computer based organism, would that be me, or just a copy of my memories?

 

[jimmy]

To become a sharer in the Divinity simply means that we will reflect the Divine as perfectly as possible, according for our individual merits.

Thus. As I have said, mystical thoughts, aspirations are not to be taken literally in all instances. No matter how expressed, we will never become God or a part of God. We will become as perfect a reflection of the Divine as our individual condition will permit, but that simpley means we will become reflections of the Divine perfection. This means we will be much more perfect than we are now. Still, we will not become God.

Linus2nd

Then Athanasius and Gregory Nazianzen were both wrong about the divinity of the Son and the Holy Spirit respectively. It is therefore suitable that Jesus was homoi-ousios (or of a similar nature) with the Father, and it is suitable that the Spirit is also homoi-ousios with the Father. Athanasius’ argument against the Arians was an error because Peter’s statement should be interpreted figuratively, rather than literally as Athanasius had thought.

Therefore Arianism is the truth, because if Athanasius was wrong, then Arius is right, since our whole theological perspective is based on Athanasius’ arguments.

 

[jimmy]

Yes, by grace we become pleasing to God, so He showers us with blessings, inspirations, insights, visions, speaks to the soul letting it know it is loved as an adopted son or daughter.

Linus2nd.

Insights, visions and tongues isn’t what the Christian life leads to. If you study the fathers, you will see that they saw literal participation in the divine nature as an essential tenet of the faith. It is the basis for the arguments of Athanasius, Gregory of Nazianzen, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor and etc. God became man and partook of our nature, and in the process he shared his nature with man. Through grace (or the divine energies) man becomes infallible, immortal, impassible, and etc. These are divine attributes, which men can participate in. It isn’t an immitation of God; it is an experience and participation in God.

The fact is that most of these sayings of the fathers are not taken from mystical works. In the case of St. Athanasius, for example, his phrase, “God became man that we might become god,” appears not in a mystical work, but in a theological refutation of Arianism. St. Hippolytus’ teaching that we come to participate in a share of God’s attributes likewise comes from a theological work on the refutation of all heresies, not from a mystical work. St. John of Damascus similarly teaches that we become divine and partake of God’s divinity, not in a mystical work, but in one of the first systematic theological works, his Exposition on the Orthodox Faith.

Add Gregory Nazianzen to that, who uses the concept in his theological Orations in refutation of the pneumatamachians (Spirit-fighters), who denied the divinity of the Spirit. He applied the same logic Athanasius used in defense of the divinity of the Son, to the divinity of the Spirit. If the Spirit isn’t God by nature, then He can’t make men gods. The Spirit can’t give what He doesn’t have. So either the Spirit is God or divinization is impossible.

 

[mikekle]

This sounds like that show Caprica, which was a prequal to Battlestar Galactica. They made a robot conscious, with all the memory and consciousness of a girl who had died (the daughter of the scientist).

Frankly, it sounds far fetched. What makes me who I am, and conscious of myself? If two people have the exact same brain structure, would that mean they would be conscious of eachother as they are conscious of themselves? Would they be telepathic? How can you reproduce a persons consciousness? I am very conscious of myself, and I know that I exist. If they ‘transferred my consciousness’ to a computer based organism, would that be me, or just a copy of my memories?

I know it sounds far-fetched, but the scientists they interviewed claimed they knew what made each us unique and actually know what part of the brain makes us…US, as in our conscious, self, and they claim to be able to transfer this to a literal computer, They did try to explain this, but it was way over my head. and remember this is only the beginning, think of what they will be able to do in the next 50-100 yrs!!!

 

[jimmy]

I know it sounds far-fetched, but the scientists they interviewed claimed they knew what made each us unique and actually know what part of the brain makes us…US, as in our conscious, self, and they claim to be able to transfer this to a literal computer, They did try to explain this, but it was way over my head. and remember this is only the beginning, think of what they will be able to do in the next 50-100 yrs!!!

It was probably sensationalism, because the truth is that they know very little about the brain and how it functions. They have no idea what makes us conscious and each of us unique. There are ideas about memory, and other functions of the brain but they don’t know what consciousness is. They can’t reproduce the most basic bacteria or virus, but they are going to reproduce the consciousness of a man?

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Yes. As you have said.

Do you have anything with magisterial weight, though, that supports your statement, “don’t take this paragraph from the catechism literally”…?

Thanks!

G.

Yes, see the CCC, paras 1020-1029. It is clear that will retain our own personality but that we will be enlightend by the Beatific Vision, God will make Himself immediately present to our intellects. Thus we will not become Gods.

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Yes, according to the teachings of multitudes of the Fathers, if one leads a holy life, he will become a sharer of God’s divinity, and not merely in some “mystical” sense, but in the sense that he will take upon himself the attributes of God. I think the fathers speak for themselves:

“When we have come to know the true God, both our bodies and our souls will be immortal and incorruptible. We shall enter the kingdom of heaven, because while we lived on earth we acknowledged heaven’s King. Friends of God and coheirs with Christ, we shall be subject to no evil desires or inclinations, or to any affliction of body or soul, for we shall have become divine. It was because of our human condition that God allowed us to endure these things, but when we have been deified and made immortal, God has promised us a share in his own attributes.”

St. Hippolytus. On the Refutation of All Heresies.

“It was God alone Who could become something other than before, and yet not cease to be what He had ever been; Who could shrink within the limits of womb, cradle, and infancy, yet not depart from the power of God. This is a mystery, not for Himself, but for us. The assumption of our nature was no advancement for God, but His willingness to lower Himself is our promotion, for He did not resign His divinity but conferred divinity on man.”

St. Hilary of Poitiers. De Trinitate IX, 4.

“The Incarnation is summed up in this, that the whole Son, that is, His manhood as well as His divinity, was permitted by the Father’s gracious favor to continue in the unity of the Father’s nature, and retained not only the powers of the divine nature, but also that nature’s self. For the object to be gained was that man might become God.”

St. Hilary of Poitiers. De Trinitate IX, 38.

“The Word says, mentioning His own gift of grace: “I said, You are all sons of the Highest, and gods; but you shall die like men.” He speaks undoubtedly these words to those who have not received the gift of adoption, but who despise the incarnation of the pure generation of the Word of God, defraud human nature of promotion into God, and prove themselves ungrateful to the Word of God, who became flesh for them. For it was for this end that the Word of God was made man, and He who was the Son of God became the Son of man, that man, having been taken into the Word, and receiving the adoption, might become the son of God. For by no other means could we have attained to incorruptibility and immortality, unless we had been united to incorruptibility and immortality. But how could we be joined to incorruptibility and immortality, unless, first, incorruptibility and immortality had become that which we also are, so that the corruptible might be swallowed up by incorruptibility, and the mortal by immortality, that we might receive the adoption of sons.”

St. Irenaeus. Adversus Haereses III, 19.

“As the Lord, putting on the body, became man, so we men are deified by the Word as being taken to Him through His flesh, and henceforward inherit life everlasting.”

St. Athanasius. Orationes contra Arianos III, 34.

“From the Spirit comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of the mysteries of faith, insight into the hidden meaning of Scripture, and other special gifts. Through the Spirit we become citizens of heaven, we are admitted to the company of the angels, we enter into eternal happiness, and abide in God. Through the Spirit we acquire a likeness to God; indeed, we attain what is beyond our most sublime aspirations – we become God.”

St. Basil. On the Holy Spirit IX.

“Even now, as man, Christ makes intercession for my salvation, for He still possesses the body which He assumed in order to make me God by virtue of His Incarnation.”

St. Gregory of Nazianzus. Fourth Theological Oration.

“Man, however, being endowed with reason and free will, received the power of continuous union with God through his own choice, if indeed he should abide in goodness, that is in obedience to his Maker. Since, however, he transgressed the command of his Creator and became liable to death and corruption, the Creator and Maker of our race, because of His bowels of compassion, took on our likeness, becoming man in all things but without sin, and was united to our nature. For since He bestowed on us His own image and His own spirit and we did not keep them safe, He took Himself a share in our poor and weak nature, in order that He might cleanse us and make us incorruptible, and establish us once more as partakers of His divinity.”

St. John of Damascus. Exposition on the Orthodox Faith IV, 13.

The teachings and sayings of the Fathers do not supplant the constant teaching of the Church which has been handed on by Tradition from the Apostles and is based on their authority only. The Church has received the Truth of Divine Revelation from the Apostles, not from the " Fathers, " some of whom held views which were highly controversial, even though they were Saints.

See the CCC, paras 1020-1029. It is clear that will retain our own personality but that we will be enlightend by the Beatific Vision, God will make Himself immediately present to our intellects. Thus we will not become Gods. So inspite of what some of the Fathers may have said in their more exuberant moments, we will never be Gods. Period.

 

[jimmy]

Yes, see the CCC, paras 1020-1029. It is clear that will retain our own personality but that we will be enlightend by the Beatific Vision, God will make Himself immediately present to our intellects. Thus we will not become Gods.

Linus2nd

Of course we maintain our personality, because we are human persons. We are human persons with a human nature. Through Grace, we recieve the divine nature, and are made god as all the fathers said. It is a mirror of Christology. Christ became man and assumed the whole of human nature, yet he remains a divine person. We, who have a human nature and person, recieve the divine nature through Christ, yet we remain human persons. The person is a broader concept than nature. The fathers spoke of the human nature as being enhypostasized by the person of Christ. It is similar with us. The divine energies/Grace is enhypostasized within the individual human person.

 

[jimmy]

The teachings and sayings of the Fathers do not supplant the constant teaching of the Church which has been handed on by Tradition from the Apostles and is based on their authority only. The Church has received the Truth of Divine Revelation from the Apostles, not from the " Fathers, " some of whom held views which were highly controversial, even though they were Saints.

See the CCC, paras 1020-1029. It is clear that will retain our own personality but that we will be enlightend by the Beatific Vision, God will make Himself immediately present to our intellects. Thus we will not become Gods. So inspite of what some of the Fathers may have said in their more exuberant moments, we will never be Gods. Period.

I am curious how you think this “Tradition” was handed on? You are willing to ignore the fathers, and then say you are following tradition? They are the bearers of tradition, and there is no tradition without them. They are quire clear on the matter. If the CC contradicts the fathers, they contradict the tradition of Christianity. And if they contradict the tradition they are in clear error.

 

[Cavaradossi]

The teachings and sayings of the Fathers do not supplant the constant teaching of the Church which has been handed on by Tradition from the Apostles and is based on their authority only. The Church has received the Truth of Divine Revelation from the Apostles, not from the " Fathers, " some of whom held views which were highly controversial, even though they were Saints.

See the CCC, paras 1020-1029. It is clear that will retain our own personality but that we will be enlightend by the Beatific Vision, God will make Himself immediately present to our intellects. Thus we will not become Gods. So inspite of what some of the Fathers may have said in their more exuberant moments, we will never be Gods. Period.

That is not tradition, which you are advocating, but magisterial positivism. Two very different things.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

This title may be confusing, not sure where, but I believe the bible mentions something along the lines of mankind becoming God-like, or men becoming gods.

I only ask about this after reading another thread on here about dinosaurs, and how scientists are getting close to be able to create extinct species, and many scientists think within the next 100 or so years, bringing back dinosaurs will be possible, they are pretty close today, but still not quite there technologically.

Further more, last week, I was watching the news, and they were doing a story on a doctor/scientist who is working on somehow transferring someones ‘essence’ or conscience to a type of computer, they are doing this by learning more and more about how our brains work. The people involved in this said eventually they will be able to transfer someones essence or self, to a computer or mechanical body, I know it sounds crazy, but apparently its not that far off.

This made me wonder, if at some point in the future, even if its 500 yrs, what would happen if mankind were able to do this and someone who is getting old, they could just transfer themselves to another body, therefore defeating death. The only reason we die is because our bodies wear out within 80 yrs for most, but if science could transfer the person to another ‘body’, would this not stop their death?

This is hypothetical of course, but I realize scientists are currently working on this and probably will reach this ability at some point in the future, it appears that mankind will have become just like a god, as being able to control death, or even prevent it.

No, we will never be gods or even LIKE gods, we will always remain human. And as far as transferring a person’s soul into a computer or artificial body, that’s a scary thought! But who knows what will be possible in the future, God may just give man over to his own folly trapping himself on this planet instead of the soul leaving in death, but that will never allow man to escape judgement, in the end man **will **be judged.

If mankind did reach the technological ability to prevent people from dying and entering into the afterlife, via use of ‘avatars’ or some other kind of method, does anyone think God would step in and stop this from happening?

It is amazing scientists are even talking seriously about such a topic in modern times, and even though we dont have this ability now, it is pretty much a given, eventually mankind will develop such technologies, and likely other things we cant even begin to imagine today.

Im not saying its right or wrong, just saying this will happen at some point, unless God directly intervenes, which I highly doubt, as he has not done so in the past with any kind of technology breakthroughs.

He might and He might not. He may just give man over to his folly. If that does happen, it’s not going to make things better, the earth will become VERY crowded.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

We may not be able to become true Gods, but when we reach the technological ability to prevent death, by some of the methods Ive described, that will have a HUGE impact on God and Satan! People will no longer be going to the afterlife and remaining here on earth, so we will have gained a God-ly ability.

Im sure many others will agree with me, given enough time, eventually scientists will likely come up with technology that we consider to be literally impossible today, Just imagine what the world will be like in another 500 yrs…1000yrs, 10,000yrs!!! Im positive if we were given a glimpse of life in those time periods, we would be floored by what is common place to them.

But the question remains, would God step in if man developed such technology, as to prevent death, and would allow people to continually transfer to ‘avatars’? I dont think he would intervene, as he has not done so with any other technology.

No there wouldn’t be any impact on God because man would only put off death but when God is ready He will return and judge all. Period. That would not allow man to escape judgement. Plus in the beginning man was supposed to live forever before sin and death, and also man used to live for 500 years in pre-flood days. So no, it wouldn’t mess up God’s plan at all.

 

[Skye_Ariel]

I know it sounds far-fetched, but the scientists they interviewed claimed they knew what made each us unique and actually know what part of the brain makes us…US, as in our conscious, self, and they claim to be able to transfer this to a literal computer, They did try to explain this, but it was way over my head. and remember this is only the beginning, think of what they will be able to do in the next 50-100 yrs!!!

A real live Matrix? People’s souls uploaded into a computer system? Sounds crazy but who knows? That still won’t allow mankind to escape from God or judgement when the time comes. He knows how to get all souls when He’s ready for them. God lives outside time, He already saw everything mankind will ever even think of doing. Mankind will never be smarter than God. Even the angels in Heaven could not outsmart God and He made them higher than us.